Why aren't they fleeing?

[Shilohsfoal]

And look everyone.When faced with imprisonment and death during the tribulation,the saints in Israel still don't flee.

 

Luke 21

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

And yes,I call them saints because the word of God calls them saints.

 

Daniel 7

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

²⁶ But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

²⁷ And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

 

The saints are persecuted for a time,times and a half.

They did not flee.

 

20 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus  tells his disciples,they should look up when they begin to see these things in the Olivet discourse .

The saints don't need to flee,they only need to look up .Look closely at verse 28.

 

 

²¹ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

²² For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

²³ But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

²⁴ And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

²⁵ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

 

²⁶ Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

²⁷ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

 

 

You propose a strange logic. "Those in Judea" are advised by the Lord to flee. You make them the same company as Revelation 6 - "EVERY Man" - and they DO FLEE. Then you say they don't flee but look up.

Then you discuss Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 but define them from Daniel 7. In Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 NONE is called a "saint". But then, in Daniel 7, which correctly shows the saints "WORN OUT", you make them heroes who look up.

I am perplexed.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I do not want to derail this thread, but this could be associated. In the exodus, God provided manna and quail to feed Israel. In Revelation 12:6, who do you suppose the "they" are that feed the remnant of Israel?

I understand your question, but because I do not see the Woman as Israel, or part of it, I am constrained to pass on this one. But i do think that you have a valid point and are not derailing the thread. Let's see if we can get closer.

The Woman is a "sign". She is in heaven. She has three types of "seed":
1. A Man-Child
2. Those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ - Christians
3. Those who keep the commandments of God - The Remnant of Israel

What ever one calculates the Woman to be, the following are facts
- The time frame is when Satan has but a little time.
- The Man-Child is raptured to the throne and so misses the wrath of the Dragon
- The Woman and the "remainder of her seed" must flee to a wilderness for 1260 days
- The Woman is helped " by the earth"

Now, if we believe Revelation 3:10, then the Overcomers in Philadelphia are raptured to avoid the Great Tribulation. Their escape from "the hour" is in stark contrast to what happens to "the  remainder of Her Seed". And though the remainder of her seed have the testimony of Jesus Christ AND keep the commandments of God, they are not judge WORTHY to avoid "the hour". This is confirmed by God not helping them. In Sinai, as you have said, there is sustenance by God. But not so here. The "EARTH" must help. There is only one place in the bible that fits the circumstances.

In Matthew 24 our Lord is like a thief. In 25 He is seen and admired by all. In 24 He comes secretly for something valuable. One is take  and some LEFT (behind). In 25 our Lord Jesus goes away and delays in both the Parable of the Talents and the Virgins. But when He judges "ALL Nations" (v.31-32) He is COME. It is no longer the Bema but the THRONE. He is no longer the thief but glorious among angels. And He judges "ALL Nations" on how they helped "the least of His brethren". Soem did and some did not. Because of the Covenant with Abraham, those who helped by abide. Those who refused help are cast out in the Lake of Fire.

I propose that the heavenly woman is New Jerusalem. Both are mystical. Both are a "sign". Both are heavenly. Both are Mothers (Gal.4:26). Both are mother of Christian and Jew alike. Her seed is in CONTRAST to the seed of the serpent.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

And look everyone.When faced with imprisonment and death during the tribulation,the saints in Israel still don't flee.

 

Luke 21

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

The reason that they do not flee is obvious. They become prisoners.

[Dennis1209]

4 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I understand your question, but because I do not see the Woman as Israel, or part of it, I am constrained to pass on this one. But i do think that you have a valid point and are not derailing the thread. Let's see if we can get closer.

The Woman is a "sign". She is in heaven. She has three types of "seed":
1. A Man-Child
2. Those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ - Christians
3. Those who keep the commandments of God - The Remnant of Israel

What ever one calculates the Woman to be, the following are facts
- The time frame is when Satan has but a little time.
- The Man-Child is raptured to the throne and so misses the wrath of the Dragon
- The Woman and the "remainder of her seed" must flee to a wilderness for 1260 days
- The Woman is helped " by the earth"

Now, if we believe Revelation 3:10, then the Overcomers in Philadelphia are raptured to avoid the Great Tribulation. Their escape from "the hour" is in stark contrast to what happens to "the  remainder of Her Seed". And though the remainder of her seed have the testimony of Jesus Christ AND keep the commandments of God, they are not judge WORTHY to avoid "the hour". This is confirmed by God not helping them. In Sinai, as you have said, there is sustenance by God. But not so here. The "EARTH" must help. There is only one place in the bible that fits the circumstances.

