Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

but the body dies in the day, 1100 goes beyond.

Perhaps. The precedent is there. 900 years is only 8% short of 1100 sooo....

 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Those who are 'caught up' receive IMMORTALITY.  Everyone else has to suffer the first death because if they don't, then they too would be alive and remaining. 
and if everyone was caught up without the wicked having suffered the first death,  then there would be evil people receiving immortality.

I don't see this is accurate. No one doubts Zech 14 is the Return of the King at the end of the age to mete out wrath and save His people. The Lord returns to fight against those who fought against Israel, and they don't all die.

  Behold:

"And it shall come to pass, that

 every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

This is in the millennial kingdom. Now it can be disputed that these who are alive after the wrath is complete live normal lives to 80-100 years, they live for the entire millennial reign, or as some think, it's just Jews; it's quite clear part of the makeup of this population is at least someone from all the nations that came against Jerusalem.

So I would say, No. Not everyone dies from the side of unbelief when the gathering occurs and when wrath pours out and Jesus defeats His enemies. 

And in truth, when the Signs manifest and Jesus appears to every eye, there will be no unbelievers from that moment forward. 

 

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

That is why everyone who has taken the mark has to suffer the first death.  

 

Scripture doesn't say this unless you know of a passage, of which I am unaware, that declares all who take the mark are destined to die the first death. I don't see it.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, garee said:

I would offer from a Amil position .The white robes in that parable represent born again believers from all the nations of the world .

Why can't the offering be from a Jesus perspective? Is a doctrine greater that the Way, the Truth and the Life? I deny all positions except the view of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit leading to all truth.

Mankind has only led me astray. 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Except it cannot. The reference in Rev 7:13-14 is to the very thing Jesus said in Matt 24:15-22 and in Mark 13:14-20

No, you just wrongly assume it is, the Seals are not a part of God's Wrath, they are Jesus opening the Scrolls of Wrath, (the 7 Trumps are the Wrath in full, we know 7 = Divine Completion). Just before the 7th Seal is open in Rev. 8 we get a look at the Jews who repented Fleeing Judea just after the 1290 events, and we also get a flash up to the Christian Church in heaven who were Raptured Pre Trib., the same ones we saw in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9-10 before any seals were ever opened. The ones REDEEMED by the Blood of Jesus.

Again, its your misdiagnoses of who they are brother. Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 tells us this is not possible, but the word GREAT entraps you into this mindset.

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

and it only begins after the A of D, which A of D is the midpoint of the final week.

Yes, it "BEGINS" after the AoD, but not at the AoD which is the 1290, God's Wrath begins at the 1260, at the exact same point in time God allows the A.C. to go forth conquering as The Beast. Why would God WARN the Jews at the 1290 if His Wrath was going to fall at the same time? What good is the WARNING? Did you think that through brother? The Jews who repented will have a 30 day window to flee Judea. The Beast only comes to power at the 1260, who comes 30 days after the 1290. Men's IDEAS have you stuck on the 1290 being the coming Anti-Christ, he is not, AND THAT is not of God, He doesn't confuse us brother. The 1290 can not be the midway point of a 2520 day period of time, that is "elementary my dear Watson". Its simple math.

When you get to heaven and find out ole Rev Man was 100 percent correct on the 1335, 1290 and 1260 its going to blow your mind that you had all the keys to understanding all things end times and you refused to heed it. BUT...Then you cant say, but Lord, why didn't you tell me. The Lord works through men.

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

So no, the great tribulation cannot refer to 2000 years but must refer to the period of time after the A of D, in the last week, the duration of which is truncated from the end of the week.

So, by you conflating what the word means and the GREAT TRIBULATION Saints as seen in Rev. 7:9-16 with the words Jesus used in Matt. 24:15-21, you have confused yourself as per unto who or what the words great tribulation are about in those Revelation verses. They are about the Church who came out of great tribulation, now if you want to deny the church was built on its BLOOD then you are denying what is said in Rev. 12.:11 says we overcame him by the blood of the lamb and loved not our lives unto DEATH. 

