Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Oh ,it's not irrelevant.

Mathew 12:8

For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The discussion is about the resurrection.  Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and that is not relevant to resurrection.

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Those who are being resurected in the first resurrection keep the Sabbath for the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Do you have any verses that support your claim here?

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Luke 13:32

He said to them, “Go tell that fox, Look! I’m driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete My work.’

I thought not.

10 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Perhaps I should have asked  ,are you holy?

I think that may have been an easier question to answer.

Jesus called ALL men evil.  Think about that.  The Bible commands believers to be holy.  Do you know what holy means?

I would guess you think it means being very moral, strict, etc.  Well, the Pharisees of Jesus' day were all that and He repeatedly called them vipers, hypocrites, etc.

So, what do you think "holy" means?

[Shilohsfoal]

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

The discussion is about the resurrection.  Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and that is not relevant to resurrection.

Do you have any verses that support your claim here?

I thought not.

Jesus called ALL men evil.  Think about that.  The Bible commands believers to be holy.  Do you know what holy means?

I would guess you think it means being very moral, strict, etc.  Well, the Pharisees of Jesus' day were all that and He repeatedly called them vipers, hypocrites, etc.

So, what do you think "holy" means?

It appears by your answers that you will be waiting for the second resurrection.

That being after the Sabbath day.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Didn't say every person 'will not' be resurrected. The point is who is resurrected and when.

I answered that.  ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.  1 Cor 15:23

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I wasn't addressing the time span between the primary resurrection and the 2nd death.

I did to show WHEN all unbelievers will be resurrected, which is 1,000 years AFTER all believers will be resurrected.  Rev 20:4-6

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm narrowing the focus on the resurrection when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming.

1 Cor 15:23 answers that clearly.  All believers.  Unless "those who belong to Him" does NOT include all believers.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The quoted verse is quite clear and was posted by design to keep the focus on what is being said in the prophecy. It is clear the prophecy says what it says, "They came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years." Who 'they' are is quite specific in verse 4 and it's not 'all the saved in the history of the world'.

Doesn't have to be "specific" to include every believer.  1 Cor 15:23 did that quite nicely.  When considering any particular verse, we MUST include every relevant verse in order to get the whole picture.  The fact that martyrs are mentioned in Rev 20 proves that it is only saved people that are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, and I proved with 3 verses that there will be only 2 resurrections for humans; one for the saved and 1 for the unsaved.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not sure how one can go from a specific description to a sweeping generality with no justification.

Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is the proof.  Believe it or not.  But, if you do not believe it, please explain why you don't agree that 1 Cor 15:23 refers to all believers.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Doesn't mean that at all. It's assumed the 2nd death is a resurrection and judgement that casts all souls who appear before the GWT into outer darkness of the lake of fire. That is not what the text says.

Put all the relevant verses together and you get the whole picture.  I've given the 3 that show that there will be a resurrection of all the saved and a resurrection of all the unsaved.  That adds up to 2 total.  Rev 20 shows the FIRST resurrection occurs at the Second Advent, which is supported by 1 Cor 15:23 and plainly says that is the FIRST resurrection, followed by the NEXT ONE 1,000 years later, which will be at the END of the MK, just before the GWT.  Dots are very easy to connect.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

 This is littered with assumptions that do not hold up in the face of textual evidence.

Read my previous paragraph.  That IS textual evidence.  You are focusing only on 1 passage/verse, it appears.  I'm looking at the WHOLE council of God for the WHOLE PICTURE.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

For one, the illogic that because a person is not resurrected at a certain time means their salvation is lost, is incorrect.

No one's salvation can be lost.  That is illogical given what Jesus Himself said.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

  It's manifest in Matt 25 where both the saved and the unsaved are before the throne on the left and the right. This judgment is just and righteous and the saved enter in and the unsaved do not.

This is a summary verse, because we KNOW the FIRST resurrection is 1,000 years before the NEXT ONE.  

We must begin with very clear and straightforward verses/passages and then move to the less clear ones in order to understand them.

