The “anti-Christ”

[douggg]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Also, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the truly new interpretations that I offered in my recent commentary on the book of Daniel (Nov. 9), will not be accepted by all or many or any, etc., but they really tie into the coming Messiah and explained fairly well ---- they are not end time events.

Charlie, you interpretations sound very much like SDA and reformers interpretations to me.

Pagan Rome and Papal Rome that you use are terms you did not create on you own.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, I agree that the time/times/half time is not exactly 1260 days.    Also the term 3 1/2 years, 3.5 years, is not in the bible stated as such.

The 1260 days, the 42 months, the time/times/half time are not exact equivalents to each other.

We can, however, apply them to being in either the first half or second half of the seven years.

 

Based on what theory? What tells you where they belong in time, how to interpret the specific time element - are they days, years, months, etc., and who do each one of them apply to? Until you can answer these questions to each time element, the interpretation can not be determined. Each one of the 5 time elements speak to their own prophecy and none other.

[douggg]

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

3) 2300 evenings and mornings in chapter 8 --- speak to the time of the Messiah,

4) 1290 days - speaks to the time of the Messiah - His first coming,

5) 1335 days - speaks to the time of the Messiah - His secon coming.

Charlie, the 2300 days in Daniel 8 are said in the text to be time of the end.  

The 1290 days and 1335 days - are both time of the end, which Daniel 12 is based.

[douggg]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Based on what theory? What tells you where they belong in time, how to interpret the specific time element - are they days, years, months, etc., and who do each one of them apply to? Until you can answer these questions to each time element, the interpretation can not be determined. Each one of the 5 time elements speak to their own prophecy and none other.

Charlie, 50 years of study, as God revealed to me the understanding.

The text itself says either days, months, years.

If you have not worked on a timeline - then how can you say the 5 time elements are independent, and the events thereof operate in a vacuum ?    Plus, you have yet to study Revelation.

1260 days, 42 months, a time/times/half time, 3 1/2 days, 2300 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 7 years.     That's 8, not 5, btw.

 

 

 

[douggg]

20 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Based on what theory? What tells you where they belong in time, how to interpret the specific time element - are they days, years, months, etc., and who do each one of them apply to?

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I realize this response is not directed at me, but I want to ask you a question. As you will see, I am not being smart or making any insults to anyone.

Let us use this verse as our baseline, as you have studied:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

In addition to the obvious we see with technology, I think this verse has a more profound and different meaning. As the world waxes worse and everything is going to Hell in a handbasket, people are getting gripped with fear. Many will start to flip through prophetic scripture, trying to figure out what is happening, and their prophetic and biblical knowledge will increase. Why would the Lord inform us that artificial intelligence, smartphones, traffic jams, computers, airlines, and space travel are coming? Only those at the appointed time can discern the end times.

The question: What gives you the advantage of interpreting unfulfilled prophetic scripture, compared to scholars and theologians such as C.I. Schofield, G.H. Pember, and Clarence Larkin, in that era and before that?

We can divide the two theological differing camps into pre-1970 and those of modern scholarship of today. Those pre-1970 theologians could not have imagined or envisioned how or why all these alignments could come about in the books of Daniel and Revelation.

In the 1970s, Israel was friends with Iran and took vacations to Turkey, with no hostilities with Russia. I came close to taking a job working for Bell-Textron in Iran in 1978. We know what happened in 1979. They could not have imagined Russia and Iran’s occupation of Syria or Iran’s nuclear threat to Israel and the world.

Looking at Ezekiel 38-39, look at where we are today. You, I, and the world are witnessing the reasons why Damascus, Syria, will become a ruinous heap overnight, Elam (S.W. Iran-Bushehr Facilities) will be destroyed, and why. Only this generation has the prophetic foresight to see everything aligning (prophetic convergence); the scholars of yesteryear could not.

The generation closest to the fulfillment of prophetic scripture should understand it the best. Prophecy is best discerned after fulfillment, i.e., Israel being reborn as a nation in one day, May 14, 1948. Could you have written and interpreted what you recently wrote the same way fifty years ago or even ten?

True, even modern scholarship of today has different camps of interpretation and disagree on various ways, timing, and who. But most seem to agree that no matter whose theology turns out to be correct, the time of fulfillment is close at hand.

Wonderful response and thank you. There are 3 separate mentions in the book of Daniel where these terms or phrases "shut up or seal up" the visions or prophecies is recorded. (However, in chapter 9 this clearly means it is the coming of Jesus that will fulfill the visions and the prophecies).Just as each time element in Daniel speaks to its own prophecy within it's own chapter, these terms also speak independently of the other.

It may be more complicated that what might be seen on the face of the paper:

In chapter 8, does the "sealing up or shutting up" refer to the Chazon vision or the Mareh vision - two very different visions. 

