The “anti-Christ”

[Shilohsfoal]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

Crusades, Inquisitions... on and on.

I can't find where the Pope killed Jews though.Where is your source?

I'm wanting to read about the Pope killing Daniels people because according to the book of Daniel,this is about his people.It doesn't say this is about Romans.

Daniel 11 goes into great detail concerning the persecution of the saints by the little horn. According to the prophecy,the persecution lasts till the time of the end.

 

Daniel 11:33-35

“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

 

Do you believe the Pope is still killing Daniels people and will continue to kill Daniels people till the time of the end or do you believe the time of the end has already passed and the persecution has stopped?

[Michael37]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

And after God spends a ton of His prophetic capital disclosing the "little horn", when he will arrive, what he will do, how he will go against everything that is of God does this NOT apply to the little horn of the 4th beast kingdom? He told us when he would arrive - he came out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and WOULD CONTINUE UNTIL HIS SECOND COMING. He does arrive at His second coming. He has been here for 1500 years doing exactly what God prophesied.

What does the Scripture say?

What does the Scripture mean?

How does the Scripture apply?

Many misapply the OT imagery in Daniel and the result is a mangled NT eschatology that confuses the spiritual entities behind blasphemous empires with the personal identity of the ultimate blasphemous emperor known variously as the man of sin, the son of perdition, the Antichrist, the beast from the earth, and the false prophet that gets cast into the Lake of Fire. 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

You can catch some comparison between how these are worded too

1 John 4:3 And **every spirit** that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and 
**this is that** spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard **that it** should come;

and **even now** already is it in the world.

It (that spirit)  is already in the world,  that spirit of antichrist

As opposed to the Spirit of truth that is in the church?

Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Since he says, 

and **even now** already is it in the world.

It looks like one spirit (singular) in a them (plural) in various places, for example

2 Thes 2:9-10 **Even him**, whose coming is after **the working of** Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness **in them** that perish; because **they** received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thes 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall **send them** strong delusion, that they should believe **a lie**: That **they all** might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The LORD sending a singular spirit into the mouths of these prophets (plural) which is a lying spirit

1 Kings 22:20-23 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit (singular), and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets (plural). And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in 
the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Same sort of thing as sending the Spirit of truth (who is not a lie) but that one Spirit is in many (the body of Christ) also

One is after the working of Satan (a lie, bring the father of lies) and the other is after the effectual working of the power of God (and of the Spirit of truth)

The greater is that "he" that is in you than the he that is"in" the world, even as that spirit of antichrist is shown as already "in the world".

Just as we (many) profess Jesus is the Christ who has come in the flesh by the Spirit of truth, antichrist spirit or deceiver/lie/ liar 
denies Christ is come in the flesh through them (who are many). Between them is working one Spirit 

Or like two Spirits working, the one works in the body of Christ (many) and the other spirit in the world (many)

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I can't find where the Pope killed Jews though.Where is your source?

I'm wanting to read about the Pope killing Daniels people because according to the book of Daniel,this is about his people.It doesn't say this is about Romans.

Daniel 11 goes into great detail concerning the persecution of the saints by the little horn. According to the prophecy,the persecution lasts till the time of the end.

 

Daniel 11:33-35

“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

 

Do you believe the Pope is still killing Daniels people and will continue to kill Daniels people till the time of the end or do you believe the time of the end has already passed and the persecution has stopped?

The book of Daniel and its Messianic prophecies were specifically written to the Jews and their Holy city. Why - because it speaks to the coming Messiah - their coming Messiah. 

As a direct result of their rejection of their Messiah, they would be killed (70AD) and dispersed among the Gentiles for the next 2000 years.

