"Hell" Etymology & Thoughts

[Vine Abider]

17 minutes ago, Starise said:

I believe a study or sifting here will reveal the truth of it. It seems to me this line of thought is often associated with a teaching that there's nothing to this hell thing so we can all just go back to whatever it was we were doing. I know this is not your position, just making the point that this is often used as an argument against hell being what it is, terms aside. The western assocition for it is in keeping with what it really is for the most part.

Jesus Himself talked about people going there. Why would he do that, even in parable form, unless it is a real place where real people will end up?

You may remember me as arguing in the past for annihlation, but in all good concience I can no longer do so. Really annihlation is an easy out for someone who plans to committ suicide anyway. They think they will just go into nothingness. Won't they be surprised.

In reading that book I mentioned on the 3 Christian views of hell, some who hold the annihilation view think that there may be a certain amount of torment exacted upon the soul, before they go into nothingness.  That is, if someone has a lot of sin "fuel" then they might burn for a long time.  For instance, Hitler or Stalin might be burning for a much longer period than someone who is a pretty decent guy, but was an atheist. 

[Starise]

11 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

In reading that book I mentioned on the 3 Christian views of hell, some who hold the annihilation view think that there may be a certain amount of torment exacted upon the soul, before they go into nothingness.  That is, if someone has a lot of sin "fuel" then they might burn for a long time.  For instance, Hitler or Stalin might be burning for a much longer period than someone who is a pretty decent guy, but was an atheist. 

Two of those views is wrong

The view you present seems like a hybrid view I've never heard before. A shoe horn on a shoehorn? 

As I mentioned, I really WISH for everything there wasn't any place where people suffer, yet at some point there has to be a separation as you may agree. In the face of tradgedy the Godly look to the Lord, whereas the ungodly develop a few more curses. We will be changed, and are being changed daily. The lost will continue to spiral into ever more lowly thoughts and behaviors based on their direction downwards until one day, as @Neighbor 's sermon from a great pastor relected so well, hell will be terrible with people continuing to do terrible things all knawing at one another, in addition to all of the other stuff.

I'm always interested in more info on any topic that may cause me to re evaluate. Does that idea have a supporting text or texts?

[Vine Abider]

9 minutes ago, Starise said:

Two of those views is wrong

The view you present seems like a hybrid view I've never heard before. A shoe horn on a shoehorn? 

As I mentioned, I really WISH for everything there wasn't any place where people suffer, yet at some point there has to be a separation as you may agree. In the face of tradgedy the Godly look to the Lord, whereas the ungodly develop a few more curses. We will be changed, and are being changed daily. The lost will continue to spiral into ever more lowly thoughts and behaviors based on their direction downwards until one day, as @Neighbor 's sermon from a great pastor relected so well, hell will be terrible with people continuing to do terrible things all knawing at one another, in addition to all of the other stuff.

I'm always interested in more info on any topic that may cause me to re evaluate. Does that idea have a supporting text or texts?

Well now yer gonna make me go find that book and find the place it talks about that idea . . .

(BTW - a shoehorn is used to help a foot go in a shoe, which is what the shoe was actually made for . . . a foot )

[Starise]

29 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Well now yer gonna make me go find that book and find the place it talks about that idea . . .

(BTW - a shoehorn is used to help a foot go in a shoe, which is what the shoe was actually made for . . . a foot )

Nah, that's ok. I probably wouldn't have bought it anyhow.

I borrowed a great grandpa term there that means trying to force something that doesn't fit. Like a foot that's too big for a shoe, so they used a shoe horn. I have seen one. They are antiques because most shoes now stretch.

There's probably a 2023 term for the same thing. 

[WilliamL]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:37 AM, Vine Abider said:

The word hell is not actually found in the bible, but is rather substituted in the KJV for these words: 

Sheol: used in 65 times in OT - considered the place or state of all the dead

Hades:  used 11 times in NT - same basic meaning as Sheol (literally means "not to see")

Tartaurus: used 1 time in NT - is stated only as applying to fallen angels

Gehenna*: used 12 times in NT - an actual place of burning trash and condemned people's corpses . . . a valley near Jerusalem.  THIS IS THE TERM THAT MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES "HELL" IN MODERN THEOLOGY.

