KOS - King of the South

[Shilohsfoal]

29 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

You are correct!!! I responded  with the two mentions of the KOS only because he comes at two different times. He is “in play” at the time of the Messiah, and then we will see him again at the time of the end. But you are correct in that he is mentioned more than a few times within 11.

The KOS and KON are not spiritual beings, but they do represent two very different systems. One speaks of the true kingdom of God (KOS) while the KON (headed by the little horn), speaks against God and His kingdom. This is the final battle (not militarily)at the end of time. 

I certainly understand these comments and realize they represent the majority of today’s acceptance interpretations. But they are developed based on man’s conflicts. Most of todays interpretations (almost most of the 12 chapters) are founded on how well we can match the actors and events (or the actors and events we expect to happen based on today’s headlines). But Daniel is not a history book. 
 

It is a 4 kingdom structure where God will place His prophecies within them. They will be revealed as they relate to His people. Most of Daniel takes place from 606BC to 500AD. 
 

Then there is the true end time events that take place and focus on who will or will not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Good v Evil. KOS v KON. 
There will always be wars and rumors of wars. God is not prophesying on man’s wars, but on the spiritual battles for our salvation. 
 
The end is not about nation v nation or this religion v another religion or Russia, Iran, the US or Islam, etc. It surpasses OUR man made national borders or man made religions. KOS will preach the Good News to the world for 3.5 years while KOS will go against him. People will HAVE to decide who to worship. At the end of the 3.5 years, the Messiah will return at the court will be set. 
 

There is absolutely nothing in Daniel that mentions or includes the Ptolemy’s, the Seleucid’s or Epiphanies. They came after the 3rd kingdom and before the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Chapter 2 is SOOOOO critical since it establishes the 4 kingdoms—- and they do not change in the latter chapters of Daniel. 

 

According to Daniel both the KON and KOS are liars.They both lie.

 

[Diaste]

On 11/19/2023 at 7:14 AM, Charlie744 said:

Thanks. We see these verses very differently. 
 

Just to mention a few more things …. The iron kingdom is indeed Rome. They were known for their use of iron in military weapons. The Greeks were using bronze weapons and that certainly included those that followed Alexander.

I have heard this said for many years yet there isn't any evidence. I don't think the Iron Kingdom is classified as such because they had iron weapons. I'm convinced it's the Iron Kingdom because of it's ideology and actions.

"For 300 years, from 900 to 600 B.C., the Assyrian Empire expanded, conquered and ruled the Middle East, including Mesopotamia, Egypt, the eastern coast of the Mediterranean, and parts of today’s Turkey, Iran and Iraq. Since around 1250 B.C., the Assyrians had started using war chariots and iron weapons, which were far superior to bronze weapons. These tools and tactics made the Assyrian army the most powerful military force of its time, both doctrinally and technologically advanced."

Rome was not the 1st to use iron weapons and it's likely Greece used iron as well. 

On 11/19/2023 at 7:14 AM, Charlie744 said:

Some bibles translate the 4 generals as “horns,” but they should not be … in the Hebrew, they are labeled as “notable ones, or conspicuous ones,” but not horns. 
 The 4 generals came out of “that nation.” They were not one of the 4 kingdoms of chapter 2 or 7. They also represent the 4 heads in chapter 7 of the leopard. The leopard is clearly the 3rd kingdom. Thus, hey came before the 4th kingdom. 

You're correct, the Diadochi come before the 4th kingdom. 

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged

But from one of the Diadochi, the little horn emerges. The little horn is;

"It grew as high as the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trampled them. 11It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And in the rebellion,a the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did."

and...

"He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. "

The little horn is the beast/antichrist and he arises from one of the regions of the Diadochi.

On 11/19/2023 at 7:14 AM, Charlie744 said:

They came “towards the 4 winds of heaven,” meaning they came out towards the turmoil, confusion and conflict (winds) after Alexander. 
 

The little horn came out of nowhere the 4th kingdom in chapter 7 - not the 3rd. Again, the 4 generals in chapter 7 are atop the head of the leopard. The little horn came out of the 4 winds, not out of the 4 generals (notable ones). 

As above, Chapter 8 clarifies where the little horn comes from.

On 11/19/2023 at 7:14 AM, Charlie744 said:

Yes, the 4 generals are found in our history books but the book of Daniel is not a history book. It reveals God’s plan of salvation and includes the 4 kingdoms where His prophecies will be found. 

I didn't say it was. What I did say, a couple times now, is history confirms the precise fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel concerning the succession of the kingdoms; Babylon to Medo/Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. Rome is not alluded to. 

