Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[douggg]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I have already responded to these issues in detail and it is clear you have no interest in giving them much thought. You continue to repeat the same interpretations but do not offer any basis for them. You simply state your conclusions- no support or evidence revealing WHY you believe the verses do or do not speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation. 

I have given plenty of evidence and support from the scripture themselves.   Did Jesus do overspreading of abominations to make the temple desolate ?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Here on earth, begun spiritually, as the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to the world.

I agree, but why did you respond 22 hours ago telling me He WILL set up His kingdom - verse 44?

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

I have given plenty of evidence and support from the scripture themselves.   Did Jesus do overspreading of abominations to make the temple desolate ?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

I already addressed this IN DETAIL recently. You have completely ignored it or attempted to ask any questions about the verses. You continue to repeat your conclusions. 

[Charlie744]

37 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, you are sourcing the NT.   The cross is not in the text of Daniel 9:26 about the messiah cutoff.

In Daniel 9:24,  "and to seal up the vision and prophecy".   Jesus did not fulfill that part of Daniel 9:24 at his first coming.

Because the vision is not about Jesus, but the little horn, the prince who shall come, who will stop the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

the matter - the coming to the end of the Babylonian captivity. (Daniel 9:2)

the vision - the vision when Daniel first encountered Gabriel, in Daniel 8 about the time of end little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and making the temple desolate.

I have already addressed this in detail- you obviously look at it quickly because you are already going to respond with the repeated conclusions of yours that have no basis. 
 

Sorry Doug, I cannot do this anymore. 

[douggg]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree, but why did you respond 22 hours ago telling me He WILL set up His kingdom - verse 44?

You asked a different question.

[douggg]

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I already addressed this IN DETAIL recently. You have completely ignored it or attempted to ask any questions about the verses. You continue to repeat your conclusions. 

Charlie, it is a simple "yes" or "no" to the question.

 

Did Jesus do overspreading of abominations to make the temple desolate ?  "Yes" or "No".

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, it is a simple "yes" or "no" to the question.

 

Did Jesus do overspreading of abominations to make the temple desolate ?  "Yes" or "No".

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Doug, I am sorry but we are done with this. Best wishes!

[CaptWalker]

I realize this is kind of a worn out discussion but just thought i would add one more thing in case it hasnt yet been brought up in much detail. The Hebrew word for "cut off" literally does mean that but also was translated as "covenant" in other places. So then i'm not sure if there is a definite connection between verses 26 and 27 or if its just a strange coincidence?

In other words you could say that when Anti-Christ confirms the covenant/cutting off of Messiah, it is basically an agreement that the original Abrahamic covenant was/is God's true plan for Israel and the Orthodox Jews will then become a major sect in the Beast system along with all other religions of course. Otherwise the majority of Jews would immediately reject Anti-Christ when he exalts himself even higher than God(Daniel-11:36-37) so there must be some kind of treaty made that will at least initially bring them to his side. But the Messianic Jews in Israel will not be deceived when all is finally said and done.

[Charlie744]

6 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

I realize this is kind of a worn out discussion but just thought i would add one more thing in case it hasnt yet been brought up in much detail. The Hebrew word for "cut off" literally does mean that but also was translated as "covenant" in other places. So then i'm not sure if there is a definite connection between verses 26 and 27 or if its just a strange coincidence?

In other words you could say that when Anti-Christ confirms the covenant/cutting off of Messiah, it is basically an agreement that the original Abrahamic covenant was/is God's true plan for Israel and the Orthodox Jews will then become a major sect in the Beast system along with all other religions of course. Otherwise the majority of Jews would immediately reject Anti-Christ when he exalts himself even higher than God(Daniel-11:36-37) so there must be some kind of treaty made that will at least initially bring them to his side. But the Messianic Jews in Israel will not be deceived when all is finally said and done.

Thank you! The only response I would want to make is that the Scriptures are NOT a series of books written about some mythical anti/Christ figure (my opinion). Every book is given to us by God through some 40 different people and they all speak to God’s plan of salvation to bring us back into the Garden as it was before the fall. 
The book of Daniel is perhaps the most prophetic, messianic book in the entire Bible. And chapter 9 is THE most prophetic, messianic chapter in Daniel. It is ALL about the coming Messiah and the restoration of His people from Babylon. Bit of course, it is an even deeper revelation of His plan to restore ALL mankind to the Garden. 
 

We can easily look in our history books and see how accurate these verses are to the actual events that took place during the 70 weeks of years prophecy. 
 

1) Did not Jesus arrive on the first day of the 70th week to be baptized in the Jordan?

2) Wasn’t He “anointed” by the Father at the same event?

