KOS - King of the South

[Charlie744]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rome is never mentioned in Daniel. There is no unequivocal identity of the 4th kingdom and it's iteration in the feet and toes of the Precious Metal Statue. And the fact is Rome never directly succeeded Greece, the Diadochi did. It's well established historical fact Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucid were kings of their respective realms, those realms existed, and they came after Alexander. 

At the time of Alexander's downfall, Rome was all thatched roofs and mud walls fighting for their life in Italy. 

The four horns that arose from the great horn of the he goat isn't Rome, it's the Diadochi.

Daniel 11:29-31 is AE IV, a grandson of Seleucus I Nicator. Our example of one who commits the A of D is a Syrian king descended from the guy who ruled Mesopotamia from Babylon. I see Rome nowhere in the end time scenario. 

You are right… Rome is not specifically named. In chapter 2, the 4 kingdoms are revealed and they he 4th kingdom is identified by its legs of iron. 
 
In chapter 7, the 4 heads on the 3rd kingdom represent the 4 generals that come after the death of Alexander. They are always found within the 3rd kingdom. They came out of “that” nation (Greec).

They were thrown out “towards” the 4 winds… meaning, they were thrown out into the turmoil, conflicts and confusion after the death of Alexander. 
 

They are not one of the 4 beast kingdoms, they did not come out of the sea or the earth. They simply represent the end of the 3rd kingdom. 
 

The 4th kingdom will continue until the end of time… and papal Rome and the little horn has indeed continued to this day. 
 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

You are right… Rome is not specifically named. In chapter 2, the 4 kingdoms are revealed and they he 4th kingdom is identified by its legs of iron. 
 
In chapter 7, the 4 heads on the 3rd kingdom represent the 4 generals that come after the death of Alexander. They are always found within the 3rd kingdom. They came out of “that” nation (Greec).

They were thrown out “towards” the 4 winds… meaning, they were thrown out into the turmoil, conflicts and confusion after the death of Alexander. 

I think the context here is the division of Alexander's kingdom. Historically, we are without doubt Alexander's realm was divided between the four prominent generals. 

Thus the goat[Alexander]became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn[authority]was broken off, and four prominent horns[Diadochi]came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds[cardinal directions] of heaven.

9From one of these horns[Diadochi]a little horn[the fourth beast, iron kingdom, beast of Revelation] emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

They are not one of the 4 beast kingdoms, they did not come out of the sea or the earth. They simply represent the end of the 3rd kingdom. 

That has not ended. All four divisions exist today.

17 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The 4th kingdom will continue until the end of time… and papal Rome and the little horn has indeed continued to this day. 
 

To this point Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Iraq still exist.

[Charlie744]

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I think the context here is the division of Alexander's kingdom. Historically, we are without doubt Alexander's realm was divided between the four prominent generals. 

Thus the goat[Alexander]became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn[authority]was broken off, and four prominent horns[Diadochi]came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds[cardinal directions] of heaven.

9From one of these horns[Diadochi]a little horn[the fourth beast, iron kingdom, beast of Revelation] emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

I understand your interpretation and I also recognize that everyone has interpreted verse 9 the same as you. But verse 9 says that out of “one of them” came a little horn. Meaning ( my view) is that “out of one of the 4 winds of heaven,” not out of one of the 4 notable ones (generals).

In chapter 7, the little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome), not the 3rd kingdom. 
 

The 4 generals are represented as the 4 heads on the leopard of the 3rd kingdom in charge 7. They end the 3rd kingdom. 

 

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

That has not ended. All four divisions exist today.

Agreed. The first 3 kingdoms are now considered to be folded in or under the power of the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome. 
 

27 minutes ago, Diaste said:

To this point Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Iraq still exist.

Once again, none of these nations were identified in chapter 2. Remember, the book of Daniel is NOT a history book that is meant to agree with our history books. God will include and exclude those actors and kingdoms that He finds necessary to reveal His plan of salvation. 
 

He is under no obligation to match our history books. 
 

[Diaste]

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

I understand your interpretation and I also recognize that everyone has interpreted verse 9 the same as you. But verse 9 says that out of “one of them” came a little horn. Meaning ( my view) is that “out of one of the 4 winds of heaven,” not out of one of the 4 notable ones (generals).

