Transgression of Israel still prevails now until the 70th week of Daniel is finished

[R. Hartono]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 9%3A24&version=KJV 

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem)  to finish transgression and to make an end of sins.......

The 70th week has not been finished because there is no end of sins in Israel yet. 

Does what Gabriel said mean transgression still prevails among unbelieving present Israel before the 70 week is finished ?

Until Lord Jesus returns to Armageddon battle to take back Israel and the world and then begin His Millennium, transgression still prevalent among the Jews and in Jerusalem. Isnt that what Gabriel meant ?

One of the worst end times transgression in Israel is the plan to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem as written in Revelation 11, which will be for antichrist and false prophet operation.

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/daniels-70-weeks-of-years/

 

 

Edited April 11 by R. Hartono

[Charlie744]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:18 PM, R. Hartono said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel 9%3A24&version=KJV 

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon the holy city (Jerusalem)  to finish transgression and to make an end of sins

The 70th week has not been finished because there is no everlasting righteousness on earth yet. 

Does what Gabriel said mean transgression still prevails among unbelieving present Israel before the 70 week is finished ?

Until Lord Jesus returns to Armageddon battle to take back Israel and the world and then begin His Millennium, transgression still prevalent among the Jews and in Jerusalem. Isnt that what Gabriel meant ?

One of the worst end times transgression in Israel is the plan to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem as written in Revelation 11, which will be for antichrist and false prophet operation.

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/daniels-70-weeks-of-years/

 

 

The Messiah began His ministry on the first day of the 70th week. He was given the final 7 years to fulfill the 6 requirements found in 9:24. And despite being "cut off" in the middle  of the week, He indeed accomplished all 6 of them. However, you must remember that He did not come to the earth to reign but to "set up" His Kingdom. He did bring in His everlasting righteousness, He did bring in forgiveness of sin, transgressions and inquities. He was "anointed" by God on the first day of the 70th week (His baptism). 

Jesus did all of His requirements in an "already, but not yet" manner. In other words, all 6 have been fulfilled SHOULD YOU BELIEVE HE IS THE MESSIAH AND WILL TAKE AWAY OUR SINS BY THE CROSS. Jesus did not take away "OUR SIN NATURE" but He certainly gave us the power (Holy Spirit) to sin. If we believe in Him, He will not see our sins at His second coming. 

When God gave Moses the 10 commandments, this was, in a sense, His way to inform His people HOW they could live by His standards and obey Him. But they did not take away their sin nature. If they failed to obey the commandments, they would not be saved. 

It is exactly  the same today. Jesus will give us His Holy Spirit who will provide a better way to stay away from sin and keep  His commandments. This is the better covenant because now His Holy Spirit has unlimited power --- if we only would call upon Him. But again, no matter how powerful the Holy Spirit is, if we do not turn to Him we will not be saved. 

The physical has given way to the spiritual and it is a much better and fail safe covenant  - but only if we accept it. Through the Holy Spirit, God will bring His righteousness into our hearts and minds - should we ask for it.

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

On 11/13/2023 at 12:18 PM, Charlie744 said:

The Messiah began His ministry on the first day of the 70th week. He was given the final 7 years to fulfill the 6 requirements found in 9:24. And despite being "cut off" in the middle  of the week, He indeed accomplished all 6 of them. 

Imho the 70th week is the coming great tribulation 

Edited April 7 by R. Hartono

[Charlie744]

10 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Imho the 70th week is the coming great tribulation 

I understand that many have sent the last week far into the still future but there is no basis for it. 
 

The last week of the 70 was set aside for the Messiah to fulfill His God given mission ((9:24).

Also, He was baptized and anointed by God on the first day of that last week.

His ministry began that day and He was crucified within the 3.5 years of the final week.

He “confirmed” the New Covenant at the Cross DURING (not for) the last 7 years of the prophecy.

These are messianic prophecies and speak about the most important event in man’s history. 

Daniel written to the Jews to / prophesied about THEIR

RESTORATION back from Babylon AND the coming Messiah-ALL TO TAKE OFF PLACE WITHIN THEIR HE 70 weeks of years prophecy. 