3) Was He literally “cutoff” exactly 3.5 years INTO the last week of the prophecy? (In the “midst” of the week- again, this clearly identifies this is meant to mean He was “there” ( His ministry) began AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS LAST WEEK), AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED WITHIN or DURING THIS FINAL WEEK OF THE PROPHECY?

4) Was it not prophesied that the Messiah would come and CONFIRM the Covenant (Jeremiah)? There is no such covenant or agreement that was prophesied and attributed to a being not mentioned in the Scriptures?

5) Did the Scriptures prophesies in the OT and speak / confirm in the NT, that His death on the cross would remove or do away with any further need of the daily or annual sacrifices and offerings? The Levitical ceremonies, the Temple and the Sanctuary, the first 4 Feast days were ALL now unnecessary- THEIR mission within God’s plan of salvation was done or fulfilled. 
 

6) The “Covenant” was NOT a 7 year covenant but was THE COVENANT (Jeremiah) that would be confirmed during or within these last 7 years of the prophecy. It is not “for” but “within or during.” 
 

7) AOD- The abomination that causes desolation is NOT about a physical Temple or Sanctuary or anything physical that was associated with the Levitical ceremonies or practices. The abomination is the cross. The rejection of His people and their crucifixion of THEIR Messiah is the most horrific and unbelievable event the world could possibly ever witness. Their crucifixion would now be the reason why God would turn away from His people. They would now be made desolate from THEIR God for the next 2000 years. Only when He removes the blindness from their eyes will they once again return to Him and He will receive them. This is ALL about God, not some mythical anti-Christ character that was literally created by the papacy in the 16th century AD. They intentionally selected these important verses within 9:24-27, and redirected / attributed them away fro God. They threw them far into the future for the purpose if refuting they (papacy) were not the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. 
 

But they ARE and they are easily identified as the coming little horn in Daniel 7,8,9,and 11. 
 

8) God is not having Daniel prophesying about an evil being in chapter 9. He is revealing all that He would command His Messiah to fulfill during the last week of His ministry (also, the last week of His life on ).

9) He is “He” not some unidentified “he.” Daniel is writing about His first coming and the God given mission (9:24) He must fulfill BEFORE His ministry ends in the “midst of the last week of / during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. 
 

I certainly understand how almost the entire Christian world (Catholics and Protestants) believe today’s currently accepted interpretations on these verses. The power of the little horn (papacy) was prophesied in Daniel and all of their teachings against God. They have had many, many generations of children they would teach this false teachings to since the late 16th century. If we assume each generation of children are taught every 30 years during the past 400 years, it is easy to understand how their teachings would be embedded in their church members.  Each generation would reinforce this teaching. It would and has become their “Gospel.”

Because I never read the Bible, and especially Daniel, I had no idea what this book was supposed to speak about.  The only thing I knew was the cute stories one hears when they are kids about the lions den and the furnace scene, etc. When I started to study Daniel, I immediately began reading all the accepted interpretations from scholars, academics, theologians, etc., but as I continued through the book I found many of their interpretations were NOT focused or centered on the Messiah, but more on the 4 earthly kingdoms, and how well they could be matched up to our history books. But Daniel is not a history book. God is using these 4 kingdoms to reveal all the events HE DEEMS IMPORTANT that will be used WITHIN HIS plan of salvation. 
 

It is ALL about the coming Messiah and God’s plan of salvation for mankind. There is absolutely nothing in Daniel that speaks to a fictitious anti/Christ figure. 
 

Look for the Messiah within these verses and you will find Him. Daniel is written for the Jews to read, study and prepare for their coming Messiah- and everything in Daniel that was prophesied about Him took place. 
 

Sorry for the long winded response. Charlie.

 

 

 

[CaptWalker]

No problem with the long response, but I was kind of even expecting this discussion was about over especially from your last comment to Dougg, but that’s really none of my business. But one thing I have to point out is what that great author(John) of Revelation pointed out in 1st John-2:18-23, which anyone can look up. But also in 2nd Thess.-2:4, which pretty much confirms(no pun intended) the coming of the “lawless one”, I won’t refer to him in that other term since obviously some here still dont believe he is anything other than some “mythical” figure. But I do believe any one man with that much power would most likely also be mentioned somewhere in the OT, in my opinion. Now regardless of what those verses in Daniel are saying I do believe that what Daniel 12:7 is saying can onl be interpreted for what it is very clearly saying…that there WILL be a final 3 1/2 years where this anti-Christ figure WILL be present…period.

Anyway that is really all that matters in regards to this subject and if anyone wants to keep going back in time to what might have happened even back when Antiochus or whoever was in power then so be it, but to me that only confuses further what is for this present day and age and what we are looking for to come to pass in the FUTURE and not what has already past. Because obviously not everyone agrees on those things but what is to come very SOON is not open to discussion but only to awaiting for it to occur, period.