On 11/19/2023 at 7:14 AM, Charlie744 said:

This could go on and on but I don’t think we interrupt the 4 kingdoms the same way. Chapter 7 offers so many characteristics for the little horn who comes out of the 4th kingdom right alongside the 10 horns. 

Sure. And Chapter 8 provides the origin of the little horn and the fourth kingdom.

[Charlie744]

29 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I have heard this said for many years yet there isn't any evidence. I don't think the Iron Kingdom is classified as such because they had iron weapons. I'm convinced it's the Iron Kingdom because of it's ideology and actions.

"For 300 years, from 900 to 600 B.C., the Assyrian Empire expanded, conquered and ruled the Middle East, including Mesopotamia, Egypt, the eastern coast of the Mediterranean, and parts of today’s Turkey, Iran and Iraq. Since around 1250 B.C., the Assyrians had started using war chariots and iron weapons, which were far superior to bronze weapons. These tools and tactics made the Assyrian army the most powerful military force of its time, both doctrinally and technologically advanced."

Rome was not the 1st to use iron weapons and it's likely Greece used iron as well. 

You're correct, the Diadochi come before the 4th kingdom. 

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged

But from one of the Diadochi, the little horn emerges. The little horn is;

"It grew as high as the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trampled them. 11It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And in the rebellion,a the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did."

and...

"He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. "

The little horn is the beast/antichrist and he arises from one of the regions of the Diadochi.

As above, Chapter 8 clarifies where the little horn comes from.

I didn't say it was. What I did say, a couple times now, is history confirms the precise fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel concerning the succession of the kingdoms; Babylon to Medo/Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. Rome is not alluded to. 

Sure. And Chapter 8 provides the origin of the little horn and the fourth kingdom.

I don’t think so. So let’s go back to the beginning… chapter 2. 
Who is the 4th kingdom of chapter 2? It has iron legs and feet of iron and clay?

Chapter 2 identifies the 4 kingdoms and they will not change when they are discussed in 7,8,9 and 11. But take chapter 2 for now. 

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

One speaks of the true kingdom of God (KOS) while

Then point out one verse in Daniel 11 that specifically says this. (Hint: it ain't there.)

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Daniel is not a history book. ...There is absolutely nothing in Daniel that mentions or includes the Ptolemy’s, the Seleucid’s or Epiphanies. 

Daniel prophesied history, much of which came to pass before and up to the time of Christ. Including most of Daniel 11. For you to deny that Daniel 11:21-31 is not an exact description of the period of Antiochus IV's reign from 176-168 BC only shows your disdain for history.

[Charlie744]

49 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Then point out one verse in Daniel 11 that specifically says this. (Hint: it ain't there.)

It certainly is there but it all depends on the interpretations of these verses. Most people claim these speak of the post Alexander 4 generals and some unimportant want-to-be thug, who came 150 years after Alexander and was not even a substantial individual in OUR history books. 
 

But they (interpreters) follow a “historical” approach to interpreting Daniel, they NEED to find actors and events in OUR history books to match to these verses to find, not only His prophetic message but their accuracy. God is not obligated to match His prophecies to our flawed history books. 

He will include only those actors and events He wants to reveal His plan of salvation. He is not interested in presenting a history lesson. 
 

From 11:1 -4, God identifies and places the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms in the rear view mirror. Their mission within His plan of salvation is fulfilled.There is ONLY one kingdom remaining- Rome.

There is no kingdom in chapters 2, 7,8, 9 or 10 that is comprised of these 4 generals or a thug like Epiphanies. These 4 “notable” one (not horns), were thrown out into the 4 winds of heaven (winds here represent the post Alexander period of turmoil, conflict and instability until the 4th kingdom came in (Rome). They certainly existed but they were not given a mission within God’s plan of salvation… but you will find them in our history books. 
 

Chapter 11 is about the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. After 11:4, the time period begins in pagan Rome - the 4th and final kingdom. 
 

This prophetic book is all about Him and His plan of salvation, not some history lesson to be matched up to our history books. 
 

If you look for the Messiah in these verses, you will find Him. If you look at these verses as a history book, you will find “some” actors that “seem” to match our history books but they quickly break down. 
 

 

 

49 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel prophesied history, much of which came to pass before and up to the time of Christ. Including most of Daniel 11. For you to deny that Daniel 11:21-31 is not an exact description of the period of Antiochus IV's reign from 176-168 BC only shows your disdain for history.

I am not sure how one can have a “disdain” for history… that is clearly something personal going on within you… 

The book of Daniel belongs in the religious section of the library not in the history section. The 4 kingdoms are just the “structure” where God will reveal and place His prophecies. And at ALL times, they will center around His people. 
 