I actually interpret verse 11:4 in light of verse 8:8 and 8:20-22. The four winds are then the cardinal directions, not the expanse under the vault of the sky. History proves the succession had nothing to do with Rome or the Papacy.

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

In chapter 7, the little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome), not the 3rd kingdom. 

The 4th kingdom is not named but is a good fit for Islam from about 700-1300 AD.

 

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

The 4 generals are represented as the 4 heads on the leopard of the 3rd kingdom in charge 7. They end the 3rd kingdom. 

Could be. Makes sense.

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

 

Agreed. The first 3 kingdoms are now considered to be folded in or under the power of the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome. 

Where is the evidence it's the Papacy?

 

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

 

Once again, none of these nations were identified in chapter 2. Remember, the book of Daniel is NOT a history book that is meant to agree with our history books. God will include and exclude those actors and kingdoms that He finds necessary to reveal His plan of salvation. 

What is evident from history is the succession of those kingdoms; Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece.

Greece was split into 4 divisions eventually. The Four Generals consolidated their respective realms from the thousands of satrapies and from each other, in the end the divisions of the Grecian Empire were clearly defined.

So if the prophecy is correct in the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece, and we have enough historical evidence to confirm the prophecy came to pass just as spoken[we do], then that same historical evidence confirming prophecy come to pass in relation to the succession of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, can also be used to confirm the prophecy,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power."

...are those four kingdoms of the the Diadochi, because that is exactly what happened. Four kingdoms arose from the great horn, the great horn Gabriel said was the kingdom of Greece. Those kingdoms were ruled by Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Cassander, and Seleucus. No other four came from the fall of Alexander. A fifth did not arise. Only those four in fulfillment of the prophecy above and:

"But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

One should not adhere strictly to part of the vision, and the historical confirmation, then reinterpret based on 4 words that ignore the context of the prophecy and the real world confirmation. Daniel 8 says it was four kingdoms that arose from the fall of Alexander, we know that is the Diadochi and none other.

 

On 11/17/2023 at 4:09 AM, Charlie744 said:

He is under no obligation to match our history books. 
 

Recorded history confirms the fulfillment. That's the thing about prophecy, it's only true if it comes to pass as spoken, if not, then it's false. We only know the true prophecy after it comes to pass, not before. In this case the prophecy was given and history confirm the fulfillment. 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

 

The little horns power is mighty,but not by his own power.

 

 

²⁴ And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

²⁵ And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

This is very telling concerning the little horn which recieves   its power from the United states.

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/how-big-is-israels-military-and-how-much-funding-does-it-get-from-the-us

 

Israel has one of the world's most powerful militaries, bolstered by more than $3.8bn of military aid a year from the US.Oct 11, 2023

 

 

 

 

The king of the north causes the little horn to rule over many and will soon give the little horn a host.

 

Daniel ,8:12

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I actually interpret verse 11:4 in light of verse 8:8 and 8:20-22. The four winds are then the cardinal directions, not the expanse under the vault of the sky. History proves the succession had nothing to do with Rome or the Papacy.

The 4th kingdom is not named but is a good fit for Islam from about 700-1300 AD.

Chapter 2 identifies the 4 kingdoms, and they do not change. After Greece comes the 4th kingdom symbolized by the iron legs - this can be no other kingdom than Rome. It is a “kingdom” that proceeds Greece. It will be a he 4th kingdom thst is in place at the top me of the Messiah and continues to this day in the form of papal Rome.  Again, chapter 2 identifies the 4 kingdom structure. 
 

The 4 generals after Alexander are no different than the kings that come after Cyrus in the 2nd kingdom. Cyrus and Alexander were given a task or a God given mission to fulfill during the time of their kingdom, however, this did not mean that particular kingdom had immediately stopped or that there was no further activity recorded in Daniel. However, neither the kings after Cyrus (Xerxes), or the 4 “notable ones” (4 generals), would step out of their assigned kingdom. They simply represented activity that revealed the end of that kingdom - and they were not given a God given mission as was given to Cyrus and Alexander. 
 