Matt 25 has to be a summary, and not that they occur together, or let's just cut Rev 20 out of our Bibles then.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So to say that because some are not resurrected at the 2nd coming, and must wait for 1000 years, their salvation is lost, is again, incorrect.

I never said that.  Those who are not in the FIRST resurrection WILL be in the next one.  And only believers will be in the FIRST one.  So unbelievers, in the NEXT one, never had salvation in the first place.  So again, no one loses salvation.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. The OP is an exploration of the text. An uncomfortable one to be sure.

What's uncomfortable about the subject of resurrection?  I guess I'm missing that.

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

It appears by your answers that you will be waiting for the second resurrection.

That being after the Sabbath day.

lol.  You couldn't be any more wrong.  Jesus gave me the free gift of eternal life WHEN I believed in Him for salvation, per John 5:24 and on the basis of being given that gift, I SHALL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28.  

You apparently aren't that familiar with Scripture.

And you dodged my question about what you think "holy" means.  Do you know or not?  It's ok to admit what you don't know.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

Didn't say every person 'will not' be resurrected. The point is who is resurrected and when.

I answered that.  ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.  1 Cor 15:23

23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1 Cor 15

I'm fine with, 'those who belong to Him' here. What I'm saying is, this 'those who belong to Him' is undefined, and here's why;

4Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. Eze 18

So if all souls belong to Him, is it possible every soul, saved and unsaved, are resurrected at His 2nd coming?

I would say, No. Then if every soul belongs to Him, but only believers are resurrected at the 2nd advent, then the prophecy is wrong or everyone claiming it's all believers from Adam to the 2nd coming are wrong. 

Interestingly, when "then at His coming, those who belong to Him" in the Greek, "ἔπειτα τῷ οἱ Χριστοῦ παρουσίᾳ", is entered in to DeepL Translator, it returns    'after the presence of Christ'. As if to say, 'Christ the firstfruits, then the presence of Christ'. 

 

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

I wasn't addressing the time span between the primary resurrection and the 2nd death.

I did to show WHEN all unbelievers will be resurrected, which is 1,000 years AFTER all believers will be resurrected.  Rev 20:4-6

Yes. But that's not correct. The 2nd death is not a judgement of the unsaved only.

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20

This is only an IF, THEN operator. IF a name is NOT FOUND....THEN.... means names will be found written in the Book of Life at the GWTJ. It is not, and never has been, a summary judgement and execution.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

The quoted verse is quite clear and was posted by design to keep the focus on what is being said in the prophecy. It is clear the prophecy says what it says, "They came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years." Who 'they' are is quite specific in verse 4 and it's not 'all the saved in the history of the world'.

Doesn't have to be "specific" to include every believer.  1 Cor 15:23 did that quite nicely.  When considering any particular verse, we MUST include every relevant verse in order to get the whole picture.  The fact that martyrs are mentioned in Rev 20 proves that it is only saved people that are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, and I proved with 3 verses that there will be only 2 resurrections for humans; one for the saved and 1 for the unsaved.

There are many resurrections that have happened across time. The two witnesses will be resurrected apart from the primary resurrection and the 2nd death. 

The so called 1st resurrection is not 1st in order, but 1st in import. It is not the first, and the 2nd is not the 2nd in order, it's the 2nd death. These are not minor distinctions. 

If what the text says in Rev 20:4 Rev 15:2 and Rev 7:11-14 can't be held to the specifics of the text, but 1 Cor 15:23 is assessed as specific to 'all believers' then we enter into confusion. 

The relevant text in Rev cannot be added to, including that which is not said, if so it's just dogmatic and not reasonable understanding coupled with awe of God's word. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

 This is littered with assumptions that do not hold up in the face of textual evidence.

Read my previous paragraph.  That IS textual evidence.  You are focusing only on 1 passage/verse, it appears.  I'm looking at the WHOLE council of God for the WHOLE PICTURE.

You aren't if you are adding to the relevant verses in Rev to include 'all believers from all time' when Rev 7, 15, and 20 all identify beyond doubt the ones pictured in heaven come out from within from GT and have faced the beast and overcame.