Again, the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves you are in error on this, no person from the 70th week is going to be raptured and no person, besides Elijah and Moses, goes to heaven until the Pre Trib Rapture. The DEAD are raised at the exact same time as those living in Christ Jesus. But of course GREAT has to be GREATEST EVER right? Nope, its just your assumption, put it all together.

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Honestly, the pretrib doctrine should be called, "The Great Misinterpretation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to now, nor ever will be again".

On 9/8/2023 at 6:56 AM, Revelation Man said:

You will see soon, it amazes me this simple truth is so easily manipulated by Satan unto other Christians, I guess that is why he is called an Angel of light.

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Dude. When Jesus says, " 21For at that time there will be great tribulation,"

Then goes on immediately after defining and describing the nature of that great tribulation saying," unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." it's a time that never has been, in any capacity or quantity, which the world itself has never seen. 

When Jesus says GREAT here he describes it himself as the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, in Rev. 7:9-16 they are said to come out of Great Tribulation, not the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, you are the one who can not put this simple puzzle together, why? Because like most people you allow your preconceived bias to dominate your understandings. You can't call upon the 5th Seal words of Jesus because it proves your thesis is in error. You can't look at the TIMING of the Rev. 20:4 Saints being raised and Judged because it proves your understanding of Rev. 7:9-16 has to be in error. All you can do is insist GREAT can only mean GREATEST EVER. Trying to insist the the Church Age Saints dying is not GREAT TRIBULATION !! By the way 2000 is GREATER than 7. To deny that the Church Age is tribulation IMHO, is to say Jesus was lying.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 was GREAT TRIBUATION, millions of our brothers were murdered by Rome, set on fire at the stake, please do not say this was not Great Tribulation brother. Just don't, you can't win the debate anyway, the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 defeats your thesis. By the way, many of our brothers are still in great tribulation in these Muslim countries, Jesus says ALL TIME on earth is Tribulation. Great Tribulation is not Greatest Ever Troubles. In Matt. 24:15-21 Jesus described that Great Tribulation as the GREATEST EVER, so don't try to say because he used the word Great it has to mean GREATEST EVER, in that passage he described it as such, in Rev. 7:9-16 it just called Great Tribulation, and its the Church Age Saints, Raptured Pre Trib. and when you get to heaven the Lord will show you in a flash, all of your misconceptions  were centered around you not understanding the timing of the Rapture. 

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Clearly Jesus also thought that wasn't going to be enough for the pretrib misinterpreters so He also said, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." So it's so bad all flesh might be dead and no one would be saved!

With those qualifying statement defining 'THE great tribulation' any reasonable mind would conclude it's the worst, greatest crisis ever, without equal before or after.

You might want to be carful when saying Jesus said something he didn't say, just saying. Jesus knows there is a Pre 70th Week Rapture. PERIOD. 

As per the troubles CUT SHORT, that only means he will kill the A.C./Beast after his 1260 day rule, as PRE PLANED long ago. 

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Rev 20:4-5 demands the living reigning with Christ for 1000 years have as life accomplishments staring down the power and authority of the beast and not flinching. 

That isn't pretrib anything.

Rev 20:4 PROVES those who die in the 70th week only gets raised AFTER Jesus' Return, you know this is true, thus you know those in Rev. 7:9-16 can not be from the 70th week, but this proves a PRE TRIB Rapture. Alas, shudder the thought of a Pre Trib Rapture. 

On 9/9/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

You need to amend the above.

I saw it as A-OK.

When you get to Heaven and find out ole Rev. Man was right, there wont be envy in Heaven, or even an I told you so attitude, so I am getting it in now.

I TOLD YOU SO.............

If anyone is offended by this message I am truly sorry...

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Revelation Man

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure. 

The Gospel of John, 20th chapter, seems to show Jesus with first a noncorporeal body, then later with a corporeal body, including the nail holes and the wound in His side, after He ascended to our Father.

It doesn't look to me as though Jesus had some new body waiting for Him since He still bore the wounds of the Cross.

In any case it seems that when He appeared to Mary and said, “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ” 

And then a week later,

"Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”

 Thomas was encouraged to touch Jesus, that there was a change in Jesus bodily nature, but still retaining the scars of crucifixion. 