There is NO 7 year tribulation-  this is where the 7 years comes from - there is NO 7 year covenant that will come in the future by a mythical anti-Christ figure. These are intentional misinterpretations from the 16th century church designed to try and remove the label of the “little horn” away from the papacy.

Look at how perfect these verses fit the actual events that took place DURING the last week (7 years) of the time Jesus was on the earth!

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I understand that many have sent the last week far into the still future but there is no basis for it. 
 

The last week of the 70 was set aside for the Messiah to fulfill His God given mission ((9:24).

Also, He was baptized and anointed by God on the first day of that last week.

His ministry began that day and He was crucified within the 3.5 years of the final week.

He “confirmed” the New Covenant at the Cross DURING (not for) the last 7 years of the prophecy.

These are messianic prophecies and speak about the most important event in man’s history. 

Daniel written to the Jews to / prophesied about THEIR

RESTORATION back from Babylon AND the coming Messiah-ALL TO TAKE OFF PLACE WITHIN THEIR HE 70 weeks of years prophecy. 

There is NO 7 year tribulation-  this is where the 7 years comes from - there is NO 7 year covenant that will come in the future by a mythical anti-Christ figure. These are intentional misinterpretations from the 16th century church designed to try and remove the label of the “little horn” away from the papacy.

Look at how perfect these verses fit the actual events that took place DURING the last week (7 years) of the time Jesus was on the earth!

Transgression still prevail in Israel which proofs that the 70th week of Daniel has not been reached.

The 7 years tribulation is the last 70th week. 1 week = 7 years. Where antichrist and fake prophet Will continue to rule the 2nd half in Rev 13.

[Charlie744]

21 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Transgression still prevail in Israel which proofs that the 70th week of Daniel has not been reached.

The 7 years tribulation is the last 70th week. 1 week = 7 years. Where antichrist and fake prophet Will continue to rule the 2nd half in Rev 13.

I do understand that this view (your view) is perhaps the most accepted interpretation on the 70 weeks of years issue. 
 

And this is why I attempt to show or connect the many verses in Daniel to the events that take place within the 490 years. The most important being the last week or the last 7 years of the 490 when the Messiah arrives, is crucified and fulfills His God given mission mentioned in 9:24. 
 

Transgression in Israel is no different than the transgression found in every nation, religion and people in the world.
 

I would kindly ask if you might tell me why the few events within 9:26-27 cause you to attribute them to the future and away from the Messiah.

1) Did the Messiah arrive and begin His ministry on the first day of the 70th week?

2) Was He crucified in the “midst of the week”?

3) Did He fulfill His mission given to Him by His Father  His 3.5 year ministry? (Not only ALL those mentioned in 9:24, but also to “confirm the New Covenant with His people BEFORE He returned to His Father? If not, then when did He confirm the New Covenant mentioned in these verses?

4) Did He confirm the New Covenant DURING HIS TIME ON EARTH (DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY)?  The New Covenant is not an “agreement” that lasts for a 7 year period - God does not make His Covenants that expire, especially His New Covenant that is meant to save ALL PEOPLE- both Jew and Gentile. 
 

5) The “he” in 9:27 IS “He” the Messiah. All of Daniel is about the restoration of His people and His city and the coming of the Messiah. There is nothing in His plan of restoration and that includes a mythical figure titled as the “anti-Christ.”

The above five comments /interpretations  represent those that the little horn (papacy) have constructed in the 16th century AD. Everyone has been teaching these intentional misinterpretations since then through the Catholic and Christian communities. 
 

I would respectfully ask you to tell me why they do NOT speak to the Messiah and the actual events that took place within the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. 
 

 

[AdHoc]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:17 PM, Charlie744 said:

I do understand that this view (your view) is perhaps the most accepted interpretation on the 70 weeks of years issue. 
 

And this is why I attempt to show or connect the many verses in Daniel to the events that take place within the 490 years. The most important being the last week or the last 7 years of the 490 when the Messiah arrives, is crucified and fulfills His God given mission mentioned in 9:24. 
 

Transgression in Israel is no different than the transgression found in every nation, religion and people in the world.
 

I would kindly ask if you might tell me why the few events within 9:26-27 cause you to attribute them to the future and away from the Messiah.

