Saving Faith - Eternal Security

[Dennis1209]

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Considering to whom Jesus was talking, He did not say, "O thou of no faith." He told Peter you have doubts; you do not trust me 100%. We know about Peter's denial three times, renouncing Jesus. Exactly how much love, faith, and belief are necessary for Salvation and eternal life? A kernel or everything we have in us?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The above is an imperative, a command. I have and am still wrestling with the interpretation. Are we saved if one does not have that level of love, belief, and faith?

Let me give a valid account of someone wrestling with his eternal security. If I recall, it might have been R. C. Sproul asking this individual three questions, and to paraphrase from memory:

·         Do you love the Lord perfectly? His answer was no.

·         Could you love and trust the Lord more? His response was yes.

·         Do you at least love the Lord a little and trust Him some? His answer was yes.

With his answer in the affirmative to the last question, does this man possess saving faith and eternal security if he dies right then? Do we mature and grow in our love and trust with time and understanding of what Jesus did for us?

I am interested in your thoughts.

[Marilyn C]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Considering to whom Jesus was talking, He did not say, "O thou of no faith." He told Peter you have doubts; you do not trust me 100%. We know about Peter's denial three times, renouncing Jesus. Exactly how much love, faith, and belief are necessary for Salvation and eternal life? A kernel or everything we have in us?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The above is an imperative, a command. I have and am still wrestling with the interpretation. Are we saved if one does not have that level of love, belief, and faith?

Let me give a valid account of someone wrestling with his eternal security. If I recall, it might have been R. C. Sproul asking this individual three questions, and to paraphrase from memory:

·         Do you love the Lord perfectly? His answer was no.

·         Could you love and trust the Lord more? His response was yes.

·         Do you at least love the Lord a little and trust Him some? His answer was yes.

With his answer in the affirmative to the last question, does this man possess saving faith and eternal security if he dies right then? Do we mature and grow in our love and trust with time and understanding of what Jesus did for us?

I am interested in your thoughts.

Hi Dennis,

I think the illustration has to do with a particular test, or trial. We all go through those and as we die to self and trust the Lord in the situations of life, we grow mature and therefore develop mature faith. 

`Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character, and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.` (Rom. 5: 1 - 5)

[Sower]

34 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Exactly how much love, faith, and belief are necessary for Salvation and eternal life?

                   As a grain of mustard seed.

[Dennis1209]

13 minutes ago, Sower said:

                   As a grain of mustard seed.

Good point. One of the smallest seeds (representing faith) yet grows into something huge. But, thus far, the question has not been answered. This man has a bit of faith and trust, does he have eternal life? 

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good point. One of the smallest seeds (representing faith) yet grows into something huge. But, thus far, the question has not been answered. This man has a bit of faith and trust, does he have eternal life? 

`Now to HIM who is able to KEEP YOU from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Saviour, who alone is wise, be glory, and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.`  (Jude 24)

It is the Lord who saves us and our faith is related to growing in maturity, our character of developing trust in the Lord. Whatever `level` of faith we have does not determine our salvation but maturity in the Lord. 

 

[Sower]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

             "Are we saved if one does not have that level of love, belief, and faith?"

I would say I did not have that level of faith at my spiritual birth, nor do I have it now.
I can think of only one who had ever had it, and still does.
It does not mean I do not strive to, and still run the race, seeking grace and mercy.
If God says we all sin, then we are all missing his mark, however often, 
so I believe that no one can say all to any of your question, Dennis.
I usually think  of Paul (console myself) when it comes to being so frustrated by my weaknesses, and my wicked heart.
I never saw/noticed that verse in the context you brought out.
What about  this one;          “But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

Perfect in man's dictionary;  complete and without defect or blemish

In scripture;  “complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous
In Christ I believe I am perfect, positionaly.

So, it is logical, when a babe is born, IN Christ, positionaly it seems he/she is perfect by scriptural definition of perfect.
They both have life.

"Are we saved if one does not have that level of love, belief, and faith?"  
I believe a babe in Christ is the same, positionaly, as a mature believer.
Should they both suffer accidental  death, they both will be with the Lord, new babe and mature believer.
My understanding.

[Georged]

Lots of thoughts to unpack here. 

1. It reminds me of the importance of repentance. Biblical repentance is more than remorse. It is a turning from sin to God. 