The problem I see with your position on Rev 6:11 and the 5th seal martyrs is you are equating didómi with periballó. The first is like an award, a bestowing, the second is to "cast around, wrap a garment about, put on, I put on to myself, clothe myself, dress; "

In Rev 6:11 they martyrs aren't wearing the robes, they were awarded the robes, hence the term didómi

In Rev 7:13 it is said of the group they, "are arrayed in white robes?" These are dressed as periballó denotes, not just in possession, but wearing. In Rev 6:11 they have only been awarded the robes and it is not said they are wearing them.

Could the 5th seal martyrs of Rev 6:11 be wearing white robes as you suggest? Therefore proving your point that these are whole new bodies unconnected with the flesh that died on earth? Because of course if they are wearing white robes they must have bodies, yes? Of course that's possible.

The problem is Rev 6, the whole chapter, doesn't say that, anywhere. The other issue is God is precise in prophetic language. He doesn't say one thing and mean another in prophetic utterance. He used didomi because that's the very idea He needed to convey. He used periballo as that was the correct idea at that point in the prophecy; and they do not mean the same thing.

So it's like adding to a definition meaning that it doesn't carry in the normal, explicit, everyday reading. You shouldn't do that. None of us should do that. 

 If you want our raising up to be exactly like Christs you will have to figure out a way to get GOD to be our DAD and a way for us to DESCEND then ascend then descend then ascend again.  
 

HIS FLESH left in the grave WOULD BE WAY DIFFERENT than ours.  Shoot, they were even searching for the bones of Moses, could you imagine what would have happened to HIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY?   

I am not going to even try to figure out all that, don't think there is enough written.  Well, most likely there is, so I will say my eyes have not had that information made available to them yet.  If it ever is, I'll be sure to let you know.  


So when I say we will be like Him it is IN A BODY, not as air. 

And why present or award 'air' a robe?   Then again, I would think the crying out would make it known they had MOUTHS and the wanting to be avenged that they retained their own memories...so award or present I don't believe is the point as much as maybe those who washed their robes vs those who were 'awarded' them???  BUT IDK. 

So I checked out this clothed thing and well it didn't help but I don't think my heart is in it right now.   BUT I do APPRECIATE the approach quite a bit.  As for Rev 6 not saying it anywhere, when you get to Rev 6 just make sure you have brought the foundation laid down by 1 Cor 15 and problem solved.  

And check out the angel taking John everywhere.  He tells us who he is where he is from and HE HAS FEET.  Just saying so do the elders and angels.  We are made IN IMAGE.  NO WHERE is it ever hinted at that we STOP.  Quite the opposite when we are told 2 bodies one earthy one heavenly.  Since we only know of 2 realms right now, that pretty much covers it.  I'm telling you if you want off the merry go round then let the living be the living and the dead be the dead and what is written be what is meant.  If we did that then we could use logic and common sense like 'you give bodies robes not air' which with all the false doctrines makes it impossible to do.  


I think I may need to visit this again later on I feel like I am all over the place but don't want to get rid of it just the same.  
 

Matthew 6:29 V-AIM-3S
GRK: δόξῃ αὐτοῦ περιεβάλετο ὡς ἓν
NAS: his glory clothed himself like
KJV: was not arrayed like one
INT: glory of him was clothed as one

Matthew 6:31 V-ASM-1P
GRK: ἤ Τί περιβαλώμεθα
NAS: or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
KJV: or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
INT: or with what shall we be clothed

Matthew 25:36 V-AIA-2P
GRK: γυμνὸς καὶ περιεβάλετέ με ἠσθένησα
NAS: naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick,
KJV: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick,
INT: naked and you clothed me I was sick

Matthew 25:38 V-AIA-1P
GRK: γυμνὸν καὶ περιεβάλομεν
NAS: You in, or naked, and clothe You?
KJV: naked, and clothed [thee]?
INT: naked and clothed [you]

Matthew 25:43 V-AIA-2P
GRK: καὶ οὐ περιεβάλετέ με ἀσθενὴς
NAS: Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick,
KJV: naked, and ye clothed me not:
INT: and not you did clothe me sick