It is textual evidence, but it's ambiguous and other facts must be merged with the whole. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

For one, the illogic that because a person is not resurrected at a certain time means their salvation is lost, is incorrect.

No one's salvation can be lost.  That is illogical given what Jesus Himself said

If this is the direction you are going to go here, I think I'll just be done. 

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

  It's manifest in Matt 25 where both the saved and the unsaved are before the throne on the left and the right. This judgment is just and righteous and the saved enter in and the unsaved do not.

This is a summary verse, because we KNOW the FIRST resurrection is 1,000 years before the NEXT ONE.  

We must begin with very clear and straightforward verses/passages and then move to the less clear ones in order to understand them.

Matt 25 has to be a summary, and not that they occur together, or let's just cut Rev 20 out of our Bibles then.

This isn't a form of sarcasm conducive to furthering discussion. 

Matt 25 is showing that the saved and unsaved appear together at the judgement.

This idea is in keeping with what the rest of the text says.

The scenario from a great deal of evidence is;

The ones who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years are those resurrected and taken up alive from out of GT, and the rest of the dead only live again after the 1000 years, where just and righteous judgment is passed down. 

The GWT is a judgement of both saved and unsaved. 

So yes, the resurrection primary is 1000 years before the GWTJ, and the GWTJ is not only for the unsaved and both the righteous and unrighteous appear before the throne to receive just reward.

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

So to say that because some are not resurrected at the 2nd coming, and must wait for 1000 years, their salvation is lost, is again, incorrect.

I never said that.  Those who are not in the FIRST resurrection WILL be in the next one.  And only believers will be in the FIRST one.  So unbelievers, in the NEXT one, never had salvation in the first place.  So again, no one loses salvation.

On 10/20/2023 at 3:06 AM, Diaste said:

No. The OP is an exploration of the text. An uncomfortable one to be sure.

What's uncomfortable about the subject of resurrection?  I guess I'm missing that.

Oy!

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1 Cor 15

I'm fine with, 'those who belong to Him' here. What I'm saying is, this 'those who belong to Him' is undefined, and here's why;

4Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. Eze 18

So if all souls belong to Him, is it possible every soul, saved and unsaved, are resurrected at His 2nd coming?

No, it is not possible.  And here's why.  Rev 20:4-6 shows saved people (martyrs) resurrected at the Second Advent, and the plain and clear statement that this is the FIRST resurrection, and we know all unbelievers will be resurrected, which will be 1,000 years later, as the text says.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I would say, No. Then if every soul belongs to Him, but only believers are resurrected at the 2nd advent, then the prophecy is wrong or everyone claiming it's all believers from Adam to the 2nd coming are wrong.

One only has to realize that the verse about "every soul belongs to Me" is a reference to the FACT that God creates ALL souls.  So, in that sense, all souls do belong to Him.

But 1 Cor 15:23 isn't about the saved and lost.  It's only about the saved, those who receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, like Jesus' body.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Interestingly, when "then at His coming, those who belong to Him" in the Greek, "ἔπειτα τῷ οἱ Χριστοῦ παρουσίᾳ", is entered in to DeepL Translator, it returns    'after the presence of Christ'. As if to say, 'Christ the firstfruits, then the presence of Christ'.

Sure, "as IF to say".  But it's not saying that.  Just look at how all the translations on biblehub.com render the verse.  It is clear that the verse is only about saved people.

There is no context for the unsaved in that chapter.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes. But that's not correct. The 2nd death is not a judgement of the unsaved only.

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20

This is only an IF, THEN operator. IF a name is NOT FOUND....THEN.... means names will be found written in the Book of Life at the GWTJ. It is not, and never has been, a summary judgement and execution.

It doesn't mean that.  From Rev 20:4-6 we KNOW there will be 1,000 years between the FIRST and next (or final) resurrection.  There will be no saved people at the resurrection 1,000 years after the FIRST one.  Can't be.  Or the Bible is really messed up.  Which I strongly don't believe.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There are many resurrections that have happened across time. The two witnesses will be resurrected apart from the primary resurrection and the 2nd death.

