Shilohsfoal Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Diaste said: This is a hermeneutic and interpretive error. There are no stronger verses, just facts contained in the verses. All the facts from all relevant verses or passages must be considered. It's cherry picking to use only a portion, a prevalent formal logical fallacy, especially in prophetic interpretation. Sure. Sure. Yes. It's good evidence. However, this isn't a court where the prosecution and defense present their opposing view on the evidence and concoct a story that benefits their side. We are children of our Father and as such we seek the truth of what our Father says. Or we should. What you cite must be coupled and sifted together with other important, relevant passages to see the whole picture. Sure, Jesus is taking vengeance. Sure the great supper of the Lord fills the bellies of the carrion eaters, but no where in scripture does it say every person left on earth during wrath is wiped out with no living person left. Zech 14 confirms there are people left and they consist of all the nations that came against Jerusalem. Hence, even as God and Jesus are defeating their enemies they don't wipe out every living body of flesh. That didn't even happen during the flood as the Nephilim were on the earth after the flood. That didn't happen to Egypt during the Exodus, or at Carchemish, which God declared to be a day of the Lord. So unless you can find a passage where it's prophesied God destroys every living, breathing, bag of bones called mankind, then it doesn't happen. Just so you know,the survivors of the nations that come against Jerusalem are mentioned living in the promised land (the area of land between the Euphrates and the Nile,) in yet another chapter.I highlighted part of some of them being rescued,saved. As in zech 14,Egypt is mentioned and also the plague. Isaiah 19 18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.[a] 19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them. 23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing[b] on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.” It is my belief the survivors of the ten nations that attack the prostitute are those being spoken of.These are the nations between the Euphrates river and the Nile. The five cities of Egypt being spoken of in Israel 19:18 above would be on the east bank of the Nile river and therefore in the land promised to the saints of God. The cruel master which reigns over Egypt in Isaiah 19:4 corresponds to Daniel 11:42 ,and the savior that rescues some of the Egyptians corresponds to the timing of Daniel 12:1. Daniel 11:42 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. Daniel 12:1 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Edited September 10, 2023 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Diaste said: Just pointing out the comparison of Jesus being recognized and still bearing the scars of crucifixion. So then the same body, just the nature of the existence of the body has changed, an enhancement, a body that now lasts in the Spirit, forever. An interesting point is that John saw the Lamb in heaven, 'as it had been slain'. It's hard to be unequivocal about it but it seems Jesus still bore evidence of having died in the same body He had on earth, and the same body John saw in the throne room. Again, I AGREE Jesus raised up in a flesh body that bore the marks of a corruptible body YET we are told again and again our natural body goes back to the dust from where it came. We are only PARTAKERS of the flesh and blood body. We have to bodies one made with hands THAT DISSOLVES and another made without hands a body that God gives as He sees fit. We don't sow the body that will be. How ever you need to get around that all I can say is it isn't written as you put it forth to be. You want a sinful dead corruptible body to be re'born or brought back together again and have GOD blow into those unclean dead bodies...so be it BUT IN THE END, no matter what you believe THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED WHEN CHRIST RETURNS ARE 'MORTAL, LIABLE TO DEAD, NO OPERATIONAL IN THE WAYS OF GOD'. which happens to be the EXACT OPPOSITE OF SOMEONE who never dies, who is NOT SUBJECT to the 2nd death, who IS operational in the ways of God I DIDN'T PICK THE WORDS, GOD DID. I just believe them as they are written. I don't JUDGE them against what I know or don't know I simply take them as TRUTH and go from there. I don't care if I am the only one on the whole planet who believes this because the moment in my life that matters is WHEN I STAND BEFORE HIM and HE asks me WHY I believe as I do. My reply OVER AND OVER AGAIN will be because YOU WROTE....and I believed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Diaste said: This can only be souls as the text says, souls. So, the breath of life which animates the flesh is what is under the altar. In contrast, we later see, in Rev 7, people with bodies standing about the throne. if the breath that animates THE BODY is under there, then the body is under there. Otherwise it would be back in GOD, right? Why would GOD have His breath under the altar? Why not keep it simple? Why not have common sense prevail? Rightly dividing, seems it comes in stages also. First it is between people and lands and times and then one day it is rightly dividing between the dead and the dead. