Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its says GREAT TRIBULATION, not The Great Tribulation. So newfound modern interpretation has added that in. 

 

Inaccurate.

Strong's 3588. ho, hé, to

ho, hé, to: the

Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article."

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Diaste

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the Lord God Almighty, and to celebrate to Feast of Tabernacles.  Not all died at Armageddon.  All those remaining who had the MOTB and worshiped him die at Armageddon.  There are boat load of people who come out of the 70th Week alive.

No wonder we are to read the words of God as they proceed out of His mouth, precept on precept.....so we RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH of them and we don't go around trying to find ONE VERSE that from 'the words' appears to back our point of view so we daub it with untempered morter, but the rain from God is going to show how it is just a whitewash.  

THERE IS A WALL of information showing what that truth REALLY IS.  But hey, the doctrine doesn't care, why should it, because when KEPT FROM is taught to mean removed from the earth even if it means GOD doesn't listen to the prayers of Jesus and Christ doesn't obey God to sit at His right hand until....what's a few more verses made void.


I wonder how that verse stands up as being about flesh and blood beings...rather than about THE DEAD who rise when Christ returns...as making it through the sheep and goat separation...now working to get their names in the book of life




2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

 

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



First death come TO ALL MEN except those who HAVE ENDURED to the end...WHO will be changed.


There is the army of horse men  -  that kill a third  
There is the harvest- the tares gathered and burned
there is the supper of God - BIRDS feeding on all flesh from kings on down
there is the remnant killed by the sword
there is the vine of the earth cast into the winepress of GODS WRATH

it is the DAY OF VENGEANCE

I used to wonder why GOD said the same thing over and over again in so many different ways from so many different points of view....now I get it.  


31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.



7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When He shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

[DeighAnn]

I'll just keep throwing this out there everywhere I go UNTIL ONE DAY....it will be too late


Those who never die are raised up in glory power incorruption in their spiritual body to receive in body of deeds ending up with a body as is pleasing to GOD made in the heavens when THEY FOLLOW HIM... 

Don't need to be RAISED UP TWICE.  Just the once.  Either the souls under the altar HAVE HEAVENLY BODIES or they don't

BUT pretty sure all the RATIONAL SOULS will agree, you don't PUT ROBES ON AIR. 


So, those who NEVER DIE and FOLLOW HIM

 DON'T NEED ANOTHER 'BODY' TO COME UP FROM THE GRAVE FOR THEM



And since THE DEAD who rise when Christ returns ARE THOSE

WHO ARE LIABLE TO DIE

ARE MORTAL

AND neither of those things apply TO A SAVED SOUL


and it ISN'T DEAD BODIES, CORPSES that rise,

that only leaves SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS both just and unjust...sheep and goats...book of life and 2nd death...



THOSE who CAME TO FAITH are of the 1st resurrection, already received immortality, don't stand at the GWTJ...that is for the DEAD who rise when He returns.  

  





3754 [e]    ὅτι
hoti    because    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτὸς
autos    Himself    PPro-NM3S
3588 [e]    ὁ
ho    the    Art-NMS
2962 [e]    Κύριος
Kyrios    Lord    N-NMS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
2752 [e]    κελεύσματι,
keleusmati    a loud command,    N-DNS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
5456 [e]    φωνῇ
phōnē    the voice    N-DFS
743 [e]    ἀρχαγγέλου
archangelou    of an archangel,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
4536 [e]    σάλπιγγι
salpingi    [the] trumpet    N-DFS
2316 [e]    Θεοῦ,
Theou    of God,    N-GMS
2597 [e]    καταβήσεται
katabēsetai    will descend    V-FIM-3S
575 [e]    ἀπ’
ap’    from    Prep
3772 [e]    οὐρανοῦ,
ouranou    heaven,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
3588 [e]    οἱ
hoi    the    Art-NMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὶ
nekroi    dead    Adj-NMP  
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    in    Prep
5547 [e]    Χριστῷ
Christō    Christ    N-DMS
450 [e]    ἀναστήσονται
anastēsontai    will rise    V-FIM-3P
4412 [e]    πρῶτον,
prōton    first.    Adv-S


3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.


proving to anyone with eyes and ears....   