Is the "sealing up" supposed to mean to keep secret, it must or will not be understood until the end of time?

Does the "sealing up" mean that God wants Daniel to write it down, commit it to the eventual book of Daniel but do not disclose it while the Jews are still in Babylon? 

Is it a coincidence the "sealing up" terms are only found in the Hebrew chapters? Won't they become part of the final book of Daniel within the Tanakh, and would be read, studied as any other book in the Tanakh well before the coming of Christ?

Didn't Christ Himself ask the Jews / Pharisees, " have you not read in the book of Daniel...."

During the 5 years trying to interpret Daniel, I noticed the 2 verses being recorded in 2 separate chapters. I thought that was strange - how many times does this have to be repeated... however, it is being repeated each time because the underlying text speaks to a different prophecy or issue. 

In chapter 8 this term is used because these prophecies are NOT meant for the Gentiles... seal them up until the Jews are back in Jerusalem. They are meant for "his people and his city."

There are also a few times Gabriel undemention that he came to reveal or give Daniel understanding of the visions or prophecies. Thus, the "sealing up" may have been meant as a "temporary" period where Gabriel would return to reveal the meaning of the prophecy. Also, was Gabriel speaking of the Mareh vision or the Chazon vision when he mentioned the reason he returned.. It is a complicated undertaking to break Daniel down.

Regarding your comment on what gives me the "advantage" of truly great scholars or academics? Absolutely nothing! I could not match any of them in intellectual ability, knowledge of the Scriptures, etc. Not even on the same planet.

But because I never read Daniel before and certainly not studied any other book of the Scriptures, I had no understanding / bias / etc., of what Daniel should be telling us. The ONLY thing I knew about Daniel was the typical 4 children stories about the lion's den the  furnace scene, the large metal man, and Nebuchadnezzar turning into an animal...that was it!!!!!!

But the advantage would be that I had access to all of the interpretations on both sides of the two major camps these scholars and academics contributed - these were and still are today's accepted interpretations. All I had to do was try and understand what they have interpreted these verses to say. And at the beginning, I had no idea these very talented individuals would have different interpretations - that made no sense to me - they had access to the same verses, same commentaries from their predecessors - they may have minor differences on some issues but I expected they would all see the same message.

When I saw and learned the very different intepretations on most of the major issues (prophectic verses) thoughout the 12 chapters, I realized that someone had to be incorrect. And there was NO shortage of errors on either camp.

The only reason I believe in my new interpretations is because ALL OTHERS - ALL SCHOLARS, ACADEMICS, THEOLOGIANS, etc., try to interpret Daniel using the "historical" approach - how well can they math the actors and events in Daniel to OUR HISTORY BOOKS. That is the major flaw. God is not writing a history book and He will include those actors and events within these verses that are necessary to get His plan of salvation across to the readers - first the Jew and then the Gentile. 

Chapter 11 is a perfect example of this erroneous approach. Everyone continues into chapter 11 assuming the veses speak to the next 4 generals coming after Alexander. In our history books that is exactly what took place. But this is God's plan of salvation and they do NOT represent one of the 4 kingdoms He established in chapter 2. Chapter 11 is about the coming Messiah and the actors and events between the Cross and the  coming little horn where he will continue until the end. Almost 90 % of chapter 11 covers these events - Verses 40 -45 speak in a big picture way of the true end time events.

It literally took me 7 months just to find the key to chapter 11 - just this one key. No matter how many times I read all the interpretations for chapter 11, they did not make any sense to me at all... The book of Daniel and certainly chapter 11 is about the Messiah... if He is not spoken of in the last 2 chaptrs then when is He discussed... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

49 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, you interpretations sound very much like SDA and reformers interpretations to me.

Pagan Rome and Papal Rome that you use are terms you did not create on you own.

You have already mentioned that once and my response is that I do not know if their interpretations are like mine.... I have read some of them but they fall apart after chapter 8. 

[Charlie744]

44 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, the 2300 days in Daniel 8 are said in the text to be time of the end.  

The 1290 days and 1335 days - are both time of the end, which Daniel 12 is based.

Okay, now prove it. Show me or tell me how, why and what they speak of?

[Charlie744]

31 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, 50 years of study, as God revealed to me the understanding.

The text itself says either days, months, years.

If you have not worked on a timeline - then how can you say the 5 time elements are independent, and the events thereof operate in a vacuum ?    Plus, you have yet to study Revelation.

1260 days, 42 months, a time/times/half time, 3 1/2 days, 2300 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 7 years.     That's 8, not 5, btw.

 

 

 

As I said, show me how you arrived at your conclusion these are end time events. What do these time elements speak to? Be specific please. Take one at a time if you want.

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, douggg said:

First, I tried to click and open the link a few times - unsuccessful. But let's skip someone's elses work if they refer to another's interpretation. Please tell me what you believe these two time elements speak to and why...