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7 KJV WHEN WE ARE TOLD "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" what is it that takes hold of your thoughts to make them go to well then 'unclean dead sinful flesh and blood bodies that have gone to corruption' CAN/WILL be raised up in glory? DOES THAT SEEM RIGHT or RIGHTEOUS ON ANY LEVEL? "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV THE ONE AND ONLY TIME A 'CORPSE' IS RECORED as being raised up THAT I personally have been able to find...and even HERE where it would be so easy to use the SAME WORD it isn't. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19 KJV 4191. muth Strong's Concordance muth: to die Original Word: מוּת Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: muth Phonetic Spelling: (mooth) Definition: to die 5038. nebelah Strong's Concordance nebelah: a carcass, corpse Original Word: נְבֵלָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: nebelah Phonetic Spelling: (neb-ay-law') Definition: a carcass, corpse 7496. rapha ► Strong's Concordance rapha: shades, ghosts Original Word: רָפָא Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: rapha Phonetic Spelling: (raw-faw') Definition: shades, ghosts plural shades, ghosts (by most connected with above √, as sunken, powerless, ones, StaG. i.420; Phoenician רפאם); — Wisdom Literature and late, name of dead in She'ôl, with article ׳הָר Job 26:5, elsewhere nearly = proper name: ׳ר Isaiah 14:9 (in Sh®°ôl), Isaiah 26:4 ("" מֵתִים), Psalm 88:11 ("" id.), Proverbs 2:18 ("" מָוֶת), Proverbs 9:18 (in עִמְקֵי שְׁאוֺל), קְהַל רְפָאִים Proverbs 21:16; of righteous Israel Isaiah 26:19 earth shall cast forth ׳ר ("" מֵתֶיךָ). dead, deceased From rapha' in the sense of raphah; properly, lax, i.e. (figuratively) a ghost (as dead; in plural only) -- dead, deceased. 2 Peter 1:13-14 - Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 1 Peter 1:4 - To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. another way in which GOD sees our 'flesh and blood bodies' after death, just as a point of reference of where I am coming from. 1828. domen ► Strong's Concordance domen: dung Original Word: דֹּמֶן Part of Speech: Noun Masculine Transliteration: domen Phonetic Spelling: (do'-men) Definition: dung דֹּ֫מֶן noun masculine dung (Arabic ) always in this form and always of corpses, lying on ground as offal 2 Kings 9:37; Jeremiah 8:2; Jeremiah 9:21; Jeremiah 16:4; Jeremiah 25:33; Psalm 83:11. 2 Kings 9:37 HEB: נִבְלַ֣ת אִיזֶ֗בֶל כְּדֹ֛מֶן עַל־ פְּנֵ֥י NAS: of Jezebel will be as dung on the face KJV: of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face INT: and the corpse of Jezebel dung on the face Psalm 83:10 HEB: דֹּ֑אר הָ֥יוּ דֹּ֝֗מֶן לָאֲדָמָֽה׃ NAS: Who became as dung for the ground. KJV: at Endor: they became [as] dung for the earth. INT: En-dor became dung the ground Jeremiah 8:2 HEB: וְלֹ֣א יִקָּבֵ֔רוּ לְדֹ֛מֶן עַל־ פְּנֵ֥י NAS: or buried; they will be as dung on the face KJV: nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face INT: or buried dung on the face Jeremiah 9:22 HEB: נִבְלַ֣ת הָֽאָדָ֔ם כְּדֹ֖מֶן עַל־ פְּנֵ֣י NAS: will fall like dung on the open KJV: shall fall as dung upon the open INT: the corpses of men dung on the open Jeremiah 16:4 HEB: וְלֹ֣א יִקָּבֵ֔רוּ לְדֹ֛מֶן עַל־ פְּנֵ֥י NAS: or buried; they will be as dung on the surface KJV: neither shall they be buried; [but] they shall be as dung upon the face INT: or buried dung on the surface Jeremiah 25:33 HEB: וְלֹ֣א יִקָּבֵ֔רוּ לְדֹ֛מֶן עַל־ פְּנֵ֥י NAS: or buried; they will be like dung on the face KJV: nor buried; they shall be dung upon INT: or buried dung on the face Maybe I am missing what you are trying to convey...IDK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 10 hours ago, Diaste said: I also don't think it impossible to communicate with God in the soul/spirit form of existence apart from a fleshy body. We don't even know what a spirit form really looks like or what attributes it has. It's probably a noncorporeal form of the flesh, not some amorphous, floating wisp. Abraham, rich man and Lazarus. Either sowing seeds of confusion or speaking to a truth. 