Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

We were talking about how the content of Daniel 9 would have been understood by a Jew, without any sourcing from the NT.

But if you want to tie Daniel 2 to Daniel 9, as to how a Jew would have understood Daniel 9 without any sourcing from the NT, go ahead.

Nebuchadnezzar was the king at the time of Daniel 9 was written by Daniel.

 

 

 

Doug, depending on whether your understanding (not specific interpretations of each verse) of Daniel, it might be appropriate to begin with chapter 2- big picture first. Then, if there are major differences in chapter 2 (big picture) we can drill down to learn each others basis (verses) for our interpretations. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Doug, depending on whether your understanding (not specific interpretations of each verse) of Daniel, it might be appropriate to begin with chapter 2- big picture first. Then, if there are major differences in chapter 2 (big picture) we can drill down to learn each others basis (verses) for our interpretations. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

The big picture of Daniel 2 is God of heaven is going to setup an everlasting kingdom... that will break all of the kingdoms represented by the statue image makeup.   verse 44.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

This covenant (existing covenant) will be made stronger, better by the cross and He, not “he” (whoever one inserts a name here) is the Messiah- this was His God given mission (9:24) AND He will fulfill and complete His mission DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy. 

You are sourcing from the NT.

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And the 9:27 prophecy is NOT A 7 year covenant sent some 2000 years in the future- makes absolutely no sense and does not agree with any of the verses (9:25-27) that speaks entirely to this restoration

Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks includes " and to seal up the vision and prophecy "

The vision is the time of the end vision Daniel was given about the little horn person of Daniel 8.    

Prophecy would include prophecies made in Daniel 12:11-12, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination of desolation, at the time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

As far as being 2000 years into the future, that is not something a Jew living back at the time of Daniel could know.    

But the Jew would know that that the prince who shall come will be the little horn person, because the little horn person in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice and causes desolation- the same as in Daniel 9:27.

There is nothing in Daniel 9:27, that it is the messiah who stops the daily sacrifice.

Edited January 12 by douggg

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

You are sourcing from the NT.

Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks includes " and to seal up the vision and prophecy "

The vision is the time of the end vision Daniel was given about the little horn person of Daniel 8.    

Prophecy would include prophecies made in Daniel 12:11-12, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination of desolation, at the time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

As far as being 2000 years into the future, that is not something a Jew living back at the time of Daniel could know.    

But the Jew would know that that the prince who shall come will be the little horn person, because the little horn person in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice and causes desolation- the same as in Daniel 9:27.

There is nothing in Daniel 9:27, that it is the messiah who stops the daily sacrifice.

Oh boy! Houston, we have a problem!

I saw you mentioned that I was sourcing from the NT… no I was not but I can understand how you might think that. 
 

I will have to respond to your replies a little later on .. but I have to say (again) how anyone can possibly not find the Messiah in this verses. 
 

God is not prophesying about some mythical anti- Christ figure conjured up and promoted by the little horn of Daniel. 
 

I believe it is important to begin in chapter 2 first.

I’ll be back..

 

[douggg]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I will have to respond to your replies a little later on .. but I have to say (again) how anyone can possibly not find the Messiah in this verses. 

The messiah is cutoff in verse 26.   So he is not available for verse 27.    The person who is available is the prince who shall come.

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

The big picture of Daniel 2 is God of heaven is going to setup an everlasting kingdom... that will break all of the kingdoms represented by the statue image makeup.   verse 44.

I agree with you but let me ask a question. Did Jesus set up His Kingdom (spiritually not physically) at His first coming?

 

[Charlie744]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

You are sourcing from the NT.

I don’t understand this comment. 

20 hours ago, douggg said:

Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks includes " and to seal up the vision and prophecy "

The vision is the time of the end vision Daniel was given about the little horn person of Daniel 8.    
 

I believe I addressed this to you a few days ago. Although the English word “vision” is used 9 times in Daniel 8, they can mean two very different time periods. The “vision” (Chazon) definitely means the end of time. The “vision” (Mareh) represents the 2300 evenings and mornings time period (last week within Daniel’s 70 weeks of years prophecy). And the “prophecy” that is sealed (sealed up because it is only meant to be read, studied, understood, and relevant TO THE JEWS ONLY. 
 

The Jews at the time of the chapter 8 vision were still in Babylon and Daniel was NOT told to write it down as he was instructed to immediately write down chapter 7 two years earlier. Chapter 8 is for the Jews when they return to Jerusalem and is why it is written in Hebrew. 

