"Hell" Etymology & Thoughts

[Starise]

14 hours ago, Mary8 said:

Luke 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

And these were the words of Jesus if I'm not mistaken. Since requests can be made from this place , i.e. the rich man asking for help for his 5 brothers, who it seems are headed for the same destination. I wondered if some of those requests are granted if they are reasonable requests. As lonely as it must be there, that the rich man would not want his own family there for company speaks volumes.

[Still Alive]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Not that I am correct, but my thoughts differ on annihilation for a number of reasons. I take the Genesis creation account, that man was created with immortal souls. I take the “second death” as eternal separation from God.

For me, the clincher is below. After 1,000 years, the Antichrist and false prophet are still in the Lake of Fire, being tormented day and night, forever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I have found no place in scripture that hints at the opposite of ex nihilo.

Revelation is a dream and the antichrist and false prophet are not representative of all mankind. It is also all symbolism. Jesus is not literally a lamb, there is no literal man with clay and iron feet, etc.

And unlike the ancient Greeks, I don't believe man inherently has an immortal soul. It's why it says in my bible to fear the one that can destroy both flesh and soul (the actual person occupying the flesh) in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28. 

The annihilation take also matches God's MO regarding how he deals with enemies in the OT. He never tortures anyone after he kills them. They are simply like chess pieces removed from the table. They are gone.

However, this life can be and often is torture for his enemies. Death actually ends it. However, I could be wrong. There may be a case that I've not found yet where he does torture someone after death other than in a parable (Lazarus and the rich man)

Edited November 14, 2023 by Still Alive

[Dennis1209]

This thread is a timely topic for me, the subject of this week's Sunday School lesson. I generally like to verify the accuracy of the author and add some additional information on the history of the person, place, or thing.

Though the author of our lesson and our KJV Bible is technically accurate in using the word “hell” as a sense of you do not want to be there. The word hell is descriptive of three different places, Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna lumped together. It is misleading in the various contexts used. Much is missed with a cursory reading of the KJV and others, it takes studies, Greek-Hebrew lexicons, checking various Bible translations, or commentaries for a deeper dive.

As @Vine Abider describes, the concept and reason hell was chosen in some Bible translations is complex in the mythology and some long reads. A couple of early translations such as Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) correctly translate the Greek and Hebrew words (Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna). It would be too long to detail the differences.

It is interesting Jesus talked about Hell much more than He did Heaven and more on the subject than all the apostles. The synoptic Gospels talk about hell, and Paul mentions the grave (Hades – Hell) in 1 Cor. 15:55. Again, it is interesting John does not mention it in his Gospel, but four times in Revelation.

Regardless of the word translated, be it a temporary holding place, eternal place after judgment, or the depths, level of pain, suffering, and torment; my takeaway is it is a place of no hope, total separation from God, and eternal hellish conscience existence.

 

[Still Alive]

2 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

This thread is a timely topic for me, the subject of this week's Sunday School lesson. I generally like to verify the accuracy of the author and add some additional information on the history of the person, place, or thing.

Though the author of our lesson and our KJV Bible is technically accurate in using the word “hell” as a sense of you do not want to be there. The word hell is descriptive of three different places, Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna lumped together. It is misleading in the various contexts used. Much is missed with a cursory reading of the KJV and others, it takes studies, Greek-Hebrew lexicons, checking various Bible translations, or commentaries for a deeper dive.

As @Vine Abider describes, the concept and reason hell was chosen in some Bible translations is complex in the mythology and some long reads. A couple of early translations such as Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) correctly translate the Greek and Hebrew words (Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna). It would be too long to detail the differences.

It is interesting Jesus talked about Hell much more than He did Heaven and more on the subject than all the apostles. The synoptic Gospels talk about hell, and Paul mentions the grave (Hades – Hell) in 1 Cor. 15:55. Again, it is interesting John does not mention it in his Gospel, but four times in Revelation.

Regardless of the word translated, be it a temporary holding place, eternal place after judgment, or the depths, level of pain, suffering, and torment; my takeaway is it is a place of no hope, total separation from God, and eternal hellish conscience existence.

 

I never include Tartarus in the list because the word is used once in the bible, is in a book rife with symbolism, and specifically DOES NOT refer to humans. There is also Sheol, BTW, My understanding is that Sheol and Hades simply mean "the Grave". i.e the body is dead and buried. It's as detailed as the people of the day got with what happens after death. Kinda like how they viewed the stars and planets. 

Jesus amplified it, as did the writers of the letters in the NT. And Jesus never said "hell". He said Gehenna. And it was a real place with a real history. He used it as an example and further amplified by saying that "in this case", those thrown there will not be partially consumed. They will be completely consumed. And once something is consumed, it is gone. And its fate is "eternal".

Please keep in mind, this is all just my opinion. But the more I study God's word, pray, and (hopefully) expand my relationship with him, I have a harder and harder time grasping why I ever believed the ECT teaching. I'd even believe universalism first (all are saved to one degree or another). 

With a lot of this stuff I compare it to arguing pre-, mid-, post- or no-rapture. We'll find out when it happens. Regarding the fate of the lost, all I'm willing to say is that one's condition is eternal life if they are saved. The lost do not enjoy that "status". And I don't see death as a figure of speech. I see it as meaning "dead", and I think Jesus was doing all he could to make it clear by using the Gehenna example.