WHAT ISN'T BEING RAISED UP IS ANY KIND OF A BODY FOR the returning 'NEVER DIE' s

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" 1 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
 

[Revelation Man]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Inaccurate.

Strong's 3588. ho, hé, to

ho, hé, to: the

Original Word: ὁ, ἡ, τό
Part of Speech: Definite Article
Transliteration: ho, hé, to
Phonetic Spelling: (ho)
Definition: the
Usage: the, the definite article."

 

It says Great Tribulation, and even the great tribulation is not the GREATEST EVER tribulation. In biblical studies, and especially in prophecy we have to do what Isaiah stated, Here a little, there a little, just like I solved the seeming contradiction to Rev. 19:20 and Dan. 7:11,I did the exact same thing here by digging in deep.

The 5th Seal specifically states that those Martyrs MUST WAIT until the little season of the Anti-Christ (42 months) was over, how do we now that was the reference? Because Jesus states that they must wait until all the brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, that that clinches it, no one is allowed to get vengeance and judgment until AFTER the Beasts 42 month reign of terror. Likewise Rev. 20:4 states that the Martyrs who died f0r Christ whilst refusing to take the Mark of the Beast all get judged AFTER Jesus' return, not before, so add it all up brother, those seen in the Rev. 7:9-16 flash up to heaven can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Church, no one is going to heaven  after the 70th week tribulation period starts, Jesus says so at the 5th Seal (which points to the Trumpet Judgments and the Anti-Christs 42 month rule) and we see the evidence of this in Rev. 20:4, we can SEE THEM RAISED & JUDGED in real time, after the 2nd Coming. 

So, all around, it is obvious this can only be the Church Age Saints, as shown in Rev. 4:4 as the OVERCOMERS whom sit at God's Throne(Rev. 3:21), wearing White Robes(Rev. 3:5), with Gold Crowns (Rev. 2:10). Jesus calls us home at Revelation 4:1 via the Last Trump, Jesus fulfills all 7 Feasts, not just the Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits. He is fulfilling the Feast of weeks or Harvest as we speak, the Feast of Trumps is next, then the Feast of Atonement (Rev. 7 sees Israel repent, Zech. 13:8-9 sees this also) and finally the Feast of Tabernacles (Jesus dwell with mankind from Jerusalem).

So, Great Tribulation, or THE GREAT TRIBULATION us still pointing to the Church Age Saints who went through Great Tribulation. Nowhere is it stated as the Greatest Ever Troubles because it can not be via all of the Markers. 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:01 AM, Diaste said:

Many won't get through the GT, because they die a physical death before it's over. Some will make it to the end as there must be those who are alive and remain. 

There is zero evidence of a gathering pre 70th week, or even pre GT.

Likely not. The timing for such ideas is missing and there is also misinterpretation.

Yeah. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? I'm in my 60s. That means if I die before the arrival of the beast, the GT and the return of the King, I won't be resurrected until the 1000 year reign is over, to stand before judgement with the 2nd death hanging over my head. 

It's a sobering thought.

I have inquired about this. Is this one group with several attributes, or anyone as long as they have at least one of the attributes?

It's the latter for me.

As long as one doesn't take the mark, worship the beast or it's image, and hold to the testimony of Christ, they are in the group seen in Rev 20.

 

The first beast in revelation 13 is already come.It has already been healed of it's deadly wound and many people throughout the world have followed after it.

It's the second beast that has not arrived in Israel yet.That is the beast that will practice the authority of the first beast on its behalf and will cause those who followed to receive the mark of the beast.

The first beast has already been talking about giving everyone who has followed after it a microchip which I predicted he would about 20 years ago.As of now he has serious problems and needs help.I feel he will soon ask the king of the north for help and he will send him the second beast.

 

This has nothing to do with the entire world.It has to do with them who have followed after the beast from the world.