Yes, that's true.  But there is zero evidence that any of those examples received a glorified immortal body.  iow, they all died physically again.

Here's the proof.  Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Jesus certainly wasn't the first to "rise from the dead".  There are several accounts from the OT and a number in the NT, during Jesus' ministry on earth.  He and His disciples raised people from the dead, and many came out of their graves at the crucifixion of Jesus.  ALL of these were raised BEFORE Jesus was resurrected.

So Acts 26:23 tells us that Jesus was the FIRST to receive a resurrection body.  Once we know this, we have no problem with the 2 witnesses.  Most likely they will be Enoch and Elijah, the only 2 people who never physically died, according to Scripture.  And Heb 9:27 says that everyone is appointed to die once, and then the judgment.  So even the 2 witnesses get their opportunity to physically die once.  Both of them were taken to heaven without resurrection.  And they will do it again.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The so called 1st resurrection is not 1st in order, but 1st in import.

Yep.  Just what I explained.  Jesus received the FIRST resurrection body.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It is not the first, and the 2nd is not the 2nd in order, it's the 2nd death. These are not minor distinctions.

I disagree.  ALL believers will receive their resurrection body at the Second Advent, so it IS "in order", just as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

Then, the "next" resurrection will be 1,000 years after the Second Advent, for unbelievers only, and they don't get an immortal glorified body.  Just their own miserable carcass back, just to appear at the GWT judgment.  Then, when cast into the LOF, their poor miserable mortal body will DIE AGAIN, yet their souls will exist in a state of torment "day and night for ever and ever".  Rev 20:10

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If what the text says in Rev 20:4 Rev 15:2 and Rev 7:11-14 can't be held to the specifics of the text, but 1 Cor 15:23 is assessed as specific to 'all believers' then we enter into confusion.

I'm not at all confused.  And you haven't shown any confusion on my part.  

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You aren't if you are adding to the relevant verses in Rev to include 'all believers from all time' when Rev 7, 15, and 20 all identify beyond doubt the ones pictured in heaven come out from within from GT and have faced the beast and overcame.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It is textual evidence, but it's ambiguous and other facts must be merged with the whole.

That is what I have done.  There will be 2 resurrections of humans.  The FIRST one will be "when He comes" back, the Second Advent.  The next one will be 1,000 years later, at the end of the MK, for unbelievers only.  And their resurrected mortal carcasses will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No one's salvation can be lost.  That is illogical given what Jesus Himself said

If this is the direction you are going to go here, I think I'll just be done.

OK.  But eternal security is very clearly stated in the Bible.  Unambiguously.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This isn't a form of sarcasm conducive to furthering discussion.

Could you point out my "form of sarcasm"?  I wasn't being.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Matt 25 is showing that the saved and unsaved appear together at the judgement.

Given what the REST of Scripture says, it is clear the verse in Matt 25 is a summary of both judgments, not a statement of WHEN both will occur.

So, we've got to make a decision here, if you think Matt 25 is literal for 1 general judgment for both the saved and unsaved.

Either Matt 25 is true, and Rev 20:4-6 is WRONG, or vice versa.

Since neither is wrong, BUT your view of Matt 25 contradicts Rev 20:4-6, we HAVE TO understand that Matt 25 isn't literal about 1 general judgment.

iow, it's a summary statement about the 2 judgments.  That's all.

Any other way you slice it creates a contradiction in the Bible, which I reject.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This idea is in keeping with what the rest of the text says.

I look at the WHOLE council of God.  And Rev 20:4-6 refutes your view of Matt 25.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The scenario from a great deal of evidence is;

The ones who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years are those resurrected and taken up alive from out of GT, and the rest of the dead only live again after the 1000 years, where just and righteous judgment is passed down. 

The GWT is a judgement of both saved and unsaved.

That doesn't make sense, because that would mean the reward earned by faithful believers wouldn't occur until AFTER the MK.  Nope.