1) Did the Messiah arrive and begin His ministry on the first day of the 70th week?

2) Was He crucified in the “midst of the week”?

3) Did He fulfill His mission given to Him by His Father  His 3.5 year ministry? (Not only ALL those mentioned in 9:24, but also to “confirm the New Covenant with His people BEFORE He returned to His Father? If not, then when did He confirm the New Covenant mentioned in these verses?

4) Did He confirm the New Covenant DURING HIS TIME ON EARTH (DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY)?  The New Covenant is not an “agreement” that lasts for a 7 year period - God does not make His Covenants that expire, especially His New Covenant that is meant to save ALL PEOPLE- both Jew and Gentile. 
 

5) The “he” in 9:27 IS “He” the Messiah. All of Daniel is about the restoration of His people and His city and the coming of the Messiah. There is nothing in His plan of restoration and that includes a mythical figure titled as the “anti-Christ.”

The above five comments /interpretations  represent those that the little horn (papacy) have constructed in the 16th century AD. Everyone has been teaching these intentional misinterpretations since then through the Catholic and Christian communities. 
 

I would respectfully ask you to tell me why they do NOT speak to the Messiah and the actual events that took place within the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. 
 

 

In the most respectful way, may I suggest something. Often, when we study a matter we hear of multiple explanations from the foolish to the sublime. When we then put forward the results of our research we tend to attribute a wrong argument to someone who never even mentioned it. To be understood in the first instance, one must follow the words and grammar of the text. Now, brother @R. Hartono did not allude to any one of your 5 questions. His title was clear.

"Israel's transgression remains till today and will only end at the end of the last seven"

The title is valid. the prophecy is not given to reveal Messiah. It is given to "Daniel's People" and those goals have not been achieved by Daniel's People. Moreover, these goals do not even apply to Messiah.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What has "transgression" got to do with Messiah? What sins of the Messiah must be made an end of? And so on ... .

Then, what city does the Messiah destroy, and what sanctuary? I'm sure you'll agree, the Messiah does none of these. And far from causing an integral part of the Law to cease, our Lord Jesus has promised to reinstate the Passover when He comes (Lk.22:15-16). The New Covenant is made with UNITED Israel (Jer.31:31-33). That only occurs after the resurrection and gathering of all Israel (Ezekiel 37) in Matthew 24:31. And Matthew 24:31 is "after the Tribulation of those days". There can be no talk of the New Covenant. Messiah does not break any Covenant.

You have studied much and you have your position. But it does not help the argument to blame the Roman Church. We all have the text. We have, at least in the KJV, the best translators. And we have the agreement of renown students like G.H. Pember and company - well after the Reformation. And in this case we have no conflicting exposition of the English grammar. The majority position is reasonable. But if Messiah is substituted for "Thy (Daniel's) People", we will surely not get a correct meaning.

[believeinHim]

your link says, 'christinprophecy'. is this the correct way to pronounce Christin, or is it missing an a?

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In the most respectful way, may I suggest something. Often, when we study a matter we hear of multiple explanations from the foolish to the sublime. When we then put forward the results of our research we tend to attribute a wrong argument to someone who never even mentioned it. To be understood in the first instance, one must follow the words and grammar of the text. Now, brother @R. Hartono did not allude to any one of your 5 questions. His title was clear.

Thank you for your thoughts! Please understand that my interpretations are quite different than “today’s accepted interpretations,” thus I find it necessary to try and find it necessary to provide more information / reasoning behind these new interpretations. 
 

Many times I believe some of “today’s accepted interpretations” (to me a great example would be who is “he” in 9:27) are interpreted WITHOUT looking beyond the specific term or phrase- consequently, I tend to try and bring in additional interpretations to support my thinking. 
 

I have found the 12 chapters of Daniel to be almost a seamless storyline and the verses in chapter 2 will connect so well with those in 7,8,9, etc. The “fence posts” line up so well. I don’t find that at all when I read / learned of many of “today’s accepted interpretations.”