Revelation 13

One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It says Great Tribulation, and even the great tribulation is not the GREATEST EVER tribulation. In biblical studies, and especially in prophecy we have to do what Isaiah stated, Here a little, there a little, just like I solved the seeming contradiction to Rev. 19:20 and Dan. 7:11,I did the exact same thing here by digging in deep.

I just showed you the definite article is in the Greek text. 

Jesus said the GT will be like nothing before and nothing after.

Why deny it?

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 5th Seal specifically states that those Martyrs MUST WAIT until the little season of the Anti-Christ (42 months) was over, how do we now that was the reference? Because Jesus states that they must wait until all the brothers have been killed in like manner as they have, that that clinches it, no one is allowed to get vengeance and judgment until AFTER the Beasts 42 month reign of terror. Likewise Rev. 20:4 states that the Martyrs who died f0r Christ whilst refusing to take the Mark of the Beast all get judged AFTER Jesus' return, not before, so add it all up brother, those seen in the Rev. 7:9-16 flash up to heaven can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Church, no one is going to heaven  after the 70th week tribulation period starts, Jesus says so at the 5th Seal (which points to the Trumpet Judgments and the Anti-Christs 42 month rule) and we see the evidence of this in Rev. 20:4, we can SEE THEM RAISED & JUDGED in real time, after the 2nd Coming. 

Incorrect. The 2nd resurrection isn't only a resurrection of judgement and death.

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, all around, it is obvious this can only be the Church Age Saints, as shown in Rev. 4:4 as the OVERCOMERS whom sit at God's Throne(Rev. 3:21), wearing White Robes(Rev. 3:5), with Gold Crowns (Rev. 2:10). Jesus calls us home at Revelation 4:1 via the Last Trump, Jesus fulfills all 7 Feasts, not just the Passover, Unleavened Bread and First-fruits. He is fulfilling the Feast of weeks or Harvest as we speak, the Feast of Trumps is next, then the Feast of Atonement (Rev. 7 sees Israel repent, Zech. 13:8-9 sees this also) and finally the Feast of Tabernacles (Jesus dwell with mankind from Jerusalem).

The is no church age. It's all the church age. There is no dispensation of Grace. It's always been, and will only ever be, grace.

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, Great Tribulation, or THE GREAT TRIBULATION us still pointing to the Church Age Saints who went through Great Tribulation. Nowhere is it stated as the Greatest Ever Troubles because it can not be via all of the Markers. 

Jesus said it was in the Gospels. 

Why deny it?

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I'll just keep throwing this out there everywhere I go UNTIL ONE DAY....it will be too late


Those who never die are raised up in glory power incorruption in their spiritual body to receive in body of deeds ending up with a body as is pleasing to GOD made in the heavens when THEY FOLLOW HIM... 

Don't need to be RAISED UP TWICE.  Just the once.  Either the souls under the altar HAVE HEAVENLY BODIES or they don't

BUT pretty sure all the RATIONAL SOULS will agree, you don't PUT ROBES ON AIR. 


So, those who NEVER DIE and FOLLOW HIM

 DON'T NEED ANOTHER 'BODY' TO COME UP FROM THE GRAVE FOR THEM



And since THE DEAD who rise when Christ returns ARE THOSE

WHO ARE LIABLE TO DIE

ARE MORTAL

AND neither of those things apply TO A SAVED SOUL


and it ISN'T DEAD BODIES, CORPSES that rise,

that only leaves SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS both just and unjust...sheep and goats...book of life and 2nd death...



THOSE who CAME TO FAITH are of the 1st resurrection, already received immortality, don't stand at the GWTJ...that is for the DEAD who rise when He returns.  