9 hours ago, Diaste said: I know you don't like that, but the body and the spirit are intertwined forever. Mark 14:58 - We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. It isn't a matter of like or not like, it is a matter you don't sow the body that will be, there are two bodies. One quickens the other, God gives a body made without hand 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 283. amiantos ► Strong's Concordance amiantos: undefiled Original Word: ἀμίαντος, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: amiantos Phonetic Spelling: (am-ee'-an-tos) Definition: undefiled Usage: undefiled, untainted, free from contamination. WONT LET ME QUOTE SO COPY AND PASTE 20 hours ago, DeighAnn said: If you are NOT INTO learning GODS WORD as it proceeds out of His mouth or not reading it precept on precept.... then SURE you probably could get it to read like that, but the fact of the matter is, to which you replied Seems pretty judgmental and not based on the facts. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't listen to the Word and hear Him. SO MY REPLY TO THAT IS 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 1607. ekporeuomai ► Strong's Concordance ekporeuomai: to make to go forth, to go forth Original Word: ἐκπορεύομαι Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: ekporeuomai Phonetic Spelling: (ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee) Definition: to make to go forth, to go forth Usage: I depart from; I am voided, cast out; I proceed from, am spoken; I burst forth, flow out, am spread abroad. HELPS Word-studies 1607 ekporeúomai (from 1537 /ek, "out from," intensifying 4198 /poreúomai, "take a particular passageway") – properly, go out from, emphasizing the outcome (end-impact) of going through a particular process or passage – i.e. the influence on the person (or thing) which comes forth. Note the force of the prefix 1537 (ek). 1607 /ekporeúomai ("come out from") Links the source to the outcome (influence) on the object (as specified by the individual context). As you can see, NO JUDGEMENT on my part, just imparting information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 9 hours ago, Diaste said: This is a hermeneutic and interpretive error. There are no stronger verses, just facts contained in the verses. All the facts from all relevant verses or passages must be considered. It's cherry picking to use only a portion, a prevalent formal logical fallacy, especially in prophetic interpretation. Is that another way of saying you don't have a 2nd witness let alone a 3rd or 4th witness? If so, I think your premise for 'flesh and blood surviving the WRATH of the Lamb and the JUDGMENTS of God is extremely weak'. And I have no idea what hermeneutic and interpretive error is. You can say 'there are no stronger verses' to NOT ONLY show MY LACK OF knowledge but also my poor COMMUNICATION SKILLS when compared to that possessed by the 'learned' of the world if you FEEL YOU MUST, but that doesn't change the facts there are verses that show one meaning and one meaning only and others like 'survivors' that COULD GO EITHER WAY as to HOW THEY survived be that if they were 'somehow untouched' by the trib and also the CHANGE OF REALMS had no effect on them so they becomes souls NOW MAKING VOID 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom...' by remaining in flesh and blood or if in the resurrection of the dead both just and unjust and the separation of the nations sheep and goats they survived and are now in the Lords Day trying to get their names in the book of LIFE.... Hopefully that more clearly shows WHAT I MEAN by stronger verses vs weaker verses....even though I am not going to go and correct how i wrote it. 9 hours ago, Diaste said: So unless you can find a passage where it's prophesied God destroys every living, breathing, bag of bones called mankind, then it doesn't happen. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Man Posted September 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,116 Content Per Day: 1.42 Reputation: 563 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2023 11 hours ago, Diaste said: Nope. Trumps are not wrath, not called wrath either. Bowls are wrath, they are called wrath. See the difference? If course they are, in the 6th Seal we are SHOWN the COMING Trumpet Judgments because the Seals are Prophetic in nature. So as Jesus foretells the coming Trumpet Judgments the humans affected by these "coming Trumpet Judgments" say this. Rev. 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: So, what ACTIONS did this 6th Seal bring? Lets look. Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake(Asteroid Impact Trump #2); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood(Trump #4 and Joel 2:31 being fulfilled); 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth(An Asteroid hits earth, and/or Satan is cast down at the 1260 events), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. ---------------------- So, why does the Sun and Moon's light dim in the Fourth Trumpet Judgment? Because 1/3 of the trees on earth burn via Trump #1, (I personally see this as the New World burning in full) and this filters the Sun and Moons light by 1/3 (and the stars also I think). The Joel 2:31 prophecy about a blood moon comes because of the same fires, the moon gets a Red hue because of all the Trump #1 fires. The Trump #2 Impact of course if seen in a vision will shake the earth !! Thus this all fulfills