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

"Israel's transgression remains till today and will only end at the end of the last seven"

Well, here is a statement that leaves me quite wanting. I have offered enough thought and comments to try and show the 70 weeks are indeed consecutive and the 3 sections have a definite messianic purpose (most importantly, God had “set aside” the last 7 years for His Messiah to not only complete the “full restoration” of His people and His city, but He told us what He would accomplish DURING the last 7 years- despite His being “cutoff in the midst of the week.”

I do not see anything in anyone’s thoughts / responses that supports a “gap” in the timeline, a reason for NOT seeing how the Messiah’s ACTUAL events match with these prophetic verses within 9:24-27. 
 

Once again, if the Messiah is found to be the “subject” in the “restorative” verses (9:24-25), how can anyone not see the causes to His city and His people as a direct result of their rejection and crucifixion of Him in the two “destructive verses (9:26-27).

So, if someone is going to make a statement that the 7 years are thrown 2000 years in the future (along with their contention that “he” is “he” and not “HE,” as well as a few other issues, I would hope they would offer their “supporting thoughts.”

But I don’t believe I ever receive anything more than a “conclusion or statement.”

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The title is valid. the prophecy is not given to reveal Messiah. It is given to "Daniel's People" and those goals have not been achieved by Daniel's People. Moreover, these goals do not even apply to Messiah.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

Well, this is a good example of offering a “statement” without supporting background or thoughts. And here is a good example of how I am guilty of offering what you may believe is more information than what may be necessary. So, I will answer this as I see it WITH background information or thought that TIE IN AND CONNECT with the storyline throughout the 12 chapters

1) yes, we agree the prophecy is for Daniel’s people and his city. But the main theme is the “complete restoration” of both after the complete destruction by the Babylonians.

2) And the storyline of the complete restoration given to Daniel BEGINS with the removal of the first piece of furniture taken away by Jeremiah BEFORE the Babylonians could take it. So, your comment about the prophecy is not given to “reveal the Messiah” is mistaken. In fact, this IS THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THE PROPHECY (the most detailed and comprehensive parts of the “restoration” centers around the revealing of the “mareh” vision in chapter 8 AND the 70 weeks of years prophecy in chapter 9. 
 

The Jews will restore the “physical elements” of the city, the Levitical ceremonies, the Sabbatical cycles BEFORE the end of the 69th week IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BRING IN HIS MESSIAH ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70th week. This last week is not an end time event, but represents God restoring the very first piece of furniture taken - the Ark of the Covenant by Jeremiah. It all comes together WITHIN THIS 70 weeks of years prophecy. It is ALL about the coming Messiah IN THE LAST 7 YEARS OF THE PROPHECY.

3) The Jews were given their mission to restore the physical elements during this prophecy and Jesus was given His mission (9:24) during the “set aside” 7 years by His Father. This is all one wonderful prophecy to restore His people and His city back with their God.

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

What has "transgression" got to do with Messiah? What sins of the Messiah must be made an end of? And so on ... .

His sacrifice on the cross is the reason He came to us. The Levitical ceremonies- the first four of the seven were a “type and shadow” of the coming Messiah. He would do away with the need for any further animal sacrifices, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the offerings were no longer necessary because the Messiah would FULFILL THEM ALL before He returned to His Father. (Again, Daniel is all about the Messiah and the Cross).

Now, there would be no more annual ceremonies or practices. If we place our faith in the Messiah, He will no longer see our sins, our transgressions, our inequities at the time of judgment. He has paid the blood price for them.  Jesus never sinned, but He indeed took on OUR sins. 

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then, what city does the Messiah destroy, and what sanctuary? I'm sure you'll agree, the Messiah does none of these. And far from causing an integral part of the Law to cease, our Lord Jesus has promised to reinstate the Passover when He comes (Lk.22:15-16). The New Covenant is made with UNITED Israel (Jer.31:31-33). That only occurs after the resurrection and gathering of all Israel (Ezekiel 37) in Matthew 24:31. And Matthew 24:31 is "after the Tribulation of those days". There can be no talk of the New Covenant. Messiah does not break any Covenant.