Mark 14:51 V-RPM/P-NMS
GRK: συνηκολούθει αὐτῷ περιβεβλημένος σινδόνα ἐπὶ
NAS: was following Him, wearing [nothing but] a linen sheet
KJV: having a linen cloth cast about
INT: was following him having cast a linen cloth about

Mark 16:5 V-RPM/P-AMS
GRK: τοῖς δεξιοῖς περιβεβλημένον στολὴν λευκήν
NAS: at the right, wearing a white
KJV: the right side, clothed in a long white
INT: the right clothed with a robe white

Luke 12:27 V-AIM-3S
GRK: δόξῃ αὐτοῦ περιεβάλετο ὡς ἓν
NAS: his glory clothed himself like
KJV: was not arrayed like one
INT: glory of him was clothed as one

Luke 23:11 V-APA-NMS
GRK: καὶ ἐμπαίξας περιβαλὼν ἐσθῆτα λαμπρὰν
NAS: and mocking Him, dressed Him in a gorgeous
KJV: mocked [him], and arrayed him
INT: and having mocked [him] having put on apparel splendid

John 19:2 V-AIA-3P
GRK: ἱμάτιον πορφυροῦν περιέβαλον αὐτόν
KJV: head, and they put on him a purple
INT: a robe purple cast around him

Acts 12:8 V-AMM-2S
GRK: λέγει αὐτῷ Περιβαλοῦ τὸ ἱμάτιόν
NAS: And he said to him, Wrap your cloak
KJV: Cast thy garment about thee, and
INT: he says to him Wrap around [you] the cloak

Revelation 3:5 V-FIM-3S
GRK: νικῶν οὕτως περιβαλεῖται ἐν ἱματίοις
NAS: will thus be clothed in white
KJV: the same shall be clothed in
INT: overcomes thus will be clothed in garments

Revelation 3:18 V-ASM-2S
GRK: λευκὰ ἵνα περιβάλῃ καὶ μὴ
NAS: so that you may clothe yourself, and [that] the shame
KJV: that thou mayest be clothed, and
INT: white that you might be clothed and not

Revelation 4:4 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: πρεσβυτέρους καθημένους περιβεβλημένους ἐν ἱματίοις
NAS: sitting, clothed in white
KJV: elders sitting, clothed in white
INT: elders sitting clothed in garments

Revelation 7:9 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: τοῦ ἀρνίου περιβεβλημένους στολὰς λευκάς
NAS: the Lamb, clothed in white
KJV: the Lamb, clothed with white
INT: the Lamb clothed with robes white

Revelation 7:13 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: Οὗτοι οἱ περιβεβλημένοι τὰς στολὰς
NAS: to me, These who are clothed in the white
KJV: which are arrayed in white
INT: These who are clothed with the robes

Revelation 10:1 V-RPM/P-AMS
GRK: τοῦ οὐρανοῦ περιβεβλημένον νεφέλην καὶ
NAS: out of heaven, clothed with a cloud;
KJV: from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and
INT: heaven clothed with a cloud and

Revelation 11:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: διακοσίας ἑξήκοντα περιβεβλημένοι σάκκους
NAS: and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
KJV: days, clothed in sackcloth.
INT: two hundred [and] sixty clothed in sackcloth

Revelation 12:1 V-RPM/P-NFS
GRK: οὐρανῷ γυνὴ περιβεβλημένη τὸν ἥλιον
NAS: a woman clothed with the sun,
KJV: a woman clothed with the sun,
INT: heaven a woman clothed with the sun

Revelation 17:4 V-RPM/P-NFS
GRK: γυνὴ ἦν περιβεβλημένη πορφυροῦν καὶ
NAS: The woman was clothed in purple
KJV: the woman was arrayed in purple and
INT: woman was clothed in purple and

Revelation 18:16 V-RPM/P-NFS
GRK: μεγάλη ἡ περιβεβλημένη βύσσινον καὶ
NAS: city, she who was clothed in fine linen
KJV: city, that was clothed in fine linen,
INT: great which [was] clothed with fine linen and

Revelation 19:8 V-ASM-3S
GRK: αὐτῇ ἵνα περιβάληται βύσσινον λαμπρὸν
NAS: It was given to her to clothe herself in fine
KJV: that she should be arrayed in fine linen,
INT: to her that she could be clothed in fine linen bright

 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's an analogy, not a factual statement. Paul isn't saying the grain which sprouted from the seed is wholly different, it's matured, reaching the full potential from what was already contained within the seed, which cannot be reached without nurturing and growth over a period of time.