* Gehenna, of these four words, is the term that most closely conveys eternal, conscious torment.  Yet it is only used 11 times in three gospels (Mathew, Mark & Luke) and once, metaphorically in James 3:6.  (If this is such an important doctrinal concept of the New Testament, why does Paul, Peter and John not mention it in any of their writings?) 

First off, Tartarus is just the Greek name for the Abyss, wherein the fallen angels were cast at the time of the Flood. According to the Greeks (Homer), Tartarus was viewed as being as far below Hades as Hades is below the earth. The Abyss will be opened at the 5th Trumpet.

The name Gehenna was symbolically used to express the place of torment in Sheol, which, according to the Hebrews, was the abode of all the dead, righteous and unrighteous. The righteous Hebrews were in "Abraham's bosom." The unrighteous dead of the Jews, and all the other unrighteous peoples, endure various degrees of torment in Hades/Sheol.

When Jesus ascended from the dead, "taking captivity captive," the righteous (those who accepted the Gospel He preached to them while in Hades/Sheol) ascended with Him. Therefore, there are only unrighteous inhabitants in Hades/Sheol at this time. The souls who die in Christ go to be with Him in heaven.

When Jesus returns, Hades/Sheol will be emptied out when the dead are resurrected; although it will begin to fill up again during the Millennium.

John 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Edited November 14, 2023 by WilliamL

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Nah, that's ok. I probably wouldn't have bought it anyhow.

I borrowed a great grandpa term there that means trying to force something that doesn't fit. Like a foot that's too big for a shoe, so they used a shoe horn. I have seen one. They are antiques because most shoes now stretch.

There's probably a 2023 term for the same thing. 

Well while I'm finding it in that book, here's an online article that talks on this subject of proportionality: https://www.premierchristianity.com/home/proportional-punishment-in-hell/1961.article

Basically it says:

1. all not accepting Christ go to "hell"

2. once there, punishment is experienced commensurate with their sin

And after that an annihilationist would say their soul is then destroyed (which is eternal destruction).

A couple article quotes:

"Jesus also teaches proportional punishment. In his parable of the dissolute servants (Luke 12:45-48), a master returned unexpectedly, finding that his chief servant had opened the wine store and all the servants were drunk. He punished the chief servant with ‘many blows’, but punished those who’d followed his example with ‘few blows’ because they weren’t so aware that it was wrong. The imagery of the parable is clearly talking about hell: ‘The master…will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers’ (v46). It teaches that God is a fair judge who assigns proportional torment in hell.

"A doctrine about hell being everlasting torment for all sinners is (to most people) self-evidently unjust and disproportionate. But this does not take into account the totality of Jesus’ teaching. A murderer will suffer more than a thief – but they will both receive an eternal death sentence if they reject Jesus’ offer of forgiveness."

 

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

I believe He'll to be a real eternal torment place for unbelievers. The fact that the word Hell isn't in the original text is irrelevant for me as the texting is very clearly there. The same can be said for church or trinity. The words might not be there, but the teachings ARE!

 

I don't know why the apostles didn't mention Hell more. Maybe they didn't want people focusing on that subject too much and instead focus on how to live Christ like lives and be good witnesses now.

[Vine Abider]

@Starise here is another article on the subject of proportional punishment & annhilation:  https://www.bethinking.org/bible/bible-scandals/7-eternal-torment

Quote:

"Some theologians say that Jesus meant 'eternal torment' and others say he meant 'destruction' (ie. annihilation). Both groups are right. The gospels often refer to the terrible torment of hell (Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28), but they also refer to 'destruction' (apollumi) which is also translated 'perishing' – for example, “whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16; see also Matthew 10:28; 18:14). The concept of 'destruction' in hell is also found in the rest of the New Testament – for example, “they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9; see also Romans 9:22; James 4:12). Both interpretations of 'eternal punishment' can be true if the punishment of hell involves torment followed by destruction (though it means that the torment suffered must be for a limited time). Jesus’ listeners wouldn’t have been surprised by this dual aspect of punishment, because the Jewish passage quoted above similarly spoke of "terror” followed by “extinction” and “doleful sorrow” followed by “utter destruction”.