However, the Jewish/Christian church started after the cross was initially composed on ALL Jews. They were commission by God to spread the Good News to all parts of the world - and that meant through the vast pagan Roman empire. Then, there were millions of Gentiles that accepted these teachings and the Messiah Jesus. The early church faced extreme persecution at the hands of pagan Rome prior to Constantine. The Jewish/Christian church would grow exponently despite all this persecution and then Constantine would declare Christianity an "allowable" religion and Romans were precluded from persecuting this church. After pagan Rome was destroyed this church took on a very different appearance and positions. Pagan Rome was going downward and papal Rome (or at that time, the bishops within this church) were gaining tremendous power and prestige.

Then, this Jewish/Christian church would be completely dominated by the Gentiles and the Jews would be effectively removed from having any participation within this now Gentile/Christian church. The Jews would not either be  forced out or voluntarily leave because of all the pagan practices that the Gentiles would introduce into the original Jewish/Christian church.

In the late 400's, pagan Rome would be gone to be replaced by papal Rome. Those powerful bishops of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Rome and Antioch would fight for power and control over this new powerful Gentile/Christian church with Rome being the winner. This would be the beginning of the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome and he will continue until the end.

Thje Jews were already destroyed and scattered by 70 AD. Papal Rome would murder all and any that did not bow to their leadership - they would murder, torture other Christians by the millions if they did not convernt to Catholicism. They destroyed  / murdered anyone that would disagree with their doctrines and practices.

This is the little horn of Daniel 7,8,9 and 11. He will not come at the end of time, he has been doing his "anti-Christ" like work since the 500 AD. This is the one who claims divinity that only belongs to God. 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

What does the Scripture say?

What does the Scripture mean?

How does the Scripture apply?

Many misapply the OT imagery in Daniel and the result is a mangled NT eschatology that confuses the spiritual entities behind blasphemous empires with the personal identity of the ultimate blasphemous emperor known variously as the man of sin, the son of perdition, the Antichrist, the beast from the earth, and the false prophet that gets cast into the Lake of Fire. 

I certainly agree with you. But from my point of view, I have been quite clear what I believe the Scriptures are telling us. This boogeyman coming at the end of time is certainly not Scriptural. That entire 7 year tribulation theory was generated by none other than this same little horn in the 16th century. Daniel is the most misinterpreted (intentionally and otherwise) book in the bible. And the most important prophetic verses within that book occur in chapter 9 - and this is exactly where the little horn would attack God and His prophetic words. (9:24-27).

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

You can catch some comparison between how these are worded too

1 John 4:3 And **every spirit** that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and 
**this is that** spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard **that it** should come;

and **even now** already is it in the world.

It (that spirit)  is already in the world,  that spirit of antichrist

As opposed to the Spirit of truth that is in the church?

Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Since he says, 

and **even now** already is it in the world.

It looks like one spirit (singular) in a them (plural) in various places, for example

2 Thes 2:9-10 **Even him**, whose coming is after **the working of** Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness **in them** that perish; because **they** received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thes 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall **send them** strong delusion, that they should believe **a lie**: That **they all** might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The LORD sending a singular spirit into the mouths of these prophets (plural) which is a lying spirit

1 Kings 22:20-23 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit (singular), and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets (plural). And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in 
the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Same sort of thing as sending the Spirit of truth (who is not a lie) but that one Spirit is in many (the body of Christ) also

One is after the working of Satan (a lie, bring the father of lies) and the other is after the effectual working of the power of God (and of the Spirit of truth)

The greater is that "he" that is in you than the he that is"in" the world, even as that spirit of antichrist is shown as already "in the world".

Just as we (many) profess Jesus is the Christ who has come in the flesh by the Spirit of truth, antichrist spirit or deceiver/lie/ liar 
denies Christ is come in the flesh through them (who are many). Between them is working one Spirit 

Or like two Spirits working, the one works in the body of Christ (many) and the other spirit in the world (many)

Where were you when I was studying and writing my commentary on the book of Daniel? Thanks for the comments. I hope others listen to your thoughts.

[Shilohsfoal]

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The book of Daniel and its Messianic prophecies were specifically written to the Jews and their Holy city. Why - because it speaks to the coming Messiah - their coming Messiah. 