A famer doesn't sow corn and harvest oats, or sow wheat and harvest flax. A farmer harvests the mature crop from the seed. 

We are changed in the blink of an eye.  One realm to the next.  

If we are going to do the whole seed planted and grow and harvest then my take on that is

when we die with Christ our 'seed' is planted in this earthen body and when we feed off the Word as it proceeds from the mouth of God and body and blood of Christ,

our plant grows and is fully MATURED by the time this soil is no longer any good to us so it joins back with the rest of earth and while our mature plant ascends. 
 

 

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you notice, Paul is saying the same body is raised. The change in the body that was sown into the earth happens when the very same body is raised. The very body sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness and in the natural is what is changed when raised. 

It is sown, it is raised. Same body. The difference is only that the body is raised from the grave, not two bodies.

If you are NOT INTO learning GODS WORD as it proceeds out of His mouth or not reading it precept on precept.... then SURE you probably could get it to read like that, but the fact of the matter is,

THAT INFO comes AFTER

some men will ask...with what body....so the words Paul penned have already explained NOT THE BODY that will be....

Please go read my PROVING posts in general discussion and prophecy...if you feel called to that anyhow.  If not, I totally understand and I do understand what you are saying and why, I just don't agree. Everyone always wanting to separate what God has made one in one way or another.  

Maybe I put myself in Gods shoes to often but

IF MY DESIRE was that all come to repentance AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT, I wouldn't be 'removing my army' just when the other side started to REALLY fight dirty, leaving all my souls on their own

any more than I would

only use A PORTION of my priest and judges to rule and reign on the Lords Day.  Seems to me GOD has lots of common sense and KNOWING HOW STUPID we are, I think HE would know His whole arsenal will be needed to accomplish that desire. 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

So I would say, No. Not everyone dies from the side of unbelief when the gathering occurs and when wrath pours out and Jesus defeats His enemies. 

And in truth, when the Signs manifest and Jesus appears to every eye, there will be no unbelievers from that moment forward. 

OK, lets see which of the stronger verses prevail.   

And AGREED, all knees shall bow, but not all souls will come to LOVE His way.  So at that point believing won't be the issue, WORK will. 


 
Back to 'survivors' still PARTAKING in the flesh and blood body during the Lords day or not.

Matthew 13:49 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

That is two groups

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

that is two groups 

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 

I figured I should stop there and let you catch up and/or pass me up.   Looking forward to them...




 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, you just wrongly assume it is, the Seals are not a part of God's Wrath, they are Jesus opening the Scrolls of Wrath, (the 7 Trumps are the Wrath in full, we know 7 = Divine Completion). Just before the 7th Seal is open in Rev. 8 we get a look at the Jews who repented Fleeing Judea just after the 1290 events, and we also get a flash up to the Christian Church in heaven who were Raptured Pre Trib., the same ones we saw in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9-10 before any seals were ever opened. The ones REDEEMED by the Blood of Jesus.

Nope. Trumps are not wrath, not called wrath either. Bowls are wrath, they are called wrath. See the difference?

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, its your misdiagnoses of who they are brother. Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 tells us this is not possible, but the word GREAT entraps you into this mindset.

Yes, it "BEGINS" after the AoD, but not at the AoD which is the 1290, God's Wrath begins at the 1260, at the exact same point in time God allows the A.C. to go forth conquering as The Beast. Why would God WARN the Jews at the 1290 is His Wrath was going to fall at the same time? What good is the WARNING? Did you think that through brother? The Jews who repented will have a 30 day window to flee Judea. The Beast only comes to power at the 1260, who comes 30 days after the 1290. Men's IDEAS have you stuck on the 1290 being the coming Anti-Christ, he is not, AND THAT is not of God, He doesn't confuse us brother. The 1290 can not be the midway point of a 2520 day period of time, that is "elementary my dear Watson". Its simple math.