I will probably have to ask you to expand on your thoughts here because there is indeed a lot to consider…

1) in 9:24 God is providing us with the “big picture” just as He did in chapter 2: He first gives us the “borders and boundaries” of the prophecy. In chapter 2, He gave us the “physical” borders and boundaries for the 4 kingdoms - everything would take place within these 4 kingdoms only, Here in 9:24, God is giving us the “time borders and boundaries” of this prophecy ALONG WITH THE LITERAL EVENTS THAT WILL BE FULFILLED OR ACCOMPLISHED BY HIS MESSIAH DURING THID PERIOD (can not separate them from within these time borders and boundaries.

So, they define the time, the place and the people this prophecy (9:25-27) will be speaking to. 

Verse 9:26 begins the “destructive” verses. And as a result of their rejecting and crucifying Him, the city, the Sanctuary, the people- everything that God had restored after Babylon would be taken away. 
 

As a result of His coming, His sacrifice on the cross, it would eliminate or do away with the ceremonial laws, the need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the holy vessels, the animal sacrifices… the Messiah FULFILLED all of them. Now, there are two instructions given by Jesus before He returned to His Father - place our faith and trust in Him and obey His commandments. 
 

The New Covenant was made with His people. As with all of God’s covenants, they are conditional. Whether Jew or Gentile, all who accept Jesus as their Litd and Savior will be saved. This is why He came - to bring us back to the Garden to be with Him. This applies to ALL after the Cross. 
 

It seems like some of your questions are generated under the assumption that someone is going to break a covenant- which I believe you are referring to the 7 year tribulation period (gap theory) and attempting to reconcile THOSE INTERPRETATIONS WITH my interpretations- can’t do that because NONE of the 7 year tribulations interpretations are correct. And that is a major issue with comparing these very new and different interpretations with those found within the 7 year tribulation theory. The 7 year tribulation theory is only found in the future period (still to come), while these new interpretations are found to take place at the time of the Messiah- apples and oranges. Heck, the reconciliation process between the two would take up an entire book on its own! 
 

But I can not do that- but that is the reason I have felt the need to add more information than what some may feel is necessary.

It took me 5 years to go through each verse in the 12 chapters and it was the most difficult assignment I could have taken in my entire life. The reason it took so long was because today’s accepted interpretations are NOT agreed with within the academic, scholarly or theological community. There is absolutely no consensus among these truly brilliant people—- someone must be wrong! 

If you would like me to send you an authors copy from Amazon (no cost to you) which will give you all the support for all of these new interpretations, please send me your contact details in a PM. 

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have studied much and you have your position. But it does not help the argument to blame the Roman Church. We all have the text. We have, at least in the KJV, the best translators. And we have the agreement of renown students like G.H. Pember and company - well after the Reformation. And in this case we have no conflicting exposition of the English grammar. The majority position is reasonable. But if Messiah is substituted for "Thy (Daniel's) People", we will surely not get a correct meaning.

As I mentioned many times before, there is absolutely no consensus among the scholarly or academic community regarding Daniel. 
 

And regarding the Roman Church, I am not bringing them into the prophecy, it is indeed God who has gone to great length to reveal his coming, the time of his coming, why he arrived when he did, how long he would continue in this earth AND He revealed at least 10 very specific actions / attributes / characteristics he would fulfill so that the little horn can only represent one entity- the papacy. But this is exactly why the Roman church in the lay 16th century commissioned two separate studies that would result in removing the identity of the little horn away from the papacy. 
  

 

 

[Charlie744]

There are some folks who might be interested in receiving my commentary on Daniel but are reluctant to reveal their personal contact information… and that is their right and level of comfort regardless of the reason behind it.

However, if interested, there are two ways to receive this book:

1) Go directly to Amazon and purchase it for yourself (but it is expensive):

 New Interpretations Book of Daniel 

or, should you not want to provide your personal mailing information, you may-

Provide a mailing address to your church (attention to you), or a PO. Box, or another address you are comfortable having it sent to..

There is no cost to you unless you decide to purchase it through Amazon on your own. It is an easy / non- academic read that is presented in 12 chapters and is 466 pages long. 
 

You will / should not have any trouble finding the basis for these new interpretations- doesn’t mean you have to agree with them but ALMOST EVERY OTHER COMMENTARY ON DANIEL is a rehashing of their predecessors.