And back to the 4th kingdom, the iron legs can only represent Rome -He  they continue to this day. And history does indeed prove that Rome succeeded Greece and was in place at the time the of the Messiah so He would fulfill all of His God given mission (9:24-27). 
 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

 

 

Could be. Makes sense.

Where is the evidence it's the Papacy?

In chapter 7 the 10 horns, which were symbolized as the 10 toes in the feet of pagan Rome (chapter 2), came out of the 4th beast kingdom. And soon after, the little horn would also come out of pagan Rome right behind them. 
 

Chapter 7 is full of information explaining this little horn and what he will do. Later, the 10 horns will be found sitting atop the 4th kingdom beast along with the little horn. This would happen after the first 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed. Meaning, the little horn would go against pagan Rome and climb to power and reign over the 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome. This is exactly what happened. This little horn would speak pompous words against His people, His saints, and even God Himself. He would declare he was god on earth, infallibility, forgive sins, etc. He will continue until the end of time when he will be destroyed without human hands (God). Chapter 7 paints a clear picture of this little horn who goes against everything that is of God. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

 

What is evident from history is the succession of those kingdoms; Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece.

Greece was split into 4 divisions eventually. The Four Generals consolidated their respective realms from the thousands of satrapies and from each other, in the end the divisions of the Grecian Empire were clearly defined.

So if the prophecy is correct in the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece, and we have enough historical evidence to confirm the prophecy came to pass just as spoken[we do], then that same historical evidence confirming prophecy come to pass in relation to the succession of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, can also be used to confirm the prophecy,

"The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power."

The 4 “notable ones” (not 4 horns) are the 4 generals that come after Alexander but do not step outside the 3rd kingdom. They will never possess the kind of power that Alexander had… again telling us they are not one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2. They came out “towards the 4 winds of heaven,” meaning they came out of the turmoil, conflicts and confusion after Alexander. They did not come out of the sea or the earth as the 4 kingdoms of chapter 2. There was no kingdom that had the kind of power as pagan Rome. In chapter 8, you will also find that Gabriel identified the 3 remaining kingdoms - Medes- Persia, Greece and Rome. They were identified by the level of “powers” as great, very great and exceedingly great, with the last one being pagan Rome. Further, in chapter 8, God specifically identifies the remaining 3 kingdoms using the number of “horns.” Medes-Persia having 2 horns, Greece having 1 horn and papal Rome having 1 horn. They symbolize Darius and Cyrus, then Alexander, the the little horn of papal Rome. 
 

 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

...are those four kingdoms of the the Diadochi, because that is exactly what happened. Four kingdoms arose from the great horn, the great horn Gabriel said was the kingdom of Greece. Those kingdoms were ruled by Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Cassander, and Seleucus. No other four came from the fall of Alexander. A fifth did not arise. Only those four in fulfillment of the prophecy above and:

"But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the authority with which he ruled, because his kingdom will be uprooted and given to others."

One should not adhere strictly to part of the vision, and the historical confirmation, then reinterpret based on 4 words that ignore the context of the prophecy and the real world confirmation. Daniel 8 says it was four kingdoms that arose from the fall of Alexander, we know that is the Diadochi and none other.

 

Recorded history confirms the fulfillment. That's the thing about prophecy, it's only true if it comes to pass as spoken, if not, then it's false. We only know the true prophecy after it comes to pass, not before. In this case the prophecy was given and history confirm the fulfillment. 

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Chapter 2 identifies the 4 kingdoms, and they do not change. After Greece comes the 4th kingdom symbolized by the iron legs - this can be no other kingdom than Rome. It is a “kingdom” that proceeds Greece. It will be a he 4th kingdom thst is in place at the top me of the Messiah and continues to this day in the form of papal Rome.  Again, chapter 2 identifies the 4 kingdom structure. 
 

Chapter 2 does not identify 4 kingdoms, only one is identified and that's Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

We only know there will be a succession from Babylon of Gold, then to silver, to bronze and then iron, from the vision of the statue in Ch. 2.

In Ch. 5 we learn the next kingdom is the Medes and Persians.

