Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[Charlie744]

@douggg, if you are willing, would you like to walk through 9:24 - 27 with me (verse by verse) and WITHOUT bringing in ANY verses from the NT? I have found that almost all people answer Daniel with verses found in Revelation. 
If we were to discuss Genesis or Jeremiah we would not look to Revelation for its interpretation.If you want to try this approach, I would get a clear understanding of when / why our interpretations differ so much. But this can only be accomplished if we stay WITHIN Daniel. Because Daniel was written for the Jews and the prophecies of the coming Messiah. 

 

Chapter 9 is a Messianic prophecy that begins with Daniel’s prayer of forgiveness for himself and the people of Israel. Within this prayer it references the “Covenant” that God entered into His people. Verses 24-27 are Messianic prophecies that are concerned with the physical and spiritual restoration of the Jews, their Temple, walls and streets, and restoration of all the Levitical ceremonies, practices, etc. The purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy is the restoration of all things from the Babylonian captivity and the complete destruction of Israel. 

 

Ok, I will submit a new topic later this evening. In the meantime, and again, if this was your first time reading / studying Daniel and you just happened to be living in the first century just prior to the Messiah's arrival (no knowledge of ANY NT books), I submit you would have absolutely NO concern / consideration / thourhts / expectations, etc., about the end of the world type events. The Jews were anticipating the  coming of their Messiah but to them, that would have brought in the end of things. They were expecting Him to establish His kingdom on the earth, destroy the Romans and Jerusalem would be the center of the world once again, as it was in the time of David. 

I believe this is the ONLY way to interpret Daniel - it was written for the Jews and the City (Jerusalem). It is very difficult for folks to try and look at Daniel this way, since they have been taught to view Daniel through the lens of Revelation. And it was almost completed corrupted by the Jesuit priest (Ribera) in the 16th century when he penned the "futurist" theory throwing those Messianic verses in chapter 9 some 2000 years in the future. 

Ok Dougg, the comments mentioned above were cut / paste from the other topic and we can begin. So, even before we open 9:24, do you want to comment on the above (no NT sourcing or referencing. You will be looking at this just as God had made it available to the first century Jews BEFORE His arrival. 

Thanks, Charlie

 

[douggg]

40 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

They were expecting Him to establish His kingdom on the earth, destroy the Romans and Jerusalem would be the center of the world once again, as it was in the time of David. 

At the time of Daniel 9, the Jews were in Babylonian captivity.   The Jews at that time would not have known about the Romans.    The Romans were way into the future.

Therefore, what is the covenant known to Jews at that time, that they would think is the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 ?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by douggg

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

At the time of Daniel 9, the Jews were in Babylonian captivity.   The Jews at that time would not have known about the Romans.    The Romans were way into the future.

Therefore, what is the covenant known to Jews at that time, that they would think is the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 ?

 

 

 

 

 

I thought I mentioned that we would look at this as if we were Jews in the first century before the arrival of the Messiah. The Jews were anticipating the coming Messiah. 
 

You quickly jumped to 9:27 based on what you have been taught. 
 

First, is chapter 9 concerned with the complete restoration of Israel and everything associated with it after the complete destruction of it by the Babylonians?

 

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I thought I mentioned that we would look at this as if we were Jews in the first century before the arrival of the Messiah. The Jews were anticipating the coming Messiah. 
 

You quickly jumped to 9:27 based on what you have been taught. 
 

First, is chapter 9 concerned with the complete restoration of Israel and everything associated with it after the complete destruction of it by the Babylonians?

 

Looking at Daniel 9 from the standpoint of the first century implies taking from New Testament timing.    And I thought we were not going to take any NT sourcing.

I thought we were going to look at Daniel as the Jews would have at the time Daniel was written... instead of fast forwarding into the future.

Also, never mind what you think I was taught - because you don't know what I was taught.

Again, if you were a Jew living at the time of Daniel, and read what he wrote - at the time of Babylonian captivity, what would be the covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years ?

Daniel in the early verses of Daniel 9 had been praying over the Jews breaking the Mt. Sinai covenant. 

So the Jews would have thought the covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years would be what covenant ?

As a Jew back then, from the Tanach, what would you have known about confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years ?

 

Edited January 7 by douggg

[Charlie744]

32 minutes ago, douggg said:

Looking at Daniel 9 from the standpoint of the first century implies taking from New Testament timing.    And I thought we were not going to take any NT sourcing.

I thought we were going to look at Daniel as the Jews would have at the time Daniel was written... instead of fast forwarding into the future.

Also, never mind what you think I was taught - because you don't know what I was taught.

Again, if you were a Jew living at the time of Daniel, and read what he wrote - at the time of Babylonian captivity, what would be the covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years ?