As a direct result of their rejection of their Messiah, they would be killed (70AD) and dispersed among the Gentiles for the next 2000 years.

However, the Jewish/Christian church started after the cross was initially composed on ALL Jews. They were commission by God to spread the Good News to all parts of the world - and that meant through the vast pagan Roman empire. Then, there were millions of Gentiles that accepted these teachings and the Messiah Jesus. The early church faced extreme persecution at the hands of pagan Rome prior to Constantine. The Jewish/Christian church would grow exponently despite all this persecution and then Constantine would declare Christianity an "allowable" religion and Romans were precluded from persecuting this church. After pagan Rome was destroyed this church took on a very different appearance and positions. Pagan Rome was going downward and papal Rome (or at that time, the bishops within this church) were gaining tremendous power and prestige.

Then, this Jewish/Christian church would be completely dominated by the Gentiles and the Jews would be effectively removed from having any participation within this now Gentile/Christian church. The Jews would not either be  forced out or voluntarily leave because of all the pagan practices that the Gentiles would introduce into the original Jewish/Christian church.

In the late 400's, pagan Rome would be gone to be replaced by papal Rome. Those powerful bishops of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Rome and Antioch would fight for power and control over this new powerful Gentile/Christian church with Rome being the winner. This would be the beginning of the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome and he will continue until the end.

Thje Jews were already destroyed and scattered by 70 AD. Papal Rome would murder all and any that did not bow to their leadership - they would murder, torture other Christians by the millions if they did not convernt to Catholicism. They destroyed  / murdered anyone that would disagree with their doctrines and practices.

This is the little horn of Daniel 7,8,9 and 11. He will not come at the end of time, he has been doing his "anti-Christ" like work since the 500 AD. This is the one who claims divinity that only belongs to God. 

 

 

 

So your answer is the Pope started imprisoning the Jewish saints and killing them in 400 ad and is still putting Jews in prison and killing them today?

Do you have any proof the Pope is currently fulfilling these verses concerning the persecuted  saints in Israel,?

Daniel 11:33-35

“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So your answer is the Pope started imprisoning the Jewish saints and killing them in 400 ad and is still putting Jews in prison and killing them today?

Do you have any proof the Pope is currently fulfilling these verses concerning the persecuted  saints in Israel,?

Daniel 11:33-35

“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

I was quite specific when I mentioned (maybe twice) that the Jews had already been destroyed by 70 AD - approximately 400 years BEFORE the little horn would come to full power. 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Where were you when I was studying and writing my commentary on the book of Daniel? Thanks for the comments. I hope others listen to your thoughts.

To be quite truthful I am undecided on a lot in the book of Daniel and Revelation, I only compare things until something clicks in for me here or there gathering pieces I might be able to later put together  but I don't have a particular stand on either yet.

Edited November 13, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Charlie744]

Just now, AFlameOfFire said:

To be quite truthful I am undecided on a lot in the book of Daniel and Revelation, I only compare things until something clicks in for me here or there gathering pieces I might be able to later put together  but I don't have a particular stand either yet.

The book of Daniel is the most complicated and difficult book in the OT. I just spent 5 long years trying to unpack it to prepare a commentary on it. It has more layers than the earth... it will never be truly understand until we are with God. But that does not mean we should stop trying. The most frustrating and difficult times were rewarded much greater when He would allow me to see something in His words...

Revelation is also another difficult book. I have NO knowledge of it but since I completed Daniel, I hope God will allow me to try and use those new interpreations and bring them forward to unpacking Revelation. 

This is why this forum is so valuable. Someone offers their thoughts and opinions and then something clicks. You may have read a certain verse 100 times, but it did not catch your attention. Then, someone in this forum writes their thoughts a certain way and WAM - there it is... And that is exactly how God has planned this.... but some folks do not seem to be able to dialogue but criticize should their opinion differ and then the entire experience is gone.