In Ch. 8 we find out the Grecian Empire defeats the Medo-Persian Empire that followed Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

There is no identification of the Iron Kingdom other than assumption it must be the Roman Empire, solely based on it's existence at the time of Jesus, or that the Romans ruled over Israel while Israel was in Israel. Neither are convincing criteria, imo, for the identification of the Iron kingdom as the Roman Empire.

 

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The 4 generals after Alexander are no different than the kings that come after Cyrus in the 2nd kingdom. Cyrus and Alexander were given a task or a God given mission to fulfill during the time of their kingdom, however, this did not mean that particular kingdom had immediately stopped or that there was no further activity recorded in Daniel. However, neither the kings after Cyrus (Xerxes), or the 4 “notable ones” (4 generals), would step out of their assigned kingdom. They simply represented activity that revealed the end of that kingdom - and they were not given a God given mission as was given to Cyrus and Alexander. 

It's actually very different. Here's the succession from Alexander to the Diadochi:

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

This is not "randomly under the vault of the sky over the whole earth" when the text says, "...toward the four winds of heaven."

It's the same as the interpretation by Gabriel, "The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power." It just means 'in the cardinal directions', which was fulfilled exactly.

The four horns are four kingdoms that arise from Greece. Only four kingdoms arose from the Grecian Empire subsequent to the death of Alexander: Ptolemy in Egypt, Seleucus in Mesopotamia, Cassander in Macedonia, and Lysimachus in Asia Minor. Rome did not rise from Greece. It must be the case that the four kingdoms arise out of the Grecian Empire since that is exactly what Gabriel said would happen, and it did, just as interpreted.

It's clear the succession here is from Alexander to the Diadochi and not Rome; just as clear as the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece. 

I don't know how it can be any clearer or more simple to understand when Gabriel interprets the vision:

"The four horns that replaced the broken one..." 

This can only be Alexander as the broken horn and the four that replaced that broken horn. 

It's four, not one. Rome is one, maybe two, but Rome isn't four, only the Diadochi are four, and they immediately replaced Greece and Alexander.

"The four horns....represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation,"

The four horns must rise from the nation represented by the great horn that was broken, that's Greece and Alexander. Rome did not rise from Greece. Rome is out as a player in this vision and interpretation.

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And back to the 4th kingdom, the iron legs can only represent Rome -He  they continue to this day. And history does indeed prove that Rome succeeded Greece and was in place at the time the of the Messiah so He would fulfill all of His God given mission (9:24-27). 

I have heard many times that Rome paved the way for Jesus to arrive, as well as facilitate the spread of the Gospel and the growth of the community of believers. I agree this is the case. The Pax Romana didn't allow for insurrection and the Empire was relatively calm and peaceful. 

However, this isn't a part of any criteria for interpretation of Dan 8 given that Gabriel presents the interpretation of the vision. 

History proves the Diadochi are the direct inheritors of the Grecian Empire. There's a whole gamut of historical evidence covering the Wars of the Diadochi.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Wars_of_the_Diadochi/

And many other sources.

In 330 BC Rome was nothing. The fledgling empire could barely survive the fighting with it's neighbors in Italy in the 300s BC. Here's a timeline:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Roman_history

Not Rome, the Diadochi. And it's out of one of the Diadochi which cometh the little horn.

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Chapter 2 does not identify 4 kingdoms, only one is identified and that's Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

We only know there will be a succession from Babylon of Gold, then to silver, to bronze and then iron, from the vision of the statue in Ch. 2.

In Ch. 5 we learn the next kingdom is the Medes and Persians.

In Ch. 8 we find out the Grecian Empire defeats the Medo-Persian Empire that followed Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

There is no identification of the Iron Kingdom other than assumption it must be the Roman Empire, solely based on it's existence at the time of Jesus, or that the Romans ruled over Israel while Israel was in Israel. Neither are convincing criteria, imo, for the identification of the Iron kingdom as the Roman Empire.

 

It's actually very different. Here's the succession from Alexander to the Diadochi:

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

This is not "randomly under the vault of the sky over the whole earth" when the text says, "...toward the four winds of heaven."