In Matthew 24 our Lord is like a thief. In 25 He is seen and admired by all. In 24 He comes secretly for something valuable. One is take  and some LEFT (behind). In 25 our Lord Jesus goes away and delays in both the Parable of the Talents and the Virgins. But when He judges "ALL Nations" (v.31-32) He is COME. It is no longer the Bema but the THRONE. He is no longer the thief but glorious among angels. And He judges "ALL Nations" on how they helped "the least of His brethren". Soem did and some did not. Because of the Covenant with Abraham, those who helped by abide. Those who refused help are cast out in the Lake of Fire.

I propose that the heavenly woman is New Jerusalem. Both are mystical. Both are a "sign". Both are heavenly. Both are Mothers (Gal.4:26). Both are mother of Christian and Jew alike. Her seed is in CONTRAST to the seed of the serpent.

I have never thought about that perspective, thanks. I have always thought about the woman as Israel. I concluded at the A.O.D. Israel needs to flee for the mountains (possibly Petra, Jordan), sounding as if Satan supernaturally floods the Jordan River to prevent their escape, and the earth swallows the water up. They have no time to return to their dwelling to retrieve even a cloak but run for their lives. 

Naturally, this remnant of Israel must be sustained with sustenance for 1,260 days. I associated this feeding with "they" and wondered who "they" were. 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

You propose a strange logic. "Those in Judea" are advised by the Lord to flee. You make them the same company as Revelation 6 - "EVERY Man" - and they DO FLEE. Then you say they don't flee but look up.

Then you discuss Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 but define them from Daniel 7. In Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 NONE is called a "saint". But then, in Daniel 7, which correctly shows the saints "WORN OUT", you make them heroes who look up.

I am perplexed.

False.Jesus does not advise anyone to flee He said "let those in judea flee".Everyone in judea will be fleeing except them which belongs to Jesus.They are told to look up by Jesus because they are being redeemed at that time.See,you believe a christian must run fast or they will suffer the wrath of God.This is nonsense.The saints are delivered at he time of great tribulation as Daniel 12:1 says.

 

I'm not sure why you believe a christian must flee in order to be saved.Jesus never taught any such thing.

Edited January 8 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The reason that they do not flee is obvious. They become prisoners.

They become prisoners and are killed because Insted of fleeing, they chose to finish Jesus's work by preaching to the lost sheep of Israel as they are commanded.They could have fled if they wanted,but they choose not to.

 

Revelation ,2:26

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

 

Jesus work was to not flee,but to lay down his life.

 

John 10

¹¹ “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. ¹² The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. ¹³ The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

 

The saints don't  want to flee.They want to do their masters work even if it cost them their lives. They are told in the gospel that many of them will die.They know beforehand that they will be persecuted,imprisoned and killed.Its no secret to anyone.

 

Mathew 24

 

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 

This persecution of the saints in Israel at the time of the end  is found in several books in the bible.The saints already know these things long before they happen.They are not fleeing from.it.

Edited January 8 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

 (Re 13:6–7).

13 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

They become prisoners and are killed because Insted of fleeing, they chose to finish Jesus's work by preaching to the lost sheep of Israel as they are commanded.They could have fled if they wanted,but they choose not to.

 

Revelation ,2:26

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

 

Jesus work was to not flee,but to lay down his life.

 

John 10

¹¹ “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. ¹² The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. ¹³ The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

 

The saints don't  want to flee.They want to do their masters work even if it cost them their lives. They are told in the gospel that many of them will die.They know beforehand that they will be persecuted,imprisoned and killed.Its no secret to anyone.

 

Mathew 24

 

¹² But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

¹³ And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

¹⁴ Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

¹⁵ For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 

This persecution of the saints in Israel at the time of the end  is found in several books in the bible.The saints already know these things long before they happen.They are not fleeing from.it.