When you get to heaven and find out ole Rev Man was 100 percent correct on the 1335, 1290 and 1260 its going to blow your mind that you had all the keys to understanding all things end times and you refused to heed it. BUT...Then you cant say, but Lord, why didn't you tell me. The Lord works through men.

That is whole lot of nothing I said about anything. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, by you conflating what the word means and the GRREAT TRIBULATION Saints as seen in Rev. 7:9-16 with the words Jesus used in Matt. 24:15-21, you have confused yourself as per unto who or what the words great tribulation are about in those Revelation verses. They are about the Church who came out of great tribulation, now if you want to deny the church was built on its BLOOD then you are denying what is said in Rev. 12.:11 says we overcame him by the blood of the lamb and loved not our lives unto DEATH. 

It's a pretty simple calculus. They came out great tribulation, great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the week, great tribulation only lasts till the Lord returns, so a very short time, relatively. Doesn't require any big brain or deep thought to just listen and trust.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves you are in error on this, no person from the 70th week is going to be raptured and no person, besides Elijah and Moses, goes to heaven until the Pre Trib Rapture. The DEAD are raised at the exact same time as those living in Christ Jesus. But of course GREAT has to be GREATEST EVER right? Nope, its just your assumption, put it al together.

Jesus said it was 'unmatched from the beginning of the world till now, never to be seen again". So yes, greatest ever by the words of Jesus Christ, King of kings, Savior of the whole world.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You will see soon, it amazes me this simple truth is so easily manipulated by Satan unto other Christians, I guess that is why he is called an Angel of light.

When Jesus says GREAT here he describes it himself as the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, in Rev. 7:9-16 they are said to come out of Great Tribulation, not the GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION, you are the one who can not put this simple puzzle together, why? Because like most people you allow your preconceived bias to dominate your understandings. Yu can't call upon the 5th Seal words of Jesus because it proves your thesis is in error. You can't look at the TIMING of the Rev. 20:4 Saints being raised and Judged because it proves your understanding of Rev. 7:9-16 has to be in error. All you can do is insist GREAT can only mean GREATEST EVER. Trying to insist the the Church Age Saints dying is not GREAT TRIBULATION !! By the way 2000 is GREATER than 7. To deny that the Church Age is tribulation IMHO, is to say Jesus was lying.

It's not duration, it's the pressure. You should look up the defining characteristics of megas thlipsis. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Nah. That's not megas thlipsis. If it was meant to be megas thlipsis Jesus would have said so since He it's His words in John and in Matthew. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, those seen in Rev. 7:9-16 was GREAT TRIBUATION, millions of our brothers were murdered by Rome, set on fire at the stake, please do not say this was not Great Tribulation brother. Just don't, you can't win the debate

So megas carries a few meanings but the base meaning  is, 'in the widest sense'. 

I don't see that as 'the widest sense' even as it was locally terrible. That and the fact that Jesus is slated to arrive to put and end to megas thlipsis, and He did not arrive, then Rome and 70 AD were NOT megas thlipsis. Remember, it's supposed to be "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." 

Roman persecution[which is not entirely accurate] was surpassed by WWII and the Jews, ergo, Roman persecution was not "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." And Jesus didn't arrive which He said he will do, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days:"

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

anyway, the 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 defeats your thesis. By the way, many of our brothers are still in great tribulation in these Muslim countries, Jesus says ALL TIME on earth is Tribulation. Great Tribulation is not Greatest Ever Troubles. In Matt. 24:15-21 Jesus described that Great Tribulation as the GREATEST EVER, so don't try to say because he used the word Great it has t mean GREATEST EVER, in that passage he described it as such, in Rev. 7:9-16 it just called Great Tribulation, and its the Church Age Saints, Raptured Pre Trib. and when you get to heaven the Lord will show you in a flash, all of your misconceptions  were centered around you not understanding the timing of the Rapture. 

Sure, sure.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You might want to be carful when saying Jesus said something he didn't say just saying. Jesus knows there is a Pre 70th Week Rapture. PERIOD. 