We are exposed to many temptations and worldly programming, often at a rate that we can't comprehend. With the Peter incident, when his eyes were turned back to the world, their influence was not overcome.

In this instance  when he talks about little faith, i don't think he is referring to not trusting Jesus fully. Rather it was a faith that was distracted by the world. 

That's why , in the Christian walk,  our faith becomes strengthened as we reprogram our mind to him.  Many unfortunately claim to have a faith that is not life changing. The bible says, we need faith to believe him totally. ( John 1.12) we need to be willing to believe God. Not a characteristic of God( that he can bring us to heaven) or our understanding of God( which will change as we grow in him)

So a faith that he will bring unconverted to heaven i don't see in the bible

2. I wonder if Christianity has a different definition of saved than the Bible.  

What ive noticed is that from our perspective and action , saved is often portrayed as future. (Believe on the lord jesus and thou shalt be saved,.. he who persevere to the end will be saved) 

From God's action, it is completed( by grace ye are saved)

I have been wondering if biblical saving is saving us from death/destruction where we have glorified bodies which is in our future. 

Often churches put labels on people as saved or unsaved and then even complicate it further by saying it's reversable or not reverseable

We need to consider the parable of the sower, while i consede our lives are culminate experiences. Not all places where the seed is planted, even if starts to grow , will survive. That's why discipleship and love and encouragement for new believers is important. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Georged

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Matthew 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Considering to whom Jesus was talking, He did not say, "O thou of no faith." He told Peter you have doubts; you do not trust me 100%. We know about Peter's denial three times, renouncing Jesus. Exactly how much love, faith, and belief are necessary for Salvation and eternal life? A kernel or everything we have in us?

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

The above is an imperative, a command. I have and am still wrestling with the interpretation. Are we saved if one does not have that level of love, belief, and faith?

Let me give a valid account of someone wrestling with his eternal security. If I recall, it might have been R. C. Sproul asking this individual three questions, and to paraphrase from memory:

·         Do you love the Lord perfectly? His answer was no.

·         Could you love and trust the Lord more? His response was yes.

·         Do you at least love the Lord a little and trust Him some? His answer was yes.

With his answer in the affirmative to the last question, does this man possess saving faith and eternal security if he dies right then? Do we mature and grow in our love and trust with time and understanding of what Jesus did for us?

I am interested in your thoughts.

When king Charles was born, was he entitled to the throne of Great Britain? The answer is yes. But suppose the Queen died the next day. Would king Charles be a good king? The answer is no, He sill does it in the diaper and he has had no training. Baby Charles has the LIFE and PEDIGREE to be an instant king, but lack MATURITY and TRAINING for the job.

The Christian becomes a son of God by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13) and then undergoes a rigorous training to reach the maturity of THE faith (1st Peter 1:4-9). But through all this our Lord works - for he is "AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith" (Heb.12:2). And although we cannot quantify how much faith is needed for salvation, it will always be enough for it is a "GIFT" from God  (Eph.2:8). What is NOT guaranteed is the process of maturing. When our Lord displayed His glory on the  Mount only THREE disciples were with Him. The other nine were in the valley overcome by a demon. The Lord's question is, in context with 3 "on high" and 9 "in defeat", "will He find faith when he returns.

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

When king Charles was born, was he entitled to the throne of Great Britain? The answer is yes. But suppose the Queen died the next day. Would king Charles be a good king? The answer is no, He sill does it in the diaper and he has had no training. Baby Charles has the LIFE and PEDIGREE to be an instant king, but lack MATURITY and TRAINING for the job.

The Christian becomes a son of God by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13) and then undergoes a rigorous training to reach the maturity of THE faith (1st Peter 1:4-9). But through all this our Lord works - for he is "AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith" (Heb.12:2). And although we cannot quantify how much faith is needed for salvation, it will always be enough for it is a "GIFT" from God  (Eph.2:8). What is NOT guaranteed is the process of maturing. When our Lord displayed His glory on the  Mount only THREE disciples were with Him. The other nine were in the valley overcome by a demon. The Lord's question is, in context with 3 "on high" and 9 "in defeat", "will He find faith when he returns.

That would be another good topic for a conversation. I have always considered Peter, James, and John as Jesus’s inner circle. They were present in some of the most significant events; the other nine were not.

I could not even speculate why the Lord chose these three unless it involved the law of two or three witnesses.