In a previous posting you said that the group in Mathew 24 and Revelation 6 are the same group. If they are the same group then THEY HAVE FLED. They are already hiding in the caves. And they are hiding from God's WRATH. There is no talk of then doing their Master's work. They are trying to escape:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand (Re 6:15–17)

In Matthew 24 these are the words of our Lord.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains ...

"Let" is emphatic. It is authoritative. "LET you women be silent in the meetings ... is not a suggestion. "Let them flee" is an order.

Once the Beast is in power, the SAINTS will be overcome. Revelation 13:7 says;

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Let us forget the idea of hero Christians after the Beast has taken power.

 

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have never thought about that perspective, thanks. I have always thought about the woman as Israel. I concluded at the A.O.D. Israel needs to flee for the mountains (possibly Petra, Jordan), sounding as if Satan supernaturally floods the Jordan River to prevent their escape, and the earth swallows the water up. They have no time to return to their dwelling to retrieve even a cloak but run for their lives. 

Naturally, this remnant of Israel must be sustained with sustenance for 1,260 days. I associated this feeding with "they" and wondered who "they" were. 

 

Sometimes the broad picture helps more than the detail. "Revelation", or "Apocalypse" concerns that time when Jesus is "revealed" from heaven. The earth has blossomed into evil as never before. God has had enough. He unleashes His wrath on all the earth. The Nations are living in a swamp of iniquity. Israel has fully rejected Jesus and have installed a Gentile Roman Caesar in the Holy of Holies. The Church is apostate. Prophecy traces the fate of these three peoples.

The political and religious Leader of the world is the Beast. Israel agreed to him taking a seat in the Holy of Holies. God unleashes "Jacob's Trouble" - the Great Tribulation with its center in Jerusalem. But God has kept a remnant.

The Church is saved from God's wrath by Jesus' Work. But when the moment comes most of Christians are playing in Satan's back yard (Rev.18:4). The Church must experience "her plagues", except for the Overcomers. So, on earth.

Revelation Chapter 12 gives the fate of these peoples.
1.The Overcomers of the Church.
2. The apostate Church
3. The Remnant of Israel
The Woman of Revelation 12 is "MOTHER OF THEM ALL" (They are all her seed)

Galatians CONTRASTS Christianity and Grace to Israel and Law. In Galatians you have;
1. Christians who have not returned to Law and are under grace
2. Christians who have heeded the Jews and returned to Law
3. Believing Jews who taught the falsehood
Jerusalem above is MOTHER OF THEM ALL (4:26)

When all is subdued and New Jerusalem is come
1. She is a MOTHER
2. She is a City for ruling and dwelling
3. Her walls are Christians
4. Her gates are Israel
If she is a MOTHER she is "MOTHER OF THEM ALL"

- Galatians and Romans show New Jerusalem INCOMPLETE (in this age). The Church is immature and Israel have no faith
- Revelation 12 shows New Jerusalem in the TRANSITION from the age of Gentile Kingdom to Christ's Kingdom (3½ years)
- Revelation 20 shows New Jerusalem in the MILLENNIAL AGE. Overcomers reigning, Israel restored with a New Covenant of Law and the Church in chastisement
- Revelation 21 shows New Jerusalem CONSUMMATED. The City is Bride, Wife, Mother and Citadel for reigning. Christians are fully transformed to precious stones. Israel is full righteous (Pearl)

The Bible started with a Garden of FELLOWSHIP on earth. In it where the materials to build the City of HOLY FELLOWSHIP. Gold is the nature of God. Bdellium is a pearl from a Tree and shows righteousness/righteous works. A precious stone is made by transforming wood to stone in great heat and pressure. Wood is humanity. Between Adam and New Jerusalem, Bdellium became redundant because blood must be shed. It is replaced by silver - the price of a woman and the price paid for Jesus. So 1st Corinthians 3 the elements are God, Silver and Precious Stones and Wood. In New Jerusalem all men are resurrected. The Adamic nature is gone. Silver is not needed and is replace again by pearl - but pearl that comes from the animal life and is made by an injury.

It may sound mystical but the things of God are shown by the creature. God had a plan. We're the supporting actor. The stage is earth. God humbled Himself to be attached to men, but the outcome is glorious.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; (Ro 1:19–20)

 

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Sometimes the broad picture helps more than the detail. "Revelation", or "Apocalypse" concerns that time when Jesus is "revealed" from heaven. The earth has blossomed into evil as never before. God has had enough. He unleashes His wrath on all the earth. The Nations are living in a swamp of iniquity. Israel has fully rejected Jesus and have installed a Gentile Roman Caesar in the Holy of Holies. The Church is apostate. Prophecy traces the fate of these three peoples.

The political and religious Leader of the world is the Beast. Israel agreed to him taking a seat in the Holy of Holies. God unleashes "Jacob's Trouble" - the Great Tribulation with its center in Jerusalem. But God has kept a remnant.

The Church is saved from God's wrath by Jesus' Work. But when the moment comes most of Christians are playing in Satan's back yard (Rev.18:4). The Church must experience "her plagues", except for the Overcomers. So, on earth.

Revelation Chapter 12 gives the fate of these peoples.
1.The Overcomers of the Church.
2. The apostate Church
3. The Remnant of Israel
The Woman of Revelation 12 is "MOTHER OF THEM ALL" (They are all her seed)

Galatians CONTRASTS Christianity and Grace to Israel and Law. In Galatians you have;
1. Christians who have not returned to Law and are under grace
2. Christians who have heeded the Jews and returned to Law
3. Believing Jews who taught the falsehood
Jerusalem above is MOTHER OF THEM ALL (4:26)

When all is subdued and New Jerusalem is come
1. She is a MOTHER
2. She is a City for ruling and dwelling
3. Her walls are Christians
4. Her gates are Israel
If she is a MOTHER she is "MOTHER OF THEM ALL"

- Galatians and Romans show New Jerusalem INCOMPLETE (in this age). The Church is immature and Israel have no faith
- Revelation 12 shows New Jerusalem in the TRANSITION from the age of Gentile Kingdom to Christ's Kingdom (3½ years)
- Revelation 20 shows New Jerusalem in the MILLENNIAL AGE. Overcomers reigning, Israel restored with a New Covenant of Law and the Church in chastisement
- Revelation 21 shows New Jerusalem CONSUMMATED. The City is Bride, Wife, Mother and Citadel for reigning. Christians are fully transformed to precious stones. Israel is full righteous (Pearl)

The Bible started with a Garden of FELLOWSHIP on earth. In it where the materials to build the City of HOLY FELLOWSHIP. Gold is the nature of God. Bdellium is a pearl from a Tree and shows righteousness/righteous works. A precious stone is made by transforming wood to stone in great heat and pressure. Wood is humanity. Between Adam and New Jerusalem, Bdellium became redundant because blood must be shed. It is replaced by silver - the price of a woman and the price paid for Jesus. So 1st Corinthians 3 the elements are God, Silver and Precious Stones and Wood. In New Jerusalem all men are resurrected. The Adamic nature is gone. Silver is not needed and is replace again by pearl - but pearl that comes from the animal life and is made by an injury.

It may sound mystical but the things of God are shown by the creature. God had a plan. We're the supporting actor. The stage is earth. God humbled Himself to be attached to men, but the outcome is glorious.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; (Ro 1:19–20)

 

I am slowly coming around to your way of thinking, somewhat. Lately, I have been studying the kingdoms: the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven (on earth), the Gentile kingdom, the Jewish kingdom, and the Antichrist kingdom: their differences, associations, symbolism, and application.

An understanding of John the Baptist coming preaching: Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Jesus stopped preaching the kingdom of heaven and then switched to the kingdom of God with parables. The Jews were offered the kingdom first and rejected it. The kingdom of heaven will again be preached in the Tribulation.

The two kingdoms (kingdom of God – kingdom of heaven) are not interchangeable at this time, but will become so: 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Rightly dividing these kingdom differences puts Revelation in a different perspective and understanding. Many, as I have, have assumed these two kingdoms are the same. They appear not to be, as the kingdom of heaven is everything seen in the physical. The kingdom of God the Father seems to be everything physical and invisible, including all the created spiritual beings.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.