When Jesus returns, there will be the wedding supper, a huge celebration of the King's return and reign on earth.  It makes perfect sense that Jesus will reward His faithful followers so they can reign with Him, as Scripture makes real clear.  

There will be believers who will reign with the King during the MK (2 Tim 2:12) and believers who will be denied reigning with Him (2 Tim 2:13).  They will be serving the King.

Your view doesn't work.

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So yes, the resurrection primary is 1000 years before the GWTJ, and the GWTJ is not only for the unsaved and both the righteous and unrighteous appear before the throne to receive just reward.

Oy!

Doesn't fit the WHOLE council of God.  You've got faithful believers from OT and NT being IN the MK yet not having what they earned.  

It makes perfect sense that Jesus will reward His faithful followers WHEN He comes back.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Both of them were taken to heaven without resurrection.  And they will do it again.

Absolutely false.. They were dead in the street for 3.5 days- AND THEY WERE RESURRECTED AND STOOD UPON THEIR FEET AT THE 7the trumpet…This is the resurrection of those that belong to him at the last day, at the 7th trumpet, at the end of this age, when all the saints get their rewards and they are raised in incorruption - and the those who are alive and remain  are changed at this exact time 

As Paul said- WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. AND IT DOES NOT SAY “And only the two witnesses will be changed at the last trump.. NO - THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND.. (And it did- “And the seventh angel sounded”) and the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE .. NOT IN CORRUPTION TO DIE AGAIN.. ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!

The two witness will be returning the very same day they ascended and are part of the “much people in heaven” who will ALL COLLECTIVELY BE RETURNING WITH JESUS.. AS HE SAID- THE LORD MY GOD WILL COME AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE..” 

This includes the two witnesses, Noah, Abraham, Peter Paul and Mary and the saints who lived from Pentecost and the tribulation saints as well - They are ALL the saints of the most high

All that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth… All the former saints have died and all will come forth at the last trumpet.. 

this is when he gives rewards to his servants the prophets, the saints and to them that fear his name…

[FreeGrace]

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

Both of them were taken to heaven without resurrection.  And they will do it again.

Absolutely false.

Then what verse makes clear that they received glorified immortal bodies?

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

They were dead in the street for 3.5 days- AND THEY WERE RESURRECTED AND STOOD UPON THEIR FEET AT THE 7the trumpet…This is the resurrection of those that belong to him at the last day, at the 7th trumpet, at the end of this age, when all the saints get their rewards and they are raised in incorruption - and the those who are alive and remain  are changed at this exact time

There is just one resurrection for believers and that includes ALL believers.  So your theory does not add up with Scripture.  The 2 witnesses will get their resurrection bodies WHEN ALL believers receive theirs, which is at the Second Advent.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

As Paul said- WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. AND IT DOES NOT SAY “And only the two witnesses will be changed at the last trump

Why would Paul say that?  Reading 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:52, it is CLEAR that all believers receive a glorified immortal body at the Second Advent.  Among them will be the 2W.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

.. NO - THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND.. (And it did- “And the seventh angel sounded”) and the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE .. NOT IN CORRUPTION TO DIE AGAIN.. ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!

What you seem to not understand is that the 2W will DIE before Christ returns.  So they go back to heaven, where they have been since being removed from earth apart from death, and will accompany Christ to earth at the Second Advent.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The two witness will be returning the very same day they ascended and are part of the “much people in heaven” who will ALL COLLECTIVELY BE RETURNING WITH JESUS.. AS HE SAID- THE LORD MY GOD WILL COME AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE..”

That isn't how the Bible reads.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

This includes the two witnesses, Noah, Abraham, Peter Paul and Mary and the saints who lived from Pentecost and the tribulation saints as well - They are ALL the saints of the most high

Right!  And 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", which is a direct reference to the Second Advent.

Or prove otherwise from Scripture.

55 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

All that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth… All the former saints have died and all will come forth at the last trumpet.. 

this is when he gives rewards to his servants the prophets, the saints and to them that fear his name…

And those who are alive at Christ's return, will meet THEM (all the dead saints and Jesus) in the air.