 

20 hours ago, douggg said:

Prophecy would include prophecies made in Daniel 12:11-12, the stopping of the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination of desolation, at the time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

I don’t believe this at all. First, the Messiah fulfilled ALL 6 requirements (9:24) st His first coming. As a result of His sacrifice on the cross, He eliminated any further need for the animal sacrifices. There was no longer a need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the ceremonies found in Leviticus. They were a type and shadow of the coming Messiah. Their God given mission was now fulfilled and complete. 
 

Now, I am going to mention something that is one of the most important interpretations in my recent book on the of Daniel. EVERY commentator ties or tries to connect the meaning of the AOD (Abomination that CAUSES desolation) to the destruction of a PHYSICAL item (Temple, etc.). But that is not what is meant here. 
 

As a result of the cross, ALL the physical elements were already fulfilled and done away with.. their purpose and significance were no longer needed. The destruction of the Temple was no longer an important in God’s plan of salvation- its destruction would have no consequences to man’s salvation. It would not cause anything to happen. 
 

So, what is of such importance and magnitude for God to define an event as an “Abomination” and one that will cause “desolation”?

There is ONLY ONE event in the history of mankind that could rise to this most significant and horrific cause of “desolation.” It is the Cross! The abomination that the Jews participated in was their rejection of their Messiah and His crucifixion. This horrific event will CAUSE God to remove Himself from the presence of His people (Jews). He will become completely “desolate” from them. They will no longer have access to their God. There can be no form of desolation greater than this - by their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah. They will be made desolate UNTIL they are heard saying, “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” 
 

This will ONLY happen when He removes the blindness from their eyes and they preach the Gospel for the final 3.5 years— and that will bring in the Messiah. 
 

Now, to jump ahead a little bit. Once you understand (if you accept it) the AOD is the Cross, it will be somewhat easier to accurately interpret the 1290 and 1335 days prophecy in chapter 12. 

 

 

20 hours ago, douggg said:

As far as being 2000 years into the future, that is not something a Jew living back at the time of Daniel could know.    
 

Agree, the Jews were expecting their Messiah to soon arrive so there would no longer be any time consideration. Everything would have ended and they would be with their God. So, if we were alive at the time right before the coming Messiah, not one of our interpretations (whether they were accurate or completely off the wall) would have any thought or given any consideration to a time period later than when their Messiah would arrive. 

20 hours ago, douggg said:

But the Jew would know that that the prince who shall come will be the little horn person, because the little horn person in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice and causes desolation- the same as in Daniel 9:27.

Again, this is not how I interpret Daniel. It is the sacrifice on the cross that stops the daily! It is the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah that will cause them to be completed made “desolate” from their God - almost 2000 years so far!

20 hours ago, douggg said:

There is nothing in Daniel 9:27, that it is the messiah who stops the daily sacrifice.

Verse 9:27b tells us His sacrifice on the cross will bring an end to the sacrifice and offering. Remember, this is ALL speaking about the Messiah and His God given mission. His perfect sacrifice will eliminate the need for the animal sacrifices and the other Levitical ceremonies practiced by the Jews. They (daily) are made void or unnecessary… now, by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus are our sins no longer seen by God. 

Also, this is exactly what is meant in 8:13-14. The sanctuary will be cleansed in 2300 days. This means His sacrifice would remove all sin from the sanctuary. WITHIN the 2520 days of the last week in Daniel’s 70 weeks of years prophecy, the Messiah would do away with sin, the need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the ceremonies, the animal sacrifices, the offerings, etc. This represents the short term vision (Mareh vision) of 2300 days that is found  WITHIN the last week (7 years) of the prophecy. The Mareh vision is found WITHIN the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy and the 70 weeks of years prophecy is found WITHIN the long term vision (Chazon vision) that began in 457 BC and will end at His second coming. 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree with you but let me ask a question. Did Jesus set up His Kingdom (spiritually not physically) at His first coming?

 

Here on earth, begun spiritually, as the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the world.

[douggg]

35 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t understand this comment. 

Charlie, here is what you wrote.   I highlight in red - of you sourcing from the NT because the cross is not found in Daniel 9:26, as being how the messiah is cutoff.

"This covenant (existing covenant) will be made stronger, better by the cross and He, not “he” (whoever one inserts a name here) is the Messiah- this was His God given mission (9:24) AND He will fulfill and complete His mission DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy." 

 

[douggg]

42 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

The Jews at the time of the chapter 8 vision were still in Babylon and Daniel was NOT told to write it down as he was instructed to immediately write down chapter 7 two years earlier. Chapter 8 is for the Jews when they return to Jerusalem and is why it is written in Hebrew. 

Daniel was in Babylon when he departed this world.   All of his writing before then.

So the Jews still in the Babylon captivity after Daniel departed this world would have had access to what wrote in Daniel 8, regarding the time of end vision of the little horn and him stop the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate.