douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Where does it tell you the little horn is an end time event? In 17, Gabriel tells Daniel the “chazon” vision refers to the time of the end. The “chazon” vision is a long term vision that is being revealed to Daniel. Charlie, just so other readers know - chazon is the Hebrew word for vision. You should have written "chazon" i.e. vision to have made it clear. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. 2 hours ago, Charlie744 said: It begins in 457BC and ends at His second coming. No, because from 457BC to Jesus's Second Coming is more than 2300 days. The 2300 days is not talking about the overall vision Daniel had in Daniel 8, but the specific part involving the little horn's activities - to stop the daily sacrifice, commit the transgression of desolation, that the sanctuary and host (the Jews) be trodden under foot (Daniel 8:13) 2 hours ago, Charlie744 said: The 2300 evening and morning time element refers specifically to the daily sacrifices in the sacrificial services. They would represent the taking away of the sin of the Jews. The animals would be sacrificed instead of the Jews. Therefore, they were a type and shadow of the sacrifice of the coming Messiah. The 2300 days are found within the last week. Charlie, the 2300 days involve the little horn's activities - to stop the daily sacrifice, commit the transgression of desolation, that the sanctuary and host (the Jews) be trodden under foot (Daniel 8:13). That vision is time of the end, not Jesus's first coming. 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. When Jesus returns, the temple will be cleansed by removal of the beast-king, the false prophet, and the abomination of desolation image incarnated by Satan. Are you able to see this chart of mine? Edited December 3, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: I don’t know how you can say things like this … Pagan Rome clearly is the 4th kingdom and was in power when all of the events (His first coming, His crucifixion, beginning of His church, the demise of pagan Rome, the coming of power of the little horn). Charlie, I can say it because I have over 50 years of hearing that particular interpretation view you are repeating coming from others. The word the term "Pagan Rome" is an invented term by them who advocate the pope/papacy is the little horn/Antichrist person. 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: No. The little horn came out FROM the 4th kingdom. He came out of the 4th kingdom right behind the 10 horns. The little horn person is time of the end, as are the ten horns kings. The fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, in the end times has manifest itself as the EU. 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: The 4th kingdom was pagan Rome. Since he came out of pagan Rome BEFORE its demise around the late 5th century AD, there can only be one that meets this criteria. He had small beginnings coming out of pagan Rome and would rise to the top of the 4th kingdom beast (come to full power) after pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed. And he (little horn) would become exceedingly great. "pagan Rome" is not a term in Daniel. It is a term invented by them who believe the little horn/Antichrist person is the pope/papacy. When you start talking about the demise of the Roman Empire in the 5th century - you are relying on history books, either directly or indirectly - something that you claim not to be doing in your interpretation. -------------------------------------------------- Who told you - you should unpack Daniel before unpacking Revelation ? I am not asking for the person's specific name. But what position was in he in that you listened to him? That person gave you some bad advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 861 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2023 19 minutes ago, douggg said: Charlie, I can say it because I have over 50 years of hearing that particular interpretation view you are repeating coming from others. The word the term "Pagan Rome" is an invented term by them who advocate the pope/papacy is the little horn/Antichrist person. The little horn person is time of the end, as are the ten horns kings. The fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, in the end times has manifest itself as the EU. "pagan Rome" is not a term in Daniel. It is a term invented by them who believe the little horn/Antichrist person is the pope/papacy. When you start talking about the demise of the Roman Empire in the 5th century - you are relying on history books, either directly or indirectly - something that you claim not to be doing in your interpretation. -------------------------------------------------- Who told you - you should unpack Daniel before unpacking Revelation ? I am not asking for the person's specific name. But what position was in he in that you listened to him? That person gave you some bad advice. Doug, I believe we should end this discussion on the little horn, pagan Rome, etc. Last comment- the book of Daniel was written for the Jews - a prophetic book about their coming Messiah. Do you think they had to wait for the book of Revelation to be written in order to understand Daniel? Are you Roman Catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Are you Roman Catholic? No. I am non-denominational. 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Last comment- the book of Daniel was written for the Jews - a prophetic book about their coming Messiah. Do you think they had to wait for the book of Revelation to be written in order to understand Daniel? Parts of Daniel could be understood in historic times as events took place. Time of the end events though in Daniel could not be understood until Jesus called John up to heaven to write down those things he was presented and delivered to the church. 2Timothy3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Edited December 3, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) The 2300 days of Daniel 8 regarding the little horn's time of the end activities. And the 1290 days, the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12. Are shown on this comprehensive chart of mine of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 which will contain all of the end time events shown on the chart. Just follow the red line from the upper left to the lower right. Edited December 3, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 861 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2023 30 minutes ago, douggg said: The 2300 days of Daniel 8 regarding the little horn's time of the end activities. And the 1290 days, the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12. Are shown on this comprehensive chart of mine of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 which will contain all of the end time events shown on the chart. Just follow the red line from the upper left to the lower right. It is clear that you have put much time and effort in developing your interpretations. If this is your work then you definitely should be applauded. I know just how difficult the book of Daniel can be… and it would be very difficult for me to put such effort into something and then be told my interpretations are incorrect. Having said that I would like to ask you if you would like to take one step at a time to discuss Daniel and see where and when our interpretations depart. This is the same offer I recently made to Revelation Man. Both of you believe Daniel is primarily speaking of the end times and I believe most of Daniel is fulfilled. If you agree, I believe a good starting point is in chapter 2. What is your 4th kingdom in the metal man image? For me it is Rome, and specifically pagan Rome (and the reason I label this as pagan Rome is because the 4th kingdom will be divided and pagan Rome was “in play” at the time of the Messiah. So, please tell me your 4th kingdom… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Both of you believe Daniel is primarily speaking of the end times and I believe most of Daniel is fulfilled. No, I believe that some parts of Daniel are immediate. Other parts are historic (to us) following Daniel's time. And other parts, the time of the end parts, are end times. immediate - Daniel 4, prophecy to Nebuchadnezzar and his being humbled. immediate - Daniel 5, prophecy to Belshazzar, writing on the wall, his being slain, and Darius the Mede taking over, ending the Babylonian kingdom. immediate - Daniel 6, Daniel in the lions den, during Darius's reign ---------------------------------------------- historic and end times - Daniel 7 historic and end times - Daniel 8 historic and end times - Daniel 9 ---------------------------------------------- immediate - Daniel 10, the angel speaking would be the one who speaks to Daniel in Daniel 11 of things to come - all the way to the end times. And continues in Daniel 12, which is all end times. That angel told Daniel in Daniel 10:14 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. That's far into the future, Charlie, many days, the latter days, the endtimes. That same angel begins Daniel 11:1 by saying he strengthen (aided) Darius the Mede in the take over replacement of the Babylonian empire. Then the angel starts working forward about the kings of Persia, then Greece, then the break-up kingdoms, all the way to Antiochus IV. Then the angel begins in verse 36 his narration of what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. Which that narration continues in Daniel 12 about end times events which the Jews will experience. 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: If you agree, I believe a good starting point is in chapter 2. What is your 4th kingdom in the metal man image? For me it is Rome, and specifically pagan Rome (and the reason I label this as pagan Rome is because the 4th kingdom will be divided and pagan Rome was “in play” at the time of the Messiah. So, please tell me your 4th kingdom… Daniel 2, the legs of iron are the Roman Empire. The feet of the iron and clay are the Roman Empire of strong (iron) and weak (clay) parts. The ten toes are end time's kings (leaders). Edited December 3, 2023 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 861 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2023 14 minutes ago, douggg said: No, I believe that some parts of Daniel are immediate. Other parts are historic (to us) following Daniel's time. And other parts, the time of the end parts, are end times. immediate - Daniel 4, prophecy to Nebuchadnezzar and his being humbled. immediate - Daniel 5, prophecy to Belshazzar, writing on the wall, his being slain, and Darius the Mede taking over, ending the Babylonian kingdom. immediate - Daniel 6, Daniel in the lions den, during Darius's reign ---------------------------------------------- historic and end times - Daniel 7 historic and end times - Daniel 8 historic and end times - Daniel 9 ---------------------------------------------- immediate - Daniel 10, the angel speaking would be the one who speaks to Daniel in Daniel 11 of things to come - all the way to the end times. And continues in Daniel 12, which is all end times. That angel told Daniel in Daniel 10:14 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. That's far into the future, Charlie, many days, the latter days, the endtimes. That same angel begins Daniel 11:1 by saying he strengthen (aided) Darius the Mede in the take over replacement of the Babylonian empire. Then the angel starts working forward about the kings of Persia, then Greece, then the break-up kingdoms, all the way to Antiochus IV. Then the angel begins in verse 36 his narration of what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. Which that narration continues in Daniel 12 about end times events which the Jews will experience. Daniel 2, the legs of iron are the Roman Empire. The feet of the iron and clay are the Roman Empire of strong (iron) and weak (clay) parts. The ten toes are end time's kings (leaders). Ok! So we both agree that Rome is the 4th kingdom. This began in approximately 63BC and ended around 480 AD. Now, before we move out of chapter 2, can you tell me what takes place or your interpretation for verses 41 to 43? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2023 8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: Now, before we move out of chapter 2, can you tell me what takes place or your interpretation for verses 41 to 43? A history of rival political alliances reinforced by marriages between ruling families in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted December 3, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 861 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2023 21 minutes ago, douggg said: A history of rival political alliances reinforced by marriages between ruling families in Europe. How do you get that from these verses? Perhaps you might be able to explain verse 41 only… we will have to take this slowly and understand the players (actors), where they came from, what these verses are telling us. And certainly, what tells you that verse 41 is an end time verse rather than an prophecy at the time of the Messiah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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