  





3754 [e]    ὅτι
hoti    because    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτὸς
autos    Himself    PPro-NM3S
3588 [e]    ὁ
ho    the    Art-NMS
2962 [e]    Κύριος
Kyrios    Lord    N-NMS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
2752 [e]    κελεύσματι,
keleusmati    a loud command,    N-DNS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
5456 [e]    φωνῇ
phōnē    the voice    N-DFS
743 [e]    ἀρχαγγέλου
archangelou    of an archangel,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
4536 [e]    σάλπιγγι
salpingi    [the] trumpet    N-DFS
2316 [e]    Θεοῦ,
Theou    of God,    N-GMS
2597 [e]    καταβήσεται
katabēsetai    will descend    V-FIM-3S
575 [e]    ἀπ’
ap’    from    Prep
3772 [e]    οὐρανοῦ,
ouranou    heaven,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
3588 [e]    οἱ
hoi    the    Art-NMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὶ
nekroi    dead    Adj-NMP  
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    in    Prep
5547 [e]    Χριστῷ
Christō    Christ    N-DMS
450 [e]    ἀναστήσονται
anastēsontai    will rise    V-FIM-3P
4412 [e]    πρῶτον,
prōton    first.    Adv-S


3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.


proving to anyone with eyes and ears....   

WHAT ISN'T BEING RAISED UP IS ANY KIND OF A BODY FOR the returning 'NEVER DIE' s

"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" 1 Corinthians 1:20 KJV
 

1 Cor 15

the dead will be raised imperishable,

Literally saying the the DEAD will be raised.

and we will be changed. 

Saying the 'we' are changed, not put into a new vehicle but becoming into a new state from an old state. Like some one with a substance abuse problem, they stop abusing substances and leave that altered state becoming an unaltered state, not a new and different body and mind, just a better version of the same mind and body.

53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Literally saying the DEAD will be made imperishable, the mortal made immortal.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,

enduo: I put on, clothe

Original Word: ἐνδύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: enduo
Phonetic Spelling: (en-doo'-o)
Definition: to clothe or be clothed with (in the sense of sinking into a garment)
Usage: I put on, clothe (another).

This shows the putting on of the garment of immortality and imperishability on the existing person not so clothed. It's not a body, it's a new wardrobe for the person, perfect and forever.

 

[Diaste]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:57 AM, DeighAnn said:

EVEN if it is off

Either the WHOLE WORLD is deceived and worship the beast

OR an innumerable number don't worship the beast.

Which is it?

Just as Revelation tells us.

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count"

No crowds are counted literally. They are estimated based on the area the crowd covers, unless there is an admission fee like movies, concerts, fairs and the like.

In this case there is no such admission and so 'no man' can literally count them. 

Ever seen a crowd of 100,000 people? It looks stunningly enormous. I have seen crowds of up to an estimated 400,000. No one can literally count that crowd.

That's all John is saying. There is no gauge in scripture for the size of the crowd, some think billions when a million would be a vast throng. 

So what John says about that crowd is just as likely to be a statement of hype based on awe of the size and not some number from the imagination of the mind of mankind. We just don't know and basing dogma on an abstract is not good form.

 

[Diaste]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:46 AM, DeighAnn said:

So IF IT WERE the END TIME GREAT TRIB

then THE PEOPLE ON THE EARTH RIGHT NOW would have to be WITHOUT NUMBER

NOT ONLY as those HAVING SURVIVED THE GREAT TRIB but


YOU WOULD ALSO NEED TO ADD TO THAT NUM 

 THE WHOLE WORLD THAT WORSHIPED THE BEAST.  


How do you get to THOSE KINDS OF NUMBERS???  We know how many people are on the earth. 

ARE YOU SAYING  The whole world IS NOT DECEIVED AT ALL?  

 

Absolutely not. You're thinking innumerable as in grains of sand or stars in the visible sky and relating that to the gathering. "No one" is not the same as "cannot be". Mankind cannot, God can and does. 

Google up some images of big crowds. The Lebanese people surrounded their capitol with about a million estimated people. Look up those images. Could any one count them? 

I think you're mistaking hyperbole and poetic imagery with the literal and making it a factual premise. 

[Diaste]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:42 AM, DeighAnn said:

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I mean, whom does he see sitting on the thrones? Certainly you don't think the armies were the ones sitting on the thrones. I see no info on the identity of those

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge.