What is the `better resurrection? `

[WilliamL]

32 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

The king of Tyre was certainly not `perfect in your ways from the day your were created.` (Ez. 28: 15)

The king of Tyre certainly was not `in Eden, the garden of God.` (Ez. 28: 13)

etc.....

The description goes far beyond describing an earthly king. 

 

Your statements directly contradict verse 12, wherein God addresses a "lamentation for the king of Tyre... "You were the seal of perfection..." "

This spirit-king of Tyre was comparable to "the sar of  Persia" and "the sar of Greece" of Daniel 10, that is, other such corrupted yet still heavenly spirits. All of these were not impure in their beginnings, but only became corrupted over time, both by being seduced by Satan, and by their meddling in the affairs of men. The latter testified by verse 16.

Edited December 26, 2023 by WilliamL

[AdHoc]

22 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

God actually gave the revelation of a `better resurrection,` the resurrection of the righteous, starting at Abel.

`By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was more righteous, God testifying of his gifts; through it he being dead still speaks.` (Heb. 11: 4)

And he and the other `righteous` men (& women) were NOT looking to come back to earth but to the promised city, the New Jerusalem which will come out of the third heaven to the universal realm so that the glory of God and His righteous rulership will be over the earth.

`But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 16) 

 

 

22 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

There is the kingdom/rule of God on earth, however God made and owns much more than that. 

Christ is `far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, (ever Lucifer/Satan) not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

Christ`s seat of authority and power in the third heaven is far above where Lucifer ruled and where he was cast out to. Let us not try and bring the Lord down to our level.

 

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Lucifer`s Throne in the Third Heaven.

`You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of the fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you.` (Ez. 28: 14 & 15)

`For you said in your heart, “I will ascend into heaven, (God`s throne) I will exalt my throne above the stars (angels) of God, …` (Isa. 14: 13)

 

Lucifer`s Throne in the Universal Realm.

`Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God…` (Ez. 28: 16)

Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven to the Universal realm where he usurped the authoritative position there – Principalities and Powers.

`For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

`…to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.` (Eph. 2: 1)

 

God made this authoritative position.

`For by Him (Christ) all things were created …..whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers… created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1 : 16)

 

Lucifer`s Throne on Earth.

Satan the accuser (the devil, serpent of old and dragon) will be cast out of the universal heaven to the earth in the middle of the tribulation.

`Therefore rejoice O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.` (Rev. 12: 12)

`The dragon gave him (anti-Christ) his power, his throne, and great authority.` (Rev. 13: 2)

 

 

Every crucial statement you have made does not match the language of the verse you offered. Christ's throne in the third heaven, universal realm, Lucifer's throne etc., just do not appear. Language is given by God to transmit ideas. Those scriptures do not transmit those concepts or those names. I understand that if you've been taught these things it is very hard to let go, but if you want to give me the position of Lucifer's throne, it should say so in the language.

Also, though it is your right to ignore my explanations of scriptures you offered, if you do not show what is correct, you let them stand. Why not show me that "heavenly" is the PLACE, as you maintain, and not a NATURE as I maintain. Maybe you could explain why those of faith in Hebrews 11, sought a City in heaven when God made man for the earth. Did Satan win and God's last stand is to scoop up some wounded, bedraggled, war-weary Christians to heaven?

[Mr. M]

40 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

That is `we,` but what about the `they` of Heb. 11?

40 God having provided something better for us,

that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

They are a part of the resurrection of the just.

This could not occur without us, for we all 

are justified by Christ. We are all apart of that

resurrection. Of course, no one who has died, before

or after Christ can take part in the first resurrection,

that being unique. All the rest are resurrected after

1000 years. If us is we who are alive, that possibility

continues to exist.

Luke 14:13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor,

the maimed, the lame, the blind. 

14 And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you;

for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves

also accept, that there will be a resurrection

of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

[Mr. M]

48 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Principalities and powers is a rulership position and that is what Lucifer has usurped. That is what it says in God`s word that we wrestle against.

That does not make him "the head".

What scriptures are you referring to

when you make this claim?

Satan offered Jesus "all the kingdoms

of this world" in His temptation, not

any heavenly places. Satan is cast to the earth.

Luke 10:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall

like lightning from heaven. 

19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample

on serpents and scorpions, and over

all the power of the enemy, and nothing

shall by any means hurt you. 

20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this,

that the spirits are subject to you,

but rather rejoice because your names

are written in heaven.

1 Peter 3:

21 There is also an anti-type which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

[Marilyn C]

52 minutes ago, farouk said:

Hi @Marilyn C John 5.29 refers to the two sorts of resurrections.

Yes, one to life and one to condemnation. Is there anything specific you wanted to highlight there, farouk?

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Your statements directly contradict verse 12, wherein God addresses a "lamentation for the king of Tyre... "You were the seal of perfection..." "

This spirit-king of Tyre was comparable to "the sar of  Persia" and "the sar of Greece" of Daniel 10, that is, other such corrupted yet still heavenly spirits. All of these were not impure in their beginnings, but only became corrupted over time, both by being seduced by Satan, and by their meddling in the affairs of men. The latter testified by verse 16.

The description of the king of Tyre comes under the law of double reference - of an earthly king and of Satan, (Lucifer) who influenced him.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 

Every crucial statement you have made does not match the language of the verse you offered. Christ's throne in the third heaven, universal realm, Lucifer's throne etc., just do not appear. Language is given by God to transmit ideas. Those scriptures do not transmit those concepts or those names. I understand that if you've been taught these things it is very hard to let go, but if you want to give me the position of Lucifer's throne, it should say so in the language.

Also, though it is your right to ignore my explanations of scriptures you offered, if you do not show what is correct, you let them stand. Why not show me that "heavenly" is the PLACE, as you maintain, and not a NATURE as I maintain. 

We know in Rev. 12: 7 - 12 that there was a war in heaven and Satan and his fallen angels were cast out to the earth. Obviously, they were in a higher authoritative position and then had to come down to be limited to the earth.

And in Eph. 6: 12 that we `do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. `

There again we are told of rulers, wickedness etc  in the heavenly places. And as Lucifer/Satan was cast out of higher up, the third heaven, the downward fall is clear.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

 Maybe you could explain why those of faith in Hebrews 11, sought a City in heaven when God made man for the earth. Did Satan win and God's last stand is to scoop up some wounded, bedraggled, war-weary Christians to heaven?

Now that is a very good question there Ad Hoc. I do like it when people think and ask an important question.

God`s great kingdom involves ALL He made from the highest to the lowest. All positions of authority were given to either angels or man. However, none of these have been shown to be able to rule righteously. 

This God knew but because He is just, He has given opportunity for this. 

Now God could have just ruled `from a distance, ` beyond heaven but His desire is to have sons who would rule with His visible glorified Son in the third heaven. These `sons` are of the new man, with bodies made for the higher realms.

And then in the Universal realm God has planned for others to rule there - in the New Jerusalem. It will be the connecting of the spiritual and physical realms.

Then on the new earth man (from Adam) will be made new and have dominion over the earth as declared in Genesis.

Every realm with righteous rulership, under the Lord Jesus Christ. 

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Mr. M said:

40 God having provided something better for us,

that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

They are a part of the resurrection of the just.

This could not occur without us, for we all 

are justified by Christ. We are all apart of that

resurrection. Of course, no one who has died, before

or after Christ can take part in the first resurrection,

that being unique. All the rest are resurrected after

1000 years. If us is we who are alive, that possibility

continues to exist.

Luke 14:13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor,

the maimed, the lame, the blind. 

14 And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you;

for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves

also accept, that there will be a resurrection

of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

The Body of Christ was not known or written about in the Gospels. It has to do with Israel and the nations.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Mr. M said:

That does not make him "the head".

What scriptures are you referring to

when you make this claim?

Satan offered Jesus "all the kingdoms

of this world" in His temptation, not

any heavenly places. Satan is cast to the earth.

Luke 10:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall

like lightning from heaven. 

19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample

on serpents and scorpions, and over

all the power of the enemy, and nothing

shall by any means hurt you. 

20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this,

that the spirits are subject to you,

but rather rejoice because your names

are written in heaven.

1 Peter 3:

21 There is also an anti-type which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Again, you are using scriptures to do with Israel and trying to make them for us. Now, could you please be a bit clearer as to your question?

[Serving]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:37 AM, Marilyn C said:

What is the `Better Resurrection.`

 

Hebrews 11 is about the Old Testament saints who all had faith in what God promised them – a better resurrection. And that is better than life on this earth.

`These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, they were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have an opportunity to return.

But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.` (Heb. 11: 13 – 16)  

 

Further on it says -

`Women received their dead raised to life again. And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.` (Heb. 11: 35)

 

So, we see that God has promised these Old Testament Saints a `better resurrection` to the city he is preparing for them.

So, what is that all about?

 

God is restoring His righteous rulership in every realm, (not just the earth). Job said - `The heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15) And that `heavens` is the Universal realm where God has established a rulership position – Principalities and Powers.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones and dominions or principalities or powers…` (Col. 1: 16)

 

This rulership realm, Principalities and powers was usurped by Lucifer when he was cast out from his throne in the third heaven. That is why he is called `the Prince of the power of the air..` (Eph. 2: 2) In the middle of the tribulation he and his fallen angels will get cast out of there and be limited to on the earth. (Rev. 12: 7 – 12)

 

However, that rulership realm will not always be vacant for God will set up His righteous rulership there through the Old Testament Saints. At this time these just/righteous ones (OT saints) are waiting in the General Assembly in the third heaven.

`…the General Assembly …. To God….to the spirits of just (righteous) men (& women) made perfect.` (Heb. 12: 23)

 

In the New Heavens and Earth God will send the city, the New Jerusalem with the Old Testament saints down to the Universal realm where they will take up the rulership position of Principalities and Powers.

`Then I, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God..` (Rev. 21: 2)

 

This rulership is what the Old Testament saints were promised in the city, not on the earth but in the universal heavens. This is the better resurrection they looked for.

 

Hi Marilyn,

Long time no speak huh.

When AFlameOfFire and I were chatting I didn't get the chance to tell you that I actually understood what "Better resurrection" meant before you posted this post before Flame and I were even finished chatting, Lol, you were very quick on the draw, I'll give you that.

Instead, I was musing over some other points to consider relating to "Better resurrection" that never occurred to me before is all ..   

Even though I don't agree with everything you posted, overall, I agree with your general description of better resurrection minus a small few hiccups therein. 

I still thank you for going to the effort of posting this though. After all, none of us agree on everything right?

I do want to say this though .. when I read Rev 12, I perceive that Satan was kicked out of heaven either when Christ was crucified or when Christ ascended, between that narrow window anyways .. I'm still 50/50 on the actual timing though, have been for years.

So thanks again Marilyn, cheers.