Daniel's 70 Weeks - WITHOUT ANY NT SOURCING

[douggg]

7 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Wonderful… but this has nothing to do with explaining HOW AND WHY the verses in Daniel give you your conclusions / interpretations. 

Sometimes we need to see and meditate on words of encouragement.

[douggg]

13 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

would ask you to copy a few  verses from chapter 7 (first discussion on the post cross events) - you can easily skip the first 3 kingdoms and pick up those verses that speak to ANY events WITHIN  AND DURING the 4th kingdom only. This way we can address / understand timing of these events as well.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

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the time,times, haft time  at the time of end.    Daniel 12:7-9

 

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

the ten kings and the little horn - time of the end, associated with the fourth kingdom's manifestation in the end times.

 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

------------------------------------------------------

the time,times, haft time  at the time of end.    Daniel 12:7-9

 

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

the ten kings and the little horn - time of the end, associated with the fourth kingdom's manifestation in the end times.

 

If you do not mind, I am going to suggest you back up a little bit… perhaps cut/ paste 7:7-8 and identify the actors, events and the timing within these verses. They all pertain to the kingdom coming after Greece- the 3rd kingdom. 
 

Please also remember, the 4th kingdom in chapter 7 MUST be the same 4th kingdom in chapter 2! Chapter 2 establishes the 4 and only 4 kingdoms THROUGHOUT Daniel. 
 

 

[douggg]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

If you do not mind, I am going to suggest you back up a little bit… perhaps cut/ paste 7:7-8 and identify the actors, events and the timing within these verses. They all pertain to the kingdom coming after Greece- the 3rd kingdom. 
 

Please also remember, the 4th kingdom in chapter 7 MUST be the same 4th kingdom in chapter 2! Chapter 2 establishes the 4 and only 4 kingdoms THROUGHOUT Daniel. 
 

 

The manifestation of the fourth kingdom, the Roman empire, in the end times - which the ten kings and little horn will be associated with.

[Charlie744]

59 minutes ago, douggg said:

The manifestation of the fourth kingdom, the Roman empire, in the end times - which the ten kings and little horn will be associated with.

What tells you they are end time events? 
 

What does the iron in chapter 2 symbolize?

Are you saying the book of Daniel has the 3rd kingdom as Greece and there is no further prophecies after Greece UNTIL the true end times?

Where is the Messiah in all of Daniel?

Where is Rome at the time of the Messiah? 
 

Doug, THIS IS THE EASY PART OF CHAPTER 2 and 7 - the identification of the 4 kingdoms. 
 

You seem to completely skip over any prophecies of the coming Messiah in the early years of the 4th kingdom. Where and when did He arrive and wasn’t it in the early 4th kingdom?

 When did the 4th kingdom of Rome begin?

What do you think 2:41-43 are telling us about the 4th kingdom? 
 

 

 

 

[douggg]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

What tells you they are end time events? 

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7-9.   See my post 4 posts back.

 

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

What does the iron in chapter 2 symbolize?

   Roman empire.

7 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Are you saying the book of Daniel has the 3rd kingdom as Greece and there is no further prophecies after Greece UNTIL the true end times?

Roman empire, the legs of iron.   The Roman empire manifestation in the feet and toes in the end times.

14 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Where is the Messiah in all of Daniel?

 

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff.

In Daniel 7, the one like the Son of man, coming with the clouds heaven to the Ancient of day.   The one like the Son of man then receives the everlasting kingdom. 

19 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

You seem to completely skip over any prophecies of the coming Messiah in the early years of the 4th kingdom. Where and when did He arrive and wasn’t it in the early 4th kingdom?

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff was at the time of the legs of irons.   The Roman empire of the first century.

23 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

When did the 4th kingdom of Rome begin?

In the days following the four break-up kingdoms of the Greek empire.

25 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

What do you think 2:41-43 are telling us about the 4th kingdom? 

That the time of the end manifestation of the Roman empire, parts of it will be weak (the clay) and parts of it will be strong (the iron).    And that the weaker parts will attempt, by inter-marriages to the stronger parts, to gain strength.   

[Charlie744]

57 minutes ago, douggg said:

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7-9.   See my post 4 posts back.

 

   Roman empire.

Roman empire, the legs of iron.   The Roman empire manifestation in the feet and toes in the end times.

 

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff.

In Daniel 7, the one like the Son of man, coming with the clouds heaven to the Ancient of day.   The one like the Son of man then receives the everlasting kingdom. 

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff was at the time of the legs of irons.   The Roman empire of the first century.

In the days following the four break-up kingdoms of the Greek empire.

That the time of the end manifestation of the Roman empire, parts of it will be weak (the clay) and parts of it will be strong (the iron).    And that the weaker parts will attempt, by inter-marriages to the stronger parts, to gain strength.   

Thank you Doug. This is a start but I do believe we are skipping so many verses that tells us the MOST OF DANIEL, certainly chapter 7 and 8 cover the time of the Messiah or just after the cross when His church is born.

Don’t you think it strange that your are finding the book of Daniel (except for your belief that chapter 9 is about the Messiah- which is true) does not have at its primary focus the most important event in the history of mankind - His first coming AND His plan of salvation? NOT END TINES? He plan of salvation for all of mankind is the cross- this is for ALL those who will come after the cross. God is writing about all He will do and all that what will occur after the cross for all the billions of people that will come upon the earth. The end times are just that… it is the time of judgement… God is writing about Jesus for our benefit during the coming 2000 years. 

Anyway, it is too late now, but I would like to pick this back up tomorrow if you will. 
 

In the meantime, I ask if you will tell me what 2:34 means and how 2:41-43 gives the details to determining the timing of 2:34z

Chsoter 2 is the blueprint for Daniel’s 4 kingdoms AND the timing in all the chapters. Get this wrong and MOST of the interpretations are thrown into the future. 