It's the same as the interpretation by Gabriel, "The four horns that replaced the broken one represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation, but will not have the same power." It just means 'in the cardinal directions', which was fulfilled exactly.

The four horns are four kingdoms that arise from Greece. Only four kingdoms arose from the Grecian Empire subsequent to the death of Alexander: Ptolemy in Egypt, Seleucus in Mesopotamia, Cassander in Macedonia, and Lysimachus in Asia Minor. Rome did not rise from Greece. It must be the case that the four kingdoms arise out of the Grecian Empire since that is exactly what Gabriel said would happen, and it did, just as interpreted.

It's clear the succession here is from Alexander to the Diadochi and not Rome; just as clear as the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece. 

I don't know how it can be any clearer or more simple to understand when Gabriel interprets the vision:

"The four horns that replaced the broken one..." 

This can only be Alexander as the broken horn and the four that replaced that broken horn. 

It's four, not one. Rome is one, maybe two, but Rome isn't four, only the Diadochi are four, and they immediately replaced Greece and Alexander.

"The four horns....represent four kingdoms that will rise from that nation,"

The four horns must rise from the nation represented by the great horn that was broken, that's Greece and Alexander. Rome did not rise from Greece. Rome is out as a player in this vision and interpretation.

I have heard many times that Rome paved the way for Jesus to arrive, as well as facilitate the spread of the Gospel and the growth of the community of believers. I agree this is the case. The Pax Romana didn't allow for insurrection and the Empire was relatively calm and peaceful. 

However, this isn't a part of any criteria for interpretation of Dan 8 given that Gabriel presents the interpretation of the vision. 

History proves the Diadochi are the direct inheritors of the Grecian Empire. There's a whole gamut of historical evidence covering the Wars of the Diadochi.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Wars_of_the_Diadochi/

And many other sources.

In 330 BC Rome was nothing. The fledgling empire could barely survive the fighting with it's neighbors in Italy in the 300s BC. Here's a timeline:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Roman_history

Not Rome, the Diadochi. And it's out of one of the Diadochi which cometh the little horn.

Thanks. We see these verses very differently. 
 

Just to mention a few more things …. The iron kingdom is indeed Rome. They were known for their use of iron in military weapons. The Greeks were using bronze weapons and that certainly included those that followed Alexander.

Some bibles translate the 4 generals as “horns,” but they should not be … in the Hebrew, they are labeled as “notable ones, or conspicuous ones,” but not horns. 
 The 4 generals came out of “that nation.” They were not one of the 4 kingdoms of chapter 2 or 7. They also represent the 4 heads in chapter 7 of the leopard. The leopard is clearly the 3rd kingdom. Thus, hey came before the 4th kingdom. 
 

They came “towards the 4 winds of heaven,” meaning they came out towards the turmoil, confusion and conflict (winds) after Alexander. 
 

The little horn came out of nowhere the 4th kingdom in chapter 7 - not the 3rd. Again, the 4 generals in chapter 7 are atop the head of the leopard. The little horn came out of the 4 winds, not out of the 4 generals (notable ones). 
 

Yes, the 4 generals are found in our history books but the book of Daniel is not a history book. It reveals God’s plan of salvation and includes the 4 kingdoms where His prophecies will be found. 
 

This could go on and on but I don’t think we interrupt the 4 kingdoms the same way. Chapter 7 offers so many characteristics for the little horn who comes out of the 4th kingdom right alongside the 10 horns. 
 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 11/14/2023 at 7:17 PM, Charlie744 said:

Who is the King of the South (KOS) mentioned twice in chapter 11, and why do you believe your answer is so....?

More than twice: he is specifically mentioned by that name in verses 5, 6, 11, 14, 25 and 40.

The real King of the South, like the King of the North, is a spiritual ruler, not a human. But he does rule through human rulers. This type of being is mentioned in Daniel 10, where the Lord speaks of "the sar/principal ruler of Persia" and "the sar of Greece."

The history of Daniel 11 up through verse 37 is that of two earthly dynasties -- the Ptolemies of Egypt, and the Seleucids of Syria -- who arose from the remnants of Alexander's empire. These two dynasties were themselves ruled over the two sarim, who influenced and sometimes seemingly outright possessed them.