I guess when I copy and paste the words from the Berean Study Bible, or any of the hundred versions at my fingertips, I feel pretty safe knowing I have done Him no disservice, but rather glorified Him.

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As per the troubles CUT SHORT, that only means he will kill the A.C./Beast after his 1260 day rule, as PRE PLANED long ago. 

Rev 20:4 PROVES those who die in the 70th week gets raised AFTER Jesus' Return, you now this is true, thus you know those in Rev. 7:9-16 can not be from the 70th week, but this proves a PRE TRIB Rapture. Alas, shudder they thought of a Pre Trib Rapture. 

Yes, immediately after Jesus return, which is after the A of D and after GT, a GT which only endures for less that 3.5 years; and His return and the gathering occur immediately before wrath, which wrath begins only after the gathering at His coming, sometime in the last half of the week. 

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I saw it as A-OK.

When you get tom Heaven and find out ole Rev. Man was right, there wont be envy in Heaven, or even nan I told you so attitude, so I am getting it in now.

I TOLD YOU SO.............

If anyone is offended by this message I am truly sorry...

We'll know way before that. 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 If you want our raising up to be exactly like Christs you will have to figure out a way to get GOD to be our DAD and a way for us to DESCEND then ascend then descend then ascend again.  

Just pointing out the comparison of Jesus being recognized and still bearing the scars of crucifixion. So then the same body, just the nature of the existence of the body has changed, an enhancement, a body that now lasts in the Spirit, forever. 

An interesting point is that John saw the Lamb in heaven, 'as it had been slain'. It's hard to be unequivocal about it but it seems Jesus still bore evidence of having died in the same body He had on earth, and the same body John saw in the throne room. 

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HIS FLESH left in the grave WOULD BE WAY DIFFERENT than ours.  Shoot, they were even searching for the bones of Moses, could you imagine what would have happened to HIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY?   

Idk. It's said he was fully God in the flesh. Same as our flesh. He ate, slept, and bled. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And why present or award 'air' a robe?   Then again, I would think the crying out would make it known they had MOUTHS and the wanting to be avenged that they retained their own memories...so award or present I don't believe is the point as much as maybe those who washed their robes vs those who were 'awarded' them???  BUT IDK. 

Because the language is precise. This is what God says, it's not a journal article which can or should be disputed and critically autopsied to find errors. 

If the most high God said in the prophecy 'didomi' in one section, then in another said 'periballo', then that's what He meant. Those terms have two very different concepts and God knew exactly what He did and said and what John saw and recorded. I'm not going to make assumptions to fit what I want to believe.

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So I checked out this clothed thing and well it didn't help but I don't think my heart is in it right now.   BUT I do APPRECIATE the approach quite a bit.  As for Rev 6 not saying it anywhere, when you get to Rev 6 just make sure you have brought the foundation laid down by 1 Cor 15 and problem solved.  

And check out the angel taking John everywhere.  He tells us who he is where he is from and HE HAS FEET.  Just saying so do the elders and angels.  We are made IN IMAGE.  NO WHERE is it ever hinted at that we STOP.  Quite the opposite when we are told 2 bodies one earthy one heavenly.  Since we only know of 2 realms right now, that pretty much covers it.  I'm telling you if you want off the merry go round then let the living be the living and the dead be the dead and what is written be what is meant.  If we did that then we could use logic and common sense like 'you give bodies robes not air' which with all the false doctrines makes it impossible to do.  

 

I accept the foundation as being one body for each person and that same body being changed from one state to another. It's not impossible for God to make a change from mortal to immortality in the same body. He took away immortality in the beginning at the rebellion and the fall of man, God can restore that condition. Think of Enoch and Elijah, never died, didn't see the death of the flesh nor the corruption of the grave. They were translated and transformed to be in heaven with the Father in the same bodies which they lived in on earth. 

I'm sorry you don't like the 'souls under the altar' in Rev 6. 

psuché: breath, the soul

Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual."

In the context of the prophecy these are just souls as it's said, "of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" The bodies are dead and the spirit which gave life to the flesh is under the altar.