Last thought: The people I spar with that most tenaciously hold on to the ECT message are anti-Christians that hate Christianity. It is their primary weapon against Christianity. Take that arrow out of their quiver and their whole case collapses. It removes the "vinictiveness" of the God of the bible who is supposed to be about love (and love is not earned).

[Dennis1209]

33 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Revelation is a dream and the antichrist and false prophet are not representative of all mankind. It is also all symbolism. Jesus is not literally a lamb, there is no literal man with clay and iron feet, etc.

And unlike the ancient Greeks, I don't believe man inherently has an immortal soul. It's why it says in my bible to fear the one that can destroy both flesh and soul (the actual person occupying the flesh) in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28. 

The annihilation take also matches God's MO regarding how he deals with enemies in the OT. He never tortures anyone after he kills them. They are simply like chess pieces removed from the table. They are gone.

However, this life can be and often is torture for his enemies. Death actually ends it. However, I could be wrong. There may be a case that I've not found yet where he does torture someone after death other than in a parable (Lazarus and the rich man)

As I frequently try to express, I am fallible and have been wrong on some view(s) before. Thus, we compare and discuss our exegesis, leading us back to scripture and study the subject matter harder, iron sharpens iron.

[Neighbor]

"The Saint’s Horror at the Sinner’s Hell" Sermon #524  

by Rev. Charles H. Spurgeon  provides testimony and enlightenment  greater than anything I might attempt to add.

https://www.spurgeongems.org/sermon/chs524.pdf

[Dennis1209]

32 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I never include Tartarus in the list because the word is used once in the bible, is in a book rife with symbolism, and specifically DOES NOT refer to humans. There is also Sheol, BTW, My understanding is that Sheol and Hades simply mean "the Grave". i.e the body is dead and buried. It's as detailed as the people of the day got with what happens after death. Kinda like how they viewed the stars and planets. 

Jesus amplified it, as did the writers of the letters in the NT. And Jesus never said "hell". He said Gehenna. And it was a real place with a real history. He used it as an example and further amplified by saying that "in this case", those thrown there will not be partially consumed. They will be completely consumed. And once something is consumed, it is gone. And its fate is "eternal".

Please keep in mind, this is all just my opinion. But the more I study God's word, pray, and (hopefully) expand my relationship with him, I have a harder and harder time grasping why I ever believed the ECT teaching. I'd even believe universalism first (all are saved to one degree or another). 

With a lot of this stuff I compare it to arguing pre-, mid-, post- or no-rapture. We'll find out when it happens. Regarding the fate of the lost, all I'm willing to say is that one's condition is eternal life if they are saved. The lost do not enjoy that "status". And I don't see death as a figure of speech. I see it as meaning "dead", and I think Jesus was doing all he could to make it clear by using the Gehenna example.

Last thought: The people I spar with that most tenaciously hold on to the ECT message are anti-Christians that hate Christianity. It is their primary weapon against Christianity. Take that arrow out of their quiver and their whole case collapses. It removes the "vinictiveness" of the God of the bible who is supposed to be about love (and love is not earned).

Regardless of how often it is used, you still confirm a point I was addressing. Sheol – Hades, the grave, and Tartarus, are all lumped together as “hell” in the KJV and others. There are big differences between who, what, when, and where.

I thought I was making the Greek wording clear on the words spoken and translated differently. I guess not.  

[Know Jah]

I think this is very interesting about the word Hell. And I agree its not in the bible. And to use it for Gehenna give the wrong thought which most believe today. Because with Gehenna no live bodies was through there. Also the thought don't harmonize with Jeremiah 19:5 where God says the thought of burning people He NEVER thought of - NEVER came to his mind.

[Still Alive]

51 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Regardless of how often it is used, you still confirm a point I was addressing. Sheol – Hades, the grave, and Tartarus, are all lumped together as “hell” in the KJV and others. There are big differences between who, what, when, and where.

Part of the problem when discussing this with me is that I have a pretty strong bias against the KJV, as well as the word, "hell". I consider the use of the word, even in my preferred version, ESV (created after the discovery of information in the dead sea scrolls and other more recent text sources, I bristle at their use of the word, "hell".

But my bias can sometimes blind me to the subtleties of the points others are trying to make. Sorry about that.

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Regardless of how often it is used, you still confirm a point I was addressing. Sheol – Hades, the grave, and Tartarus, are all lumped together as “hell” in the KJV and others. There are big differences between who, what, when, and where.

I thought I was making the Greek wording clear on the words spoken and translated differently. I guess not.  

I believe a study or sifting here will reveal the truth of it. It seems to me this line of thought is often associated with a teaching that there's nothing to this hell thing so we can all just go back to whatever it was we were doing. I know this is not your position, just making the point that this is often used as an argument against hell being what it is, terms aside. The western assocition for it is in keeping with what it really is for the most part.

Jesus Himself talked about people going there. Why would he do that, even in parable form, unless it is a real place where real people will end up?

You may remember me as arguing in the past for annihlation, but in all good concience I can no longer do so. Really annihlation is an easy out for someone who plans to committ suicide anyway. They think they will just go into nothingness. Won't they be surprised.