Daniel in the early verses of Daniel 9 had been praying over the Jews breaking the Mt. Sinai covenant. 

So the Jews would have thought the covenant in Daniel 9:27 to be confirmed for 7 years would be what covenant ?

As a Jew back then, from the Tanach, what would you have known about confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years ?

 

Sorry Dougg, I don’t think this is going to work. 
 

[douggg]

53 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Sorry Dougg, I don’t think this is going to work. 
 

It won't work, if you source from the NT.

The answer to the question of what the Jews of Daniel's generation would have thought is the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Their rationale would be that Daniel had prayed regarding that covenant and the Jews of that generation knew about Deuteronomy 31:9-13 which has the for 7 years in it, and pertains to the Mt. Sinai covenant.

-------------------------------

So the next question is, what would have that generation of Daniel, would have thought about when Daniel in verse 21 first had an enounter with Gabriel ?

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Edited January 7 by douggg

[douggg]

On 1/7/2024 at 3:32 AM, douggg said:

So the next question is, what would have that generation of Daniel, would have thought about when Daniel in verse 21 first had an enounter with Gabriel ?

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Well, Charlie, it looks like you are not going to respond, so I will answer the question.

Jews at the time of Daniel would have thought that Daniel was talking about when he first encounter Gabriel in Daniel 8, who informed Daniel that the prophecies and transgression of desolation vision involving the little horn are time of the end.

The reason that is important to know is because when Gabriel begins to expand on the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:23-24, Gabriel says...

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

------------------------------------

So Jews back in Daniel's day would know that the vision is the 2300 day long vision involving the daily sacrifice, it being stopped, and the transgression of desolation.

So Jews back in Daniel's time could that reason that the stopping of the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 would be a time of the end event, involving the little horn person.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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Since in Daniel 9:26, it indicates the prince who shall come is the one who will confirm the Mt Sinai covenant for 7 years, the Jews of Daniel's time could reason that person to be acting in a King of Israel role, based on what they knew about Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

And since the Jews of Daniel's time could read about the little horn in Daniel 8, they could know that person, at the time of the end, will come from north and west of Israel, according to Daniel 8:9.

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Putting it all together, the Jews of Daniel's time could know at the time the end, the little horn person will come from north and west of Israel, and then becomes the King of Israel, and he then confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, and then in the midst of the seven years he stops the daily sacrifice, and commits the transgression of desolation.

And since Daniel 9:27 also includes spreading of abominations of desolation, the Jews of Daniel's time could know that the setting up of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 will take place.     And that the 1290 days and 1335 days take place within the 70th week.

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by douggg

[Eternally Gratefull]

If we are going to look at daniel 9. We need to look at context.

1. Israel was slaves of Babylon. Its city and sanctuary were destroyed in accordance with Lev 26 and the prophecy of Jeremiah

2. Daniels prayer was based on lev 26.

⁸ “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. ⁹ To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. ¹⁰ We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. ¹¹ Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. ¹² And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

¹³ “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. ¹⁴ Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. ¹⁵ And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

3. Lev 26 says that God will destroy their city and sanctuary, he will disperse them throughout all the world. and their land will be inhabited by Gentiles..

4. But even after this, lev 26 says if they will repent, confess their sins and the sins of the fathers. and admit that God did this because of their sins. he will remember the land and the promise.

 

This is the basis for which the whole chapter is set up. And the response From Gabriel is based on this..

[douggg]

9 hours ago, Eternally Gratefull said:

If we are going to look at daniel 9. We need to look at context.

1. Israel was slaves of Babylon. Its city and sanctuary were destroyed in accordance with Lev 26 and the prophecy of Jeremiah

2. Daniels prayer was based on lev 26.

⁸ “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. ⁹ To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. ¹⁰ We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. ¹¹ Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. ¹² And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

¹³ “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. ¹⁴ Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. ¹⁵ And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

3. Lev 26 says that God will destroy their city and sanctuary, he will disperse them throughout all the world. and their land will be inhabited by Gentiles..

4. But even after this, lev 26 says if they will repent, confess their sins and the sins of the fathers. and admit that God did this because of their sins. he will remember the land and the promise.

 

This is the basis for which the whole chapter is set up. And the response From Gabriel is based on this..

Could you post the verses in Leviticus 26 that apply ?

Uh, never mind,  I read through the whole chapter, and the see basis to what happen to the Jews going into Babylonian captivity..

 

Edited January 10 by douggg

[douggg]

9 hours ago, Eternally Gratefull said:

This is the basis for which the whole chapter is set up. And the response From Gabriel is based on this..

In part.   In Daniel 9:24, Gabriel informed Daniel other things that will happen in 70 weeks as well.   Such as, the fulfillment of the vision Daniel had in Daniel 8 about the little horn's transgression of desolation to take place at the time of the end.