[RdJ]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:35 AM, Diaste said:

Rev 11

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Rev 15

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, 3and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

Rev 20

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. 

Face the beast, live and reign with Christ.

Don't face the beast, wait till the 2nd resurrection. 

[One exception]

Yes that's why I believe pretrib. Jesus can't come reign on earth 1000 years and then leave Abraham and everyone else in heaven, so they were raised already before the rapture.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, it is not possible.  And here's why.  Rev 20:4-6 shows saved people (martyrs) resurrected at the Second Advent, and the plain and clear statement that this is the FIRST resurrection, and we know all unbelievers will be resurrected, which will be 1,000 years later, as the text says.

It's not the 'first' resurrection, it's the chief resurrection.

It can't be the 1st. Jesus was resurrected and many with Him at the time. The two witnesses are resurrected from death before the primary resurrection.

The first resurrection is 'first in import' not first in order.

The saved and unsaved are resurrected at the same time, after the 1000 years, as seen in Matt 25:31-46 and in the statement of Rev 20:15

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

One only has to realize that the verse about "every soul belongs to Me" is a reference to the FACT that God creates ALL souls.  So, in that sense, all souls do belong to Him.

It's not 'in a sense'. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But 1 Cor 15:23 isn't about the saved and lost.  It's only about the saved, those who receive a glorified immortal resurrection body, like Jesus' body.

True. I did not say it was. I'm pointing out 'those who are Christ's at His coming' is not clear. We know they are Christ's, but this shows possession, not an identification. Rev 7, 15 and 20 do show the makeup of those in heaven. Merging the true facts of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and the facts of Rev 7, 15, and 20, give us a clearer understanding. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure, "as IF to say".  But it's not saying that.  Just look at how all the translations on biblehub.com render the verse.  It is clear that the verse is only about saved people.

There is no context for the unsaved in that chapter.

It kinda does say that. Check the Greek. Check the Greek here too:

"only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

It doesn't mean that.  From Rev 20:4-6 we KNOW there will be 1,000 years between the FIRST and next (or final) resurrection.  There will be no saved people at the resurrection 1,000 years after the FIRST one.  Can't be.  Or the Bible is really messed up.  Which I strongly don't believe.

Sure does. Matt 25:31-46 shows both the saved and unsaved gathered before the Jesus.

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is happening at the same time/space moment proving the saved and the unsaved appear before Jesus together; just as Rev 20:15 implies.

The scripture isn't messed up, we are. We need to listen, not demand.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, that's true.  But there is zero evidence that any of those examples received a glorified immortal body.  iow, they all died physically again.

They were resurrected and taken to heaven. You can't be taken up to heaven apart from a spiritual body and nature. 

"the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud"

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Here's the proof.  Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Jesus certainly wasn't the first to "rise from the dead".  There are several accounts from the OT and a number in the NT, during Jesus' ministry on earth.  He and His disciples raised people from the dead, and many came out of their graves at the crucifixion of Jesus.  ALL of these were raised BEFORE Jesus was resurrected.

So Acts 26:23 tells us that Jesus was the FIRST to receive a resurrection body.  Once we know this, we have no problem with the 2 witnesses.  Most likely they will be Enoch and Elijah, the only 2 people who never physically died, according to Scripture.  And Heb 9:27 says that everyone is appointed to die once, and then the judgment.  So even the 2 witnesses get their opportunity to physically die once.  Both of them were taken to heaven without resurrection.  And they will do it again.

In Acts 26:23 we again see the word 'protos'. This is primary or chief or important. If it was truly the very first, as in order, the word used would be 'proton'. The distinction is important and really has nothing to do with a glorified body or not; even though no one is raised up to heaven, after being resurrected, without one. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yep.  Just what I explained.  Jesus received the FIRST resurrection body.