But these earthly dynasties of the Ptolemies Egypt and the Seleucids ceased to exist by the first century BC, both being overcome by the Romans. However, their sarim, being immortal, carried on. So in "the time of the end" (11:40), we must look in other places for the peoples they now control. And we can only determine that by the acts that they will commit in Daniel 11:40 ff.

As things now appear, the spiritual lineage of the King of the North is found in Western Europe and NATO, and the spiritual King of the South is found in Islam. The ruler of Islam is Allah, so this spirit is the sar biblically called the King of the South.

The current primary national heads of Islam are found in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Iran is by far the most aggressive, the one most likely to "lock horns with the King of the North." So the human leader currently likely most influenced/possessed by the spiritual King of the South is Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei.

For the descendancy of the King of the North, go here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1418-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-2-the-transition-from-the-past-to-the-present/

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

More than twice: he is specifically mentioned by that name in verses 5, 6, 11, 14, 25 and 40.

You are correct!!! I responded  with the two mentions of the KOS only because he comes at two different times. He is “in play” at the time of the Messiah, and then we will see him again at the time of the end. But you are correct in that he is mentioned more than a few times within 11.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The real King of the South, like the King of the North, is a spiritual ruler, not a human. But he does rule through human rulers. This type of being is mentioned in Daniel 10, where the Lord speaks of "the sar/principal ruler of Persia" and "the sar of Greece."

The KOS and KON are not spiritual beings, but they do represent two very different systems. One speaks of the true kingdom of God (KOS) while the KON (headed by the little horn), speaks against God and His kingdom. This is the final battle (not militarily)at the end of time. 

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

The history of Daniel 11 up through verse 37 is that of two earthly dynasties -- the Ptolemies of Egypt, and the Seleucids of Syria -- who arose from the remnants of Alexander's empire. These two dynasties were themselves ruled over the two sarim, who influenced and sometimes seemingly outright possessed them.

But these earthly dynasties of the Ptolemies Egypt and the Seleucids ceased to exist by the first century BC, both being overcome by the Romans. However, their sarim, being immortal, carried on. So in "the time of the end" (11:40), we must look in other places for the peoples they now control. And we can only determine that by the acts that they will commit in Daniel 11:40 ff.

As things now appear, the spiritual lineage of the King of the North is found in Western Europe and NATO, and the spiritual King of the South is found in Islam. The ruler of Islam is Allah, so this spirit is the sar biblically called the King of the South.

The current primary national heads of Islam are found in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Iran is by far the most aggressive, the one most likely to "lock horns with the King of the North." So the human leader currently likely most influenced/possessed by the spiritual King of the South is Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei.

For the descendancy of the King of the North, go here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1418-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-2-the-transition-from-the-past-to-the-present/

 

I certainly understand these comments and realize they represent the majority of today’s acceptance interpretations. But they are developed based on man’s conflicts. Most of todays interpretations (almost most of the 12 chapters) are founded on how well we can match the actors and events (or the actors and events we expect to happen based on today’s headlines). But Daniel is not a history book. 
 

It is a 4 kingdom structure where God will place His prophecies within them. They will be revealed as they relate to His people. Most of Daniel takes place from 606BC to 500AD. 
 

Then there is the true end time events that take place and focus on who will or will not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Good v Evil. KOS v KON. 
There will always be wars and rumors of wars. God is not prophesying on man’s wars, but on the spiritual battles for our salvation. 
 
The end is not about nation v nation or this religion v another religion or Russia, Iran, the US or Islam, etc. It surpasses OUR man made national borders or man made religions. KOS will preach the Good News to the world for 3.5 years while KOS will go against him. People will HAVE to decide who to worship. At the end of the 3.5 years, the Messiah will return at the court will be set. 
 

There is absolutely nothing in Daniel that mentions or includes the Ptolemy’s, the Seleucid’s or Epiphanies. They came after the 3rd kingdom and before the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Chapter 2 is SOOOOO critical since it establishes the 4 kingdoms—- and they do not change in the latter chapters of Daniel.