douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 49 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: I don’t believe this at all. First, the Messiah fulfilled ALL 6 requirements (9:24) st His first coming. As a result of His sacrifice on the cross, He eliminated any further need for the animal sacrifices. There was no longer a need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the ceremonies found in Leviticus. They were a type and shadow of the coming Messiah. Their God given mission was now fulfilled and complete. Charlie, you are sourcing the NT. The cross is not in the text of Daniel 9:26 about the messiah cutoff. In Daniel 9:24, "and to seal up the vision and prophecy". Jesus did not fulfill that part of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming. Because the vision is not about Jesus, but the little horn, the prince who shall come, who will stop the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate. 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. the matter - the coming to the end of the Babylonian captivity. (Daniel 9:2) the vision - the vision when Daniel first encountered Gabriel, in Daniel 8 about the time of end little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Now, to jump ahead a little bit. Once you understand (if you accept it) the AOD is the Cross, it will be somewhat easier to accurately interpret the 1290 and 1335 days prophecy in chapter 12. Daniel 12:11-12 is time the end. Daniel 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Again, this is not how I interpret Daniel. It is the sacrifice on the cross that stops the daily! It is the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah that will cause them to be completed made “desolate” from their God - almost 2000 years so far! Jesus did not make the temple desolate, because sacrifices continued after His death and resurrection. And Jesus did not do abominations to make the temple desolate. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 is still unfulfilled, pending the arrival of the little horn, the prince who shall come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted January 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,685 Content Per Day: 1.71 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted January 13 12 minutes ago, douggg said: Charlie, here is what you wrote. I highlight in red - of you sourcing from the NT because the cross is not found in Daniel 9:26, as being how the messiah is cutoff. "This covenant (existing covenant) will be made stronger, better by the cross and He, not “he” (whoever one inserts a name here) is the Messiah- this was His God given mission (9:24) AND He will fulfill and complete His mission DURING the last 7 years of the prophecy." Of course the cross is found within 9:24-27… chapter 9 is all about the cross and the restoration of the Jews, Zthe Temple, the Sanctuary, etc., It is DURING the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy that the Messiah will be baptized an anointed by God in the Jordan. This begins His ministry. DURING this final week, He will accomplish all 6 of His requirements (9:24). Who do you think the Scriptures are written about? The entire OT and Daniel’s earlier chapters speak of the coming Messiah. He reveals and then fulfills His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind to get back into the Garden. And we can only be with Him by the cross. This is not a history book! God will reveal His plan of salvation THROUGH His Word in the OT books, and in Daniel, He will specifically reveal His plan and first coming THROUGH the final 4 kingdoms. Meaning, WITHIN the book of Danie, HE will reveal His Messianic prophecies… He is not writing about some mythical anti-Christ figure conjured up by the little horn in the 16th century. Who could possibly predict the coming of the Messiah EXACTLY at the beginning of the 70th week, reveal His 6 fold mission to save mankind from destruction, do away with the Levitical system, predict His crucifixion (cut off) exactly 3.5 years into the middle of the last week (in the midst of the week), confirm the Covenant mentioned by Jeremiah, on and on and on ! You simply can not take a few of the verses WITHIN 9:24-27, that provide the details of the coming Messiah during the last week of the prophecy and think to assign them or attribute them to someone else- no matter who they are. These verses are seamless and cannot be carved up and displaced by some evil one for their own gain! As I asked you a few times, if you don’t believe the book of Daniel and especially the verses in chapter 9 speak to the coming Messiah and His cross, His plan of salvation for mankind, then the we will never agree on the purpose for God providing us with His Word in the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Charlie744 said: Also, this is exactly what is meant in 8:13-14. The sanctuary will be cleansed in 2300 days. This means His sacrifice would remove all sin from the sanctuary. WITHIN the 2520 days of the last week in Daniel’s 70 weeks of years prophecy, the Messiah would do away with sin, the need for the Temple, the Sanctuary, the ceremonies, the animal sacrifices, the offerings, etc. This represents the short term vision (Mareh vision) of 2300 days that is found WITHIN the last week (7 years) of the prophecy. The Mareh vision is found WITHIN the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy and the 70 weeks of years prophecy is found WITHIN the long term vision (Chazon vision) that began in 457 BC and will end at His second coming. The transgression of desolation will be by the little horn, not Jesus. The 2300 days as associated with the little horn is time of the end. The cleansing of the temple complex will be when Jesus returns. He will cast the little horn person who will have become the beast-king of Revelation 13 into the lake of fire, along with the false prophet. And the statue image of the beast-king turned to ashes. And Satan exposed and cast into the bottomless pit. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted January 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,685 Content Per Day: 1.71 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted January 13 27 minutes ago, douggg said: Daniel was in Babylon when he departed this world. All of his writing before then. So the Jews still in the Babylon captivity after Daniel departed this world would have had access to what wrote in Daniel 8, regarding the time of end vision of the little horn and him stop the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate. No, unequivocally no! Where do you find that? How did you learn that? What tells you that? Certaintly, ALL 12 chapters had to be written before his death in Babylon. And they all were available to his people BEFORE they returned to Jerusalem. But they were not written in order, they were not written in the same language, and they were not available to the Jews DURING their time in Babylon. I will be looking forward to learning how you can make these claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: Of course the cross is found within 9:24-27… chapter 9 is all about the cross and the restoration of the Jews, Zthe Temple, the Sanctuary, etc., The word "cross" is not found anywhere in Daniel 9:24-27. You are referring to the cross becaus you are sourcing from the NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted January 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,685 Content Per Day: 1.71 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted January 13 19 minutes ago, douggg said: Charlie, you are sourcing the NT. The cross is not in the text of Daniel 9:26 about the messiah cutoff. In Daniel 9:24, "and to seal up the vision and prophecy". Jesus did not fulfill that part of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming. Because the vision is not about Jesus, but the little horn, the prince who shall come, who will stop the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate. 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. the matter - the coming to the end of the Babylonian captivity. (Daniel 9:2) the vision - the vision when Daniel first encountered Gabriel, in Daniel 8 about the time of end little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate. I have already responded to these issues in detail and it is clear you have no interest in giving them much thought. You continue to repeat the same interpretations but do not offer any basis for them. You simply state your conclusions- no support or evidence revealing WHY you believe the verses do or do not speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted January 13 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,685 Content Per Day: 1.71 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted January 13 51 minutes ago, douggg said: Here on earth, begun spiritually, as the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the world. I agree but then why did you respond (22 hours ago), that God WILL set us His kingdom— He already did at His first coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted January 13 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13 5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: Certaintly, ALL 12 chapters had to be written before his death in Babylon. And they all were available to his people BEFORE they returned to Jerusalem. I agree. And all 12 chapters, include chapter 8. 6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: But they were not written in order, they were not written in the same language, and they were not available to the Jews DURING their time in Babylon. I will be looking forward to learning how you can make these claims. You seem to be contradicting yourself, Charlie. Either Daniel's writings, all twelve chapters, were available to Jews during their time in Babylon or they would not have been. Are you saying some of the chapters were hidden from the Jews while they and Daniel were in Babylon ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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