Again, it's not first in order here, it's the top, chief, most important. Protos is not 1st, like winning a race. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I disagree.  ALL believers will receive their resurrection body at the Second Advent, so it IS "in order", just as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

Then, the "next" resurrection will be 1,000 years after the Second Advent, for unbelievers only, and they don't get an immortal glorified body.  Just their own miserable carcass back, just to appear at the GWT judgment.  Then, when cast into the LOF, their poor miserable mortal body will DIE AGAIN, yet their souls will exist in a state of torment "day and night for ever and ever".  Rev 20:10

Nope. Matt 25 and Rev 20 show the saved and the unsaved at the same judgement. This is the truth of the matter.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm not at all confused.  And you haven't shown any confusion on my part.  

I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

It is confusion. Holding one text to the specifics of the written word and then massaging another text to render an acceptable verdict is unacceptable. This is what happens when demands are made on the text instead of letting the word speak.

What I'm saying is, there is undeniable evidence of the identity of those in heaven about the throne in the Revelation. The identity of those is the only identity we see, the only time we see WHO, WHEN, WHAT answered. That is not seen in 1 Cor 15. In fact, 1 Cor 15:23 is misconstrued to mean 'all from all time' when the English text doesn't say that, and the Greek text looks like it's Jesus presence. There is no evidence in 1 Cor 15:23 for the 'all from all time' idea. It's just, 'those that are Christ's' and that is not defined in 1 Cor 15:23, it's a church doctrine only.

Ergo, the resurrected of 1 Cor 14 and 1 Thess 4 cannot be 'all from all time' as 'all from all time' are not the ones pictured in Rev 7, 15 and 20. Rev 7, 15 and 20 doesn't have an, et al. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 The FIRST one will be "when He comes" back, the Second Advent.  The next one will be 1,000 years later, at the end of the MK, for unbelievers only.  And their resurrected mortal carcasses will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF.

It's a long standing mistake. Christianity as a whole is wrong on this one.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

OK.  But eternal security is very clearly stated in the Bible.  Unambiguously.

And that security is assured no matter when it is applied, even 1000 years later. The whole planet has waited for 6000 years. What about those in the grave that have been waiting for 1000, 2000, 4000 years? Their eternal security isn't lost.

The Gospel of John shows eternal security 'at the last day'.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Given what the REST of Scripture says, it is clear the verse in Matt 25 is a summary of both judgments, not a statement of WHEN both will occur.

It is. So from the text, show Matt 25 is two judgments separated by 1000 years.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

So, we've got to make a decision here, if you think Matt 25 is literal for 1 general judgment for both the saved and unsaved.

Either Matt 25 is true, and Rev 20:4-6 is WRONG, or vice versa.

Since neither is wrong, BUT your view of Matt 25 contradicts Rev 20:4-6, we HAVE TO understand that Matt 25 isn't literal about 1 general judgment.

iow, it's a summary statement about the 2 judgments.  That's all.

Any other way you slice it creates a contradiction in the Bible, which I reject.

Not wrong if it's only the ones from GT we see in Revelation and the GWT judgement is for both the saved and the unsaved at the same time, which it is.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I look at the WHOLE council of God.  And Rev 20:4-6 refutes your view of Matt 25.

No. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That doesn't make sense, because that would mean the reward earned by faithful believers wouldn't occur until AFTER the MK.  Nope.

Read Revelation 2-3.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

When Jesus returns, there will be the wedding supper, a huge celebration of the King's return and reign on earth.  It makes perfect sense that Jesus will reward His faithful followers so they can reign with Him, as Scripture makes real clear.  

Yes, and Rev 7, 15 and 20 make it clear who they are.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There will be believers who will reign with the King during the MK (2 Tim 2:12) and believers who will be denied reigning with Him (2 Tim 2:13).  They will be serving the King.

That is true. However, the full evidence of that time is revealed in Revelation. Revelation tells us WHO and WHEN. At the time Paul wrote to Timothy he did not have that insight, no one did. Paul isn't incorrect, Revelation clarifies.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Your view doesn't work.

Doesn't fit the WHOLE council of God.  You've got faithful believers from OT and NT being IN the MK yet not having what they earned.  

It makes perfect sense that Jesus will reward His faithful followers WHEN He comes back.

It does. 

Faithful believers from the OT have been waiting how long now? 4000-5000 years?