This can only be souls as the text says, souls. So, the breath of life which animates the flesh is what is under the altar. In contrast, we later see, in Rev 7, people with bodies standing about the throne.

I also don't think it impossible to communicate with God in the soul/spirit form of existence apart from a fleshy body. We don't even know what a spirit form really looks like or what attributes it has. It's probably a noncorporeal form of the flesh, not some amorphous, floating wisp. 

But I don't know about that. No one does. We just tend to make stuff up from experience and perception that we can grasp, it makes many things less frightening for us.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Diaste

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We are changed in the blink of an eye.  One realm to the next.  

If we are going to do the whole seed planted and grow and harvest then my take on that is

when we die with Christ our 'seed' is planted in this earthen body and when we feed off the Word as it proceeds from the mouth of God and body and blood of Christ,

our plant grows and is fully MATURED by the time this soil is no longer any good to us so it joins back with the rest of earth and while our mature plant ascends. 
 

No. 

Consider, then, the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the message of the kingdom but does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sownd along the path.

20The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

22The seed sown among the thorns is the one who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23But the seed sown on good soil is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and produces a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.”

The seed is the word of God, not the flesh. Per Jesus Christ, the King of kings. The seed is the seed of the Word and since Jesus said it, no one can convince me otherwise.

That's what Paul is talking about as well. Paul isn't going to contradict the king.

But, Paul is also bringing up the idea of the change of nature of the flesh at the resurrection. 

I know you don't like that, but the body and the spirit are intertwined forever. 

 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If you are NOT INTO learning GODS WORD as it proceeds out of His mouth or not reading it precept on precept.... then SURE you probably could get it to read like that, but the fact of the matter is,

Seems pretty judgmental and not based on the facts. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't listen to the Word and hear Him. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THAT INFO comes AFTER

some men will ask...with what body....so the words Paul penned have already explained NOT THE BODY that will be....

Please go read my PROVING posts in general discussion and prophecy...if you feel called to that anyhow.  If not, I totally understand and I do understand what you are saying and why, I just don't agree. Everyone always wanting to separate what God has made one in one way or another.  

Maybe I put myself in Gods shoes to often but

IF MY DESIRE was that all come to repentance AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT, I wouldn't be 'removing my army' just when the other side started to REALLY fight dirty, leaving all my souls on their own

any more than I would

only use A PORTION of my priest and judges to rule and reign on the Lords Day.  Seems to me GOD has lots of common sense and KNOWING HOW STUPID we are, I think HE would know His whole arsenal will be needed to accomplish that desire. 


 

 I definitely don't understand.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OK, lets see which of the stronger verses prevail.   

This is a hermeneutic and interpretive error. There are no stronger verses, just facts contained in the verses. All the facts from all relevant verses or passages must be considered. It's cherry picking to use only a portion, a prevalent formal logical fallacy, especially in prophetic interpretation.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And AGREED, all knees shall bow, but not all souls will come to LOVE His way.  So at that point believing won't be the issue, WORK will. 


 
Back to 'survivors' still PARTAKING in the flesh and blood body during the Lords day or not.

Matthew 13:49 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

That is two groups

Sure.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

that is two groups 

Sure.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 - And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Yes. It's good evidence. However, this isn't a court where the prosecution and defense present their opposing view on the evidence and concoct a story that benefits their side. We are children of our Father and as such we seek the truth of what our Father says. 

Or we should.

What you cite must be coupled and sifted together with other important, relevant passages to see the whole picture. 

Sure, Jesus is taking vengeance. Sure the great supper of the Lord fills the bellies of the carrion eaters, but no where in scripture does it say every person left on earth during wrath is wiped out with no living person left. Zech 14 confirms there are people left and they consist of all the nations that came against Jerusalem.

Hence, even as God and Jesus are defeating their enemies they don't wipe out every living body of flesh. That didn't even happen during the flood as the Nephilim were on the earth after the flood. That didn't happen to Egypt during the Exodus, or at Carchemish, which God declared to be a day of the Lord. 

So unless you can find a passage where it's prophesied God destroys every living, breathing, bag of bones called mankind, then it doesn't happen.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I figured I should stop there and let you catch up and/or pass me up.   Looking forward to them...