the Trump #4 events which Seal #6 FORETELLS us about, as does Joel 2:31 the Vials FILL UP the Wrath of God which means it completes the Wrath, go study it as I have my friend. Lets take a look see: Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. Now with my 1611 KJV with Strong's Greek links Revulation 15:1 And 2532 I saw 1492 z5627 another 243 signe 4592 in 1722 heauen 3772 great 3173 and 2532 marueilous, 2298 seuen 2033 Angels 32 hauing 2192 z5723 the x3588 seuen 2033 last 2078 plagues, 4127 for 3754 in 1722 them 846 is filled vp 5055 z5681 the x3588 wrath 2372 of God. 2316 5055 = TELEO #5055 τελέω teleo {tel-eh'-o} from G5056; TDNT - 8:57,1161; v —Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) to bring to a close, to finish, to end 1a) passed, finished 2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.) Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):—accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over. —Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament) So, the Vials COMPLETES the Wrath of God brother, the Trumps are the Wrath of God in full, because the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump, and the 3rd Woe is ALL SEVEN Vials in full. Read Rev. 8:13, the Three Woes are the Three Trumps yet to sound. Thus in Rev. 11 when it says the 2nd Woe is past and the 3rd Woe comes quickly, then it shows the 7th Trump sounding and Jesus getting the victory, that only leaves out the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, just like the mention of the 2nd Woe leaves out the DETAILS also, as seen in Rev. 9, so the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe are seen in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe and they emit or COME FORTH from the 7th Trump, so from the 7 Trumps falls all of the Wrath of God. 11 hours ago, Diaste said: Jesus said it was 'unmatched from the beginning of the world till now, never to be seen again". So yes, greatest ever by the words of Jesus Christ, King of kings, Savior of the whole world. Rev. 7:9-16 never calls the it the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, why do you insist on putting forth something you know is not factual brother? Yes, Jesus uses "THE WORD GREAT" in Matt. 24"17-21 but he also DESCRIBES IT as the Greatest Ever Troubles, lets suffice it to say I shant debate t with you further, but NOWHERE is the Great in Rev. 7:9-16 described as the GREATEST EVER TROUBES and you know this. You will not win this debate because you are in error, you will find out very soon you wee wrong on the Raptures timing. But the sad thing is you will not admit what can clearly be seen, NOWHERE is Rev. 7 is that period described as the Greatest Ever Troubles. If you want to pretend it is be my guest, live in that fantasy world brother. We as Christians should always be INTELLECTUALLY HONEST. I am going to post both passages to show they do not say the same thing, maybe you will the admit they are not the same. Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. So, we can have GREAT TRIBULATION, in WW2, in WW1, via the Black Plague but only when the above is ADDED can it be called the Greatest Ever Troubles. Likewise, this is not added to Rev. 7:9-16. Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Nowhere is the added emphasis on GREATEST EVER like Jesus added in Matt. 24. You know this. When you get to heaven and find out the truth it will not shock you because I have told you this many times. The 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 completely knee cap your thesis brother. As bad as you hate it one day flying through he air, pre trib, you are going t find out you were in error. ------------------------------------------------ 12 hours ago, Diaste said: That is whole lot of nothing I said about anything. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: I did not reread it but it must have defeated one of your points brother. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: It's a pretty simple calculus. They came out great tribulation, great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the week, great tribulation only lasts till the Lord returns, so a very short time, relatively. Doesn't require any big brain or deep thought to just listen and trust. NO.........The Greatest Ever Troubles begin at the midpoint, not all Great Tribulation. And the Greatest Ever begins at the 1260 not the 1290. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: Jesus said it was 'unmatched from the beginning of the world till now, never to be seen again". So yes, greatest ever by the words of Jesus Christ, King of kings, Savior of the whole world. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: Yes, the Greatest Ever, not all Great Tribulation. Fir you to deny that Great Tribulation and the Greatest Ever Tribulation is not different is amusing, what can I say brother, I think you are straining at a gnat here to try and prove a point. You know Great and Greatest are not the same words, YES...........Great can become the GREATEST EVER with an added descriptor like Jesus added with it, but that added descriptor is not seen in Rev. 7:9-16. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: It's not duration, it's the pressure. You should look up the defining characteristics of megas thlipsis. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: Now you look at Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4, no one gets Raptured during the 70th week. Thereby your whole thesis is defeated brother. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: Nah. That's not megas thlipsis. If it was meant to be megas thlipsis Jesus would have said so since He it's His words in John and in Matthew. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: Jesus can not lie. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: So megas carries a few meanings but the base meaning is, 'in the widest sense'. I don't see that as 'the widest sense' even as it was locally terrible. That and the fact that Jesus is slated to arrive to put and end to megas thlipsis, and He did not arrive, then Rome and 70 AD were NOT megas thlipsis. Remember, it's supposed to be "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." Roman persecution[which is not entirely accurate] was surpassed by WWII and the Jews, ergo, Roman persecution was not "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." And Jesus didn't arrive which He said he will do, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" The IMMEDIATLEY AFTER is referring unto the Sun and Moon going dark in Matt. 24:29, NOT Jesus returning Immediately Afterwards. At least you provided a little push back here whereas in all the other points you are just unwilling to even admit that GREAT and GREATEST have two different meanings. Which gets on my nerves a wee bit, you are a whole lot more intelligent than that, you just hope (I guess) to win a point by ignoring the thrust of my facts. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: Sure, sure. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: Well, seems I am getting to you.....SMILE...just being Facetious 12 hours ago, Diaste said: I guess when I copy and paste the words from the Berean Study Bible, or any of the hundred versions at my fingertips, I feel pretty safe knowing I have done Him no disservice, but rather glorified Him. On 9/9/2023 at 11:17 AM, Revelation Man said: Doesn't matter who says it, Jesus has never stated there will be no Pre Trib Rapture. I can make an argument (a good one) that Jesus points to a Pre Trib Rapture but I will not say Jesus never said there is not Pre Wrath or Post Trib tribulation because, as you know, Jesus was mostly silent on all of this. We have to pull it out of Parables, Jewish Traditions, what Jesus told Paul etc. I am just saying we need to birth be carful of saying Jesus said this when he was silent. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: Yes, immediately after Jesus return, which is after the A of D and after GT, a GT which only endures for less that 3.5 years; and His return and the gathering occur immediately before wrath, which wrath begins only after the gathering at His coming, sometime in the last half of the week. Again. Matt. 24:29 is referring to Trump #4 not the 2nd Coming, verse 30 adds a THEN which is 1260 some odd days later, maybe 1258 or 1259 or 1255, so just like Zech. 14:2 is Jerusalem getting conquered and vs. 3 says AND THEN....and that is 1260 days after vs. 2. Prophecy has broad leaps forward brother. 12 hours ago, Diaste said: We'll know way before that. Well, we do not have that long, the Pre Trib Rapture has to be by the fall of 2025. So, its upon us brother. I do (admittedly) get a little off-put about the words Great and Greatest not being the same, so I apologize if I think everyone should see that. We can't always see everything, we see darkly now I understand. You know I say things as I see it, and I never am offended by rough wording, its OK, it just us sharpening our swords to make us tougher. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 12, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 On 9/10/2023 at 2:21 PM, DeighAnn said: Is that another way of saying you don't have a 2nd witness let alone a 3rd or 4th witness? If so, I think your premise for 'flesh and blood surviving the WRATH of the Lamb and the JUDGMENTS of God is extremely weak'. And I have no idea what hermeneutic and interpretive error is. You can say 'there are no stronger verses' to NOT ONLY show MY LACK OF knowledge but also my poor COMMUNICATION SKILLS when compared to that possessed by the 'learned' of the world if you FEEL YOU MUST, I am not doing that. It's cautionary advice, and only because I did the same thing back in the day, and sometimes still jump the gun before I have all the information there is to know. I don't think Zech 14 is weak evidence nor strong evidence. It's a set of facts that must be incorporated into the knowledge of