[Your closest friendnt]

11 hours ago, Starise said:

And these were the words of Jesus if I'm not mistaken. Since requests can be made from this place , i.e. the rich man asking for help for his 5 brothers, who it seems are headed for the same destination. I wondered if some of those requests are granted if they are reasonable requests. As lonely as it must be there, that the rich man would not want his own family there for company speaks volumes.

In this parable Jesus is no where, I mean the Gospel of Jesus it was not yet preached to them at the time both the rich man and Lazarus died. But we do not know yet about the brothers of the rich man...in any case Jesus Christ died for all and he is the door to Heaven and for that reason every one has to be judged by Jesus according to his believing in him or according to refuse to believe in him and that will include both the rich and the poor man, Jesus Christ whom God has appointed to be the Judge of all people no mater when they lived. Jesus Christ has to decide the abode of everyone after his death.  Every one will bow down before him and to be judged before his Throne that will include both the rich man and the poor man. This was said because Jesus wanted to stress out that the rich cannot bye their way to Heaven. Gifts to God and works of charity the can not be used for means to enter Heaven.  

Edited November 15, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:02 PM, itty-bitty lamb said:

i see what you are saying. It is very fascinating to discover and learn how words have been substituted over time in various translations. Most of the time, i've found when this has happened, some of the meaning of a word, intention, or definition across languages become lost.

Just wanted to comment on this plausible interaction with a nonbeliever though, that i feel we should be mindful to meet someone intellectually where they are coming from. A lot of people in my southern parts use the word hell all the time. The knit and grit of the bible may not be a great starting point for someone trying to come to terms with the existence of a nightmare in the afterlife. On the other hand, i know of an unsaved friend of mine who loves discussions like these, and anything to get his mind on God and thinking about Jesus is a win in my book. So yes, a very interesting tid bit here, for a selective group of nonbelievers, i would feel. Just not for everyone! 

Interesting to look how the apostle Paul preached the Gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul and the other disciples never mentioned the word Gehenna because they knew something that this place had nothing to do with the afterlife. 

They preached to the Jews that when they will die they will not be gathered to Abraham because God in Jesus Christ gave to Abraham what he had promised to him and for him and his children. He gave them the Heavenly Inheritance in Jesus Christ so they were gathered from the Bosom of Abraham from Sheol to Jesus Christ and God where they were in the Heavenly place. 

Abraham was in Jesus Christ and if they wanted to be with Abraham they had to believe in Jesus Christ to be under the Atonement of the blood of Jesus Christ.  This is why Jesus had to die to shed the blood of the New Covenant. 

In the day of Pentecost the people who believe in Jesus Christ wanted to have their sins forgiven in Jesus Christ to be in the Atonement under the blood of of the Slain Lamb of God. Because they realize that they were in their sins because the Sinai Covenant was over and they were in the New Covenant.  Because they realized that the Temple and the Priesthood were comon and not sanctified by God even though those who offered them erroneously believed that they were sanctified and not common. 

They never mention the word Gehenna but they mentioned the word Seol when they quote from the Psalms. This is the place where they went in the Old Covenant where the Israelites were gathered to Abraham after their death. 

Jesus Christ said that Abraham knew of the day when he Jesus will descend to him to where he was with all the other Israelites including David and he rejoice knowing from John the Baptist that the time has come for them to leave that place and be in the presence with their God for evermore. 

Abraham and John the Baptist and David knew that for Jesus the Messiah of God had to die because that was the only way to descend to where they were. They knew that only in their Spirit form the people could go there through the physical earth. No one in his physical body had ever been down there that it was impossible just asked the children in the kindergarten who knows only the worms can live in the dust of the earth and only in the surface. Any other organism who is found in the dust of the earth is in bone matter. 

Everyone has to appear before Jesus Christ the apointed judge for all people who ever lived for their final judgment. Every one that ever lived is in the books of God and the final destination has to be recorded in the book for record keeping. No one has to be missing for ever. If he cannot be found in Jesus Christ then they will be found in the place away from the Light of God, away from God in the place appointed by God for those who have refused to believe in Jesus Christ.