The “anti-Christ”

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, douggg said:

The messiah did arrive at the time of the fourth kingdom.   But is not when all the important events found in Daniel take place.

Well, I really did not expect you to make such a comment! What could possibly be more important than the cross, His resurrection, the start of His church, the sending of His Holy Spirit? 
 

Please DO NOT answer that rhetoric question…. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

 

Why don't you read Daniel 8:25 about the little horn's demise.  

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The Prince of princes is obviously referring to Jesus.    Do you think the pope/papacy fits the little horn in that verse ?

Still can’t get you to answer 2:41.  But I understand. 
 

Verse 8:25 speaks of the little  horn ( papacy) who will speak against God claim to be god on earth, attack His people, His saints, he will throw truth to the ground, he will disobey God’s commandments, and think to change His laws. He will claim that salvation must go through the Catholic Church - no longer by faith in the cross (Jesus), on and on and on. These things just mentioned represent his attacks on earth against this “Prince of princes” - Jesus!

And he (little horn / papacy) will be exceedingly great and will continue until the end of time when he will be broken without human hands (God at His second coming). 
 

 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

The Messiah in Daniel 2 is referring to the time of His Second Coming, not his First Coming.

The Roman Empire, the legs of Iron, were at the time of Jesus's First Coming.   Do you deny that ?

The Roman Empire in the state of being iron mixed with clay are at the time of Jesus's Second Coming.

Not even close! Again, you throw everything into the future. 

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

I have given my interpretations, but those disagree with your interpretations so that you can support your view that the little horn person is the pope/papacy.

You have not provided any interpretations, only general / unsupported broad statements where everything is thrown som 2000 years after the Messiah arrived. 
 

Doug, thank you for the posts. I have to respectfully leave you with your theories on Daniel. 
 

Best wishes always, Charlie 

[douggg]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

And he (little horn / papacy) will be exceedingly great and will continue until the end of time when he will be broken without human hands (God at His second coming). 

The pope ?  The pope is going to stand up to make war on Jesus ?   And gather the armies of the world to assemble at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus from executing judgment on them ?    The pope ?    The frail old guy, who preaches the Father, Son, Holy Ghost ?

[douggg]

10 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Not even close! Again, you throw everything into the future. 

Do you deny that at the time of Jesus's First Coming the Roman Empire was at the strength of the legs of Iron, not in a weakened state ?

Edited December 4, 2023 by douggg

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

the book of Daniel was given first to the Jews to reveal and disclose the unbelievable events surrounding His first coming

Firstly, the history of how the OT was communicated, recorded, and preserved in perilous times to be in the possession of the priests during the Incarnation of Christ is required reading for the serious student of the Bible. 

Secondly, attention to the history of empires that oppressed Israel is required in order to join the dots and gain a picture of the fulfillment of prophecy.

eg. Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus, the four generals that Alexander left the empire of Greece to are the four heads of the third beast.

Cassander took Greece and Macedonia; Lysimachus took Thrace, Bithynia, Pergamum and much of Asia Minor; Ptolemy took Egypt, Lybia, and Palestine; while Seleucus took over Asia Minor, Syria, and Persia which included Babylon.

(Dan 7:6)  "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

[Charlie744]

28 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Firstly, the history of how the OT was communicated, recorded, and preserved in perilous times to be in the possession of the priests during the Incarnation of Christ is required reading for the serious student of the Bible. 

Secondly, attention to the history of empires that oppressed Israel is required in order to join the dots and gain a picture of the fulfillment of prophecy.

eg. Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus, the four generals that Alexander left the empire of Greece to are the four heads of the third beast.

Cassander took Greece and Macedonia; Lysimachus took Thrace, Bithynia, Pergamum and much of Asia Minor; Ptolemy took Egypt, Lybia, and Palestine; while Seleucus took over Asia Minor, Syria, and Persia which included Babylon.

(Dan 7:6)  "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

The book of Daniel is not a history book. The accuracy or veracity of Daniel does not have to match or agree with our flawed history books. 
God has provided everything we would need in Daniel and a few other OT books that allow us to interpret Faniel. 
 

Scrpture interprets Scripture. By sourcing extra-biblical records we are bringing in the common to the holy. 
 

God will include and exclude whatever actors or events He find necessary to reveal His plan of salvation. 
 

if you feel the need to source records outside of Daniel and the other OT books, that is your right. 
 

I am sure you will agree the Jews reading, studying and attempting to interpret ANY VERSE in the OT would not look to anything outside the Tanakh. 
 

If His Words are inerrant and come from the mind of God, and they are, they would only be corrupted by our very flawed and incomplete history records.

But that is just my opinion. You are welcome to yours. 

[Michael37]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The book of Daniel is not a history book. The accuracy or veracity of Daniel does not have to match or agree with our flawed history books. 
God has provided everything we would need in Daniel and a few other OT books that allow us to interpret Faniel. 
 

Scrpture interprets Scripture. By sourcing extra-biblical records we are bringing in the common to the holy. 
 

God will include and exclude whatever actors or events He find necessary to reveal His plan of salvation. 
 

if you feel the need to source records outside of Daniel and the other OT books, that is your right. 
 

I am sure you will agree the Jews reading, studying and attempting to interpret ANY VERSE in the OT would not look to anything outside the Tanakh. 
 

If His Words are inerrant and come from the mind of God, and they are, they would only be corrupted by our very flawed and incomplete history records.

But that is just my opinion. You are welcome to yours. 

Yikes. One of the criteria for canonicity is historical accuracy.

[Charlie744]

56 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yikes. One of the criteria for canonicity is historical accuracy.

So you’re saying that we get to determine the quality, veracity and accuracy of God’s Word?

I hope God made sure He agreed with our history books. I hope He didn’t forget to include an important event or actor like Epiphanies or the Ptolemy’s- they certainly played a major part in His plan of salvation. 
 

That is some comment. 

 

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am sure you will agree the Jews reading, studying and attempting to interpret ANY VERSE in the OT would not look to anything outside the Tanakh. 

The Jews relied on their so called sages to understand the Tanach.   Later those opinions were compiled along with what Jews call the oral law into what is called the Talmud.

And if you go to an online English translation of the Tanach at the Chabad.org site, you will find that the text has Rashi's comments available for viewing of each verse.

Edited December 4, 2023 by douggg