"Hell" Etymology & Thoughts

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

The interesting part of this, for me is that Jesus use of Gehenna is why I believe the lost are annihilated. After all, He compares their fate to bodies being thrown into this burning pit, where stuff is partially consumed by worms and partially burned, except he clarifies that the worms don't "die" and the fire cannot be "quenched*". i.e. the fire and worms completely consume those thrown into them. They are gone, no longer to exist, except as "ashes" or "worm poop". 

I believe he uses that analogy to clarify that the lost are "thrown out to be utterly destroyed and extinguished."

*An unquenchable fire is not a fire that never goes out. It is a fire you cannot PUT OUT. But an unquenchable fire can go out on its own when it runs out of fuel. Think of a burning building with no fire hydrants around. You can't quench it, but it does go out, eventually - and the building is gone.

 

13 minutes ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I've come to believe similarly, though I admittedly don't place a lot of weight on it. It's enough for me to know that I don't want to be there, and that when God finally does let us understand Hell's nature and duration it'll make sense to us.

After reading a book called "Hell: Three Christian Views of God's Final Solution" (by Steve Gregg), where he goes into depth in scripture on these 3 views, I realized how shallow my understanding had been.  Now my thinking is probably something of a mix between the traditional (eternal conscious torment) and annihilation. But as you said @AnOrangeCat, I don't place much weight on that - good enough to know it's a very undesirable place/state to find oneself in!

(BTW - the 3rd view is universalism, which  I think is the least likely.  While it's nice to imagine that somehow this is true, and maybe God does extend some mercy beyond what we think, there's just too much in scripture saying that some souls will not be saved.)

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

The interesting part of this, for me is that Jesus use of Gehenna is why I believe the lost are annihilated. After all, He compares their fate to bodies being thrown into this burning pit, where stuff is partially consumed by worms and partially burned, except he clarifies that the worms don't "die" and the fire cannot be "quenched*". i.e. the fire and worms completely consume those thrown into them. They are gone, no longer to exist, except as "ashes" or "worm poop". 

I believe he uses that analogy to clarify that the lost are "thrown out to be utterly destroyed and extinguished."

*An unquenchable fire is not a fire that never goes out. It is a fire you cannot PUT OUT. But an unquenchable fire can go out on its own when it runs out of fuel. Think of a burning building with no fire hydrants around. You can't quench it, but it does go out, eventually - and the building is gone.

That's my own understanding as well. 

[AnOrangeCat]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

After reading a book called "Hell: Three Christian Views of God's Final Solution" (by Steve Gregg), where he goes into depth in scripture on these 3 views, I realized how shallow my understanding had been. 

I went through that too. I was raised with the traditional view and was shocked that alternate takes even existed, and was then even more shocked on digging into it all that the arguments weren't just nonsense.

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

(BTW - the 3rd view is universalism, which  I think is the least likely.  While it's nice to imagine that somehow this is true, and maybe God does extend some mercy beyond what we think, there's just too much in scripture saying that some souls will not be saved.)

I share this view, too. As much as I'd like to believe in it universalism strikes me as the least sound and the most likely to be wishful thinking. But remember when Jesus concluded a parable saying that a servant who knows their master's will and doesn't do it will be beaten with many stripes, while a servant who doesn't know any better receives few stripes? I do feel like that fits into the picture somehow.

[Tristen]

Hi VA,

I think the reasoning behind your argument is flawed. English translations of scripture use English words - which are not found in original language Bibles due to the Bible being penned originally in non-English-speaking cultures.

"Hell" is indeed an English word with Germanic roots - defining the place of punishment in the afterlife. "Hell" is therefore an appropriate English translation of the Hebrew and Greek words appearing in the Biblical manuscripts.

 

 

[Vine Abider]

13 hours ago, Tristen said:

Hi VA,

I think the reasoning behind your argument is flawed. English translations of scripture use English words - which are not found in original language Bibles due to the Bible being penned originally in non-English-speaking cultures.