 

[douggg]

Charlie, that song, I rather have Jesus, has a special place for me, nearing the end of my time on earth, whether by death or rapture.    Being blessed to having walked with Jesus for over fifty years, and nearing the end.. and entering the reality of a glorious eternity with Jesus.

Thus, Daniel and other books in the bible for me relate to my relationship to Jesus.   In Him, I am not limited to Jesus's first coming in the book of Daniel so I don't meditate on the book of Daniel being about Jesus's first coming only, but see in it my eternal destiny and the hope the book of Daniel provides.

Since the little horn and the ten kings are time of the end - it is time of the end for everybody.  But time of the beginning for them in Christ who will inherit the kingdom of God which has begun in the souls of them who have been born again of the Spirit, when they received Jesus into their hearts.

I read the book of Daniel, with God in my heart, His love surpassing all understanding.

 

Edited March 4 by douggg

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

In the meantime, I ask if you will tell me what 2:34 means and how 2:41-43 gives the details to determining the timing of 2:34z

 

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:34, is about the kingdom of God when the kingdom of Heaven is brought to earth by Jesus at His Second Coming, smashing the feet of the image, toppling it, breaking it into pieces to become dust in the wind.

And the kingdom of God filling the whole earth for the millennial reign of Jesus on this earth.

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7-9.   See my post 4 posts back.

 

   Roman empire.

Roman empire, the legs of iron.   The Roman empire manifestation in the feet and toes in the end times.

 

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff.

In Daniel 7, the one like the Son of man, coming with the clouds heaven to the Ancient of day.   The one like the Son of man then receives the everlasting kingdom. 

In Daniel 9:26, the messiah cutoff was at the time of the legs of irons.   The Roman empire of the first century.

In the days following the four break-up kingdoms of the Greek empire.

That the time of the end manifestation of the Roman empire, parts of it will be weak (the clay) and parts of it will be strong (the iron).    And that the weaker parts will attempt, by inter-marriages to the stronger parts, to gain strength.   

Well, to determine when 2:34 and 2:35 take place you will have to answer or interpret 2:41-44. 
 
There are two sections in chapter 2 that are very different. There is the “Dream sequence verses” which provide the “big picture.” Then there is the “interpretation sequence verses” which are the “details” for the events that occur within the “dream sequence verses.”

For example, the “dream sequence verses” provide or establish the 4 and only 4 kingdoms in the metal man image. Then, it provides the 2 and only 2 actions or events in the “dream sequence verses.” That is it.

Then, Daniel is given a series of “interpretation sequence verses” that reveal what will take place as a direct result of the “actions” previously identified in the “Dream sequence verses.” 
 

Meaning, these verses are not simply a recording of events in chronological order. It is like this in most of Daniel’s Hebrew chapters. It is a repeat and enlarge type of presentation. 
 

Without understanding these presentation, we will find today’s accepted interpretations are based on throwing most of Daniel’s verses in the Hebrew chapters into the future because they make no sense by looking at them in a chronological order (also, they can not be matched to actors or events within our history books, thus, they MUST be still future events. 
 

It was IMPOSSIBLE for me to make any sense out of 2:41-43 AND the 4th kingdom verses in chapters 7 and 8 until this pattern was uncovered. Everyone simply determined (not interpreted) that they must be end time prophecies, and offer very general statements just like you have made above.

The key to chapter 2, which unlocks chapters 7,8,9 and 11, is 2:34. 
 

If 2:34 is equal to 2:35 (both treated as end time events) then you will generally have two and only two major periods being interpreted: those ending at the 3rd kingdom period and then almost everything thrown into the end times.

It was only when I asked the question- where then does Daniel speak of the most important events in the history of mankind? Is only chapter 9 being given to prophesied about the Messiah? Isn’t there or shouldn’t Daniel be speaking more on His plan of salvation for the returning Jews to Jerusalem AND for His overall plan of salvation for mankind?

Does it make any sense that God is not revealing the most important events to the Jews at the time of His first coming, AND the direct effects after the cross as opposed to having the most prophetic verses in the OT ONLY SPEAK TO THE LADY DAYS? No!!! The last days are the last days! 
 

God has given us a detailed picture of what will take place from 606 BC to ~500 AD (arrival of the little horn) who will continue UNTIL the end of times. 
 

He is telling us what WILL take place so we are prepared and can make the choice to accept Him or the false teachings of the little horn.

GOD TELLS US IN ADVANCE OF WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE- NOT AFTER THEY TAKE PLACE (end times). Then, things have already occurred- it is judgement time. 
 

Unless you are willing to consider / study / accept that God wants us to see what WILL take place in Daniel’s verses BEFORE the end times, then most of His prophetic verses will be lost. 
 
I could not interpret chapters 7,8,9 or 11 UNTIL chapter 2 was properly interpreted- it never made any sense and the holes that I left in these chapters could not be completed until I realized/ interpreted chapter 2. It took no less than 7 months to come back and forth between chapters 2, 7 and 8 over a gazillion times to try and eventually find they speak the same story. Chapter 2 is His blueprint and it was / is so, so difficult to understand. 
 

So, since I have already been through this, I would ask you to consider 2:34 as His first coming. This is the ONLY way you can interpret 2:41-44 and later chapters 7 and 8. 
 If you are not willing to try and interpret chapter 2 this way, then I will continue to throw most of Daniel into the future and only be able to make the general comments you have made about 2:41-44 above.- they offer no understanding of these verses given to us by God. He does not give us “general” theories or prophecies. 
 

Let me know if you are willing to put in the work… so far, I have offered to walk through chapter 2 verses with at least 3 other folks in this forum and they all declined.. they were happy with their accepting they speak to the end times.