With the exception of the very last section of verses in chapter 11, which gives us an snapshot of the “truly” last days, 11:5 to 11:39 cover the period of the 4th kingdom of both pagan and papal Rome only. 
 

Chapter 11 is perhaps one of the most difficult and almost impossible chapters to unpack. I don’t believe I have all the verses completely interpreted, especially due the extensive use of pronouns in 40-45, but the big picture can be seen. 
 

I have read and tried to understand today’s accepted interpretations for a long time. No matter what scholars or academics or theologians were read, I could not find a significantly different interpretation than the same one you and just about everyone else has accepted. I also could not find how they really did not seem to be consistent, complete, or accurate to our history books. They truly did not match up to our history records.. but they made them seem like s great fit. 
 

Since the “spiritual/ Messianic” interpretation approach was successful in the first 10 chapters, I turned away from their attempted “historical” approach and found these verses speak to the coming Messiah and the actors and events at the time of His first coming and to the coming of full power of the little horn- the papacy who will continue until His return. 
 

So, unless you are willing to put OUR history books aside, you will never see His prophetic messages in chapter 11. 

[WilliamL]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

1) With the exception of the very last section of verses in chapter 11, which gives us an snapshot of the “truly” last days, 11:5 to 11:39 cover the period of the 4th kingdom of both pagan and papal Rome only. ...

2) So, unless you are willing to put OUR history books aside, you will never see His prophetic messages in chapter 11. 

1) If that is so, then provide us with the Roman history that corresponds to each verse, and especially verses 21-31. Evidence please, not just unsubstantiated claims.

2) So are you saying here that we are to totally ignore all ancient history, both Roman and Greek? Any just rely on your interpretation to the exclusion of all else?

[Charlie744]

39 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

1) If that is so, then provide us with the Roman history that corresponds to each verse, and especially verses 21-31. Evidence please, not just unsubstantiated claims.

2) So are you saying here that we are to totally ignore all ancient history, both Roman and Greek? Any just rely on your interpretation to the exclusion of all else?

Alright, I want you to give me the same support that you requested. Who is the KOS and why? 
 And just don’t give the common claim that it is the Ptolemy’s or the Seleucids.

Anyone can read someone else’s thoughts or interpretations. Tell me who the Daughter of women is and why?

Who is the branch and why?

What is the agreement referring to?

Who brought her, who begot her, who strengthened her and why?

Who are the violent men and why are they referred to as such?

What does the term “Glorious Land” mean and why?

Who shall remove the “reproach” and what is it?

Who is the one referred to as the exact or or the one who raises taxes?

Who is the vile person?

who is the king that shall do according to his own will and why?

At the time of the end the KOS shall attack him… who is this KOS and who is he attacking and why?

Now please be specific and consistent throughout all of verse 11. Don’t just throw out some comments many others have thrown out because they SEEM to fit A FEW of the actors in our history books.

Take your time, take one at a time as opposed to responding to each of the above questions all at once. 
 

And try and keep in mind that God is not writing a history lesson or chapter- that is not the purpose of His prophecies- that would be a tremendous waste of His prophetic capital. 
 

Remember, these verses are meant to speak to His first coming and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. They are not being given by God as a history lesson. 
 

I am aware of today’s accepted interpretations and not only do they NOT speak of His coming but they are indeed full of holes that offer no consistency, leave so many verses unaddressed, attempt to cherry pick random actors or events to try and fill it some if those holes … 

Good luck and I am looking forward to your scholarship. 

[WilliamL]

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Alright, I want you to give me the same support that you requested. Who is the KOS and why? 
 And just don’t give the common claim that it is the Ptolemy’s or the Seleucids.

Already answered on Monday @ 3:52 PM. To which you responded. 

As to your looong list of other questions: I asked you two (admittedly substantial ones), but you answered neither. So please answer my question solely about verses 21-31, and I will do the same.

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Already answered on Monday @ 3:52 PM. To which you responded. 

As to your looong list of other questions: I asked you two (admittedly substantial ones), but you answered neither. So please answer my question solely about verses 21-31, and I will do the same.

Who is the KOS and why ? 
 

Remember, Scripture teaches Scripture. There is no need to bring in extra-biblical source records.  God gave Daniel to the Jews —- they certainly would never use extra-biblical records to interpret His Word. Everything was in the Tanakh! 
 

Happy Thanksgiving.

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Remember, Scripture teaches Scripture. There is no need to bring in extra-biblical source records.  God gave Daniel to the Jews —- they certainly would never use extra-biblical records to interpret His Word. Everything was in the Tanakh! 

The Tanakh quotes quite a number of secular sources! If you are not aware of that, then it shows that you haven't studied it.

So much for your claim that you must exclude them.