"Hell" is indeed an English word with Germanic roots - defining the place of punishment in the afterlife. "Hell" is therefore an appropriate English translation of the Hebrew and Greek words appearing in the Biblical manuscripts.

 

 

I get that, and maybe it's not the very worst word I suppose.  ("church" to me is one of the most egregious word substitutions)  But I do think it lends itself to more manmade ideas, that are disassociated directly with the bible.  And then it is also used in the KJV for all 4 other words, so I don't think that's a very effective usage.  At least most modern translations use the different words for Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartaurus.

[Tristen]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I get that, and maybe it's not the very worst word I suppose.  ("church" to me is one of the most egregious word substitutions)  But I do think it lends itself to more manmade ideas, that are disassociated directly with the bible.  And then it is also used in the KJV for all 4 other words, so I don't think that's a very effective usage.  At least most modern translations use the different words for Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartaurus.

I think it is an inherent problem with having to use a translation.  Some concepts don't translate easily from one language to another.

But there is nothing to stop us investigating further.   One might even suggest we are encouraged to do so.

 

 

[Starise]

I have been round and round and round in my own thinking about this, and I believe at least some of it lends to our natural inclinations and biases about how we think something "should" be. Do we approach this entirely logically or allow our emotions to delegate the outcome? 

Never the less, what we think about it is the only thing that will change in this case and not the state of what is. To say there are words we misunderstand in the bible that do not refer to the place of eternal torment is true, however it never negated the words that ARE there, and which DO support a place of eternal punishment, so in order to have a "once and done" approach to this there are many hurdels to attempt to explain away which usually ends in someone saying this didn't mean that and this is symbolic etc etc ad nauseum.

The emotional side of me doesn't want a hell at all, but since none of this cares about any of that, I am still bound to sound biblical hermeneutics and interpretations.

I wish there was a looking glass here on earth that we could all take a look at the place and see in great detail what it really is like there, but some would never sleep another wink for the nightmares. Some people say they've been there. Recently I watched a vid where a man who was raised buddhist  tried to kill himself and temporarily separted from his body. His story is eerily similar to others who have temporarily died. Common explanations include, a long dropping into darkness like a roller coaster ride, a terrible stench, intense heat, pain worse than any pain you could imagine, very tall demons who engage in torture of the inhabitants of the place, lots of other people there. Every evil horrible thing you can imagine happening here is there in spades and then some with no hope, which is probably the worst part of it. No hope. 100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years. You are a permanent inhabitant.

The man I mentioned is now a believer, and I sometimes wonder if the Lord allows these temporary glimpses so some people can see the reality of the place. In fact I don't know why all doubters can't take a dunk in that tank.

[Dennis1209]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:28 AM, Still Alive said:

The interesting part of this, for me is that Jesus use of Gehenna is why I believe the lost are annihilated. After all, He compares their fate to bodies being thrown into this burning pit, where stuff is partially consumed by worms and partially burned, except he clarifies that the worms don't "die" and the fire cannot be "quenched*". i.e. the fire and worms completely consume those thrown into them. They are gone, no longer to exist, except as "ashes" or "worm poop". 

I believe he uses that analogy to clarify that the lost are "thrown out to be utterly destroyed and extinguished."

*An unquenchable fire is not a fire that never goes out. It is a fire you cannot PUT OUT. But an unquenchable fire can go out on its own when it runs out of fuel. Think of a burning building with no fire hydrants around. You can't quench it, but it does go out, eventually - and the building is gone.

Not that I am correct, but my thoughts differ on annihilation for a number of reasons. I take the Genesis creation account, that man was created with immortal souls. I take the “second death” as eternal separation from God.

For me, the clincher is below. After 1,000 years, the Antichrist and false prophet are still in the Lake of Fire, being tormented day and night, forever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I have found no place in scripture that hints at the opposite of ex nihilo.

[Mary8]

Luke 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[farouk]

2 hours ago, Mary8 said:

Luke 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

@Mary8 Solemn passage; shows we need to get out there with the Gospel...........