the end of the age and the millennium kingdom for a more complete understanding. On 9/10/2023 at 2:21 PM, DeighAnn said: but that doesn't change the facts there are verses that show one meaning and one meaning only and others like 'survivors' that COULD GO EITHER WAY as to HOW THEY survived be that if they were 'somehow untouched' by the trib and also the CHANGE OF REALMS had no effect on them so they becomes souls NOW MAKING VOID 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom...' by remaining in flesh and blood It makes nothing void. Just because they are living within the administration of the Kingdom of God under the rule of the Lamb does not equate to inheriting the Kingdom of God. On 9/10/2023 at 2:21 PM, DeighAnn said: or if in the resurrection of the dead both just and unjust and the separation of the nations sheep and goats they survived and are now in the Lords Day trying to get their names in the book of LIFE.... Hopefully that more clearly shows WHAT I MEAN by stronger verses vs weaker verses....even though I am not going to go and correct how i wrote it. I understand what you mean. I'm pointing out it's clear Zech 14 says there will be survivors of the nations that came against Israel that survive the Lord's day at the end; and this when the Lord is ruling on earth. They are in the Kingdom of God, they are not of the Kingdom of God at that point. On 9/10/2023 at 2:21 PM, DeighAnn said: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 12, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 On 9/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, DeighAnn said: Abraham, rich man and Lazarus. Either sowing seeds of confusion or speaking to a truth. The focus was on the souls under the altar. There is some dispute about the rich man story and I don't want to get into it here. In fact this is way off topic. On 9/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, DeighAnn said: Mark 14:58 - We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands. It isn't a matter of like or not like, it is a matter you don't sow the body that will be, there are two bodies. One quickens the other, God gives a body made without hand. Not related. On 9/10/2023 at 2:03 PM, DeighAnn said: 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 283. amiantos ► Strong's Concordance amiantos: undefiled Original Word: ἀμίαντος, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: amiantos Phonetic Spelling: (am-ee'-an-tos) Definition: undefiled Usage: undefiled, untainted, free from contamination. WONT LET ME QUOTE SO COPY AND PASTE 20 hours ago, DeighAnn said: If you are NOT INTO learning GODS WORD as it proceeds out of His mouth or not reading it precept on precept.... then SURE you probably could get it to read like that, but the fact of the matter is, to which you replied Seems pretty judgmental and not based on the facts. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't listen to the Word and hear Him. SO MY REPLY TO THAT IS 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 1607. ekporeuomai ► Strong's Concordance ekporeuomai: to make to go forth, to go forth Original Word: ἐκπορεύομαι Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: ekporeuomai Phonetic Spelling: (ek-por-yoo'-om-ahee) Definition: to make to go forth, to go forth Usage: I depart from; I am voided, cast out; I proceed from, am spoken; I burst forth, flow out, am spread abroad. HELPS Word-studies 1607 ekporeúomai (from 1537 /ek, "out from," intensifying 4198 /poreúomai, "take a particular passageway") – properly, go out from, emphasizing the outcome (end-impact) of going through a particular process or passage – i.e. the influence on the person (or thing) which comes forth. Note the force of the prefix 1537 (ek). 1607 /ekporeúomai ("come out from") Links the source to the outcome (influence) on the object (as specified by the individual context). As you can see, NO JUDGEMENT on my part, just imparting information I'm thinking this has just about run it's course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 12, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 On 9/10/2023 at 1:42 PM, DeighAnn said: Maybe I am missing what you are trying to convey...IDK I agree. I think it doesn't matter. We'll know soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 12, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 On 9/10/2023 at 12:28 PM, DeighAnn said: THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED WHEN CHRIST RETURNS ARE 'MORTAL, LIABLE TO DEAD, NO OPERATIONAL IN THE WAYS OF GOD'. and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. The dead in Christ risen to be with the Lord forever. From the grave. To be with the Lord forever, immortal. This says nothing about what you propose. In fact it's the opposite. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man. Clearly the same body will simply bear a spiritual likeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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