Why was Satan allowed to contaminate the new and perfect creation?

[choir loft]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:04 AM, AdHoc said:

It would seem that Satan was created to be mediator between angels and God. The phrase " Cherub that covers" (Ezek.28:14) alludes to the Cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant where God met man. Thus, as a creature he would have had the most prestigious position besides Christ. Some students of the Bible do not think that Satan is meant in Ezekiel 28, but the evidence is compelling as no man fits it either.

Eventually, Jesus takes this position as Mediator. Most probably Satan learned of this and it prompted his rebellion. "Covering Cherub" is just about the highest a creature can go. The High Priest may go in unto God's presence, in danger, once a year. The Cherubs dwelt there 365 days a year.

Where do you get the interpretation that Lucifer was created as a mediator between angels and God?

Not quite.  Not even close.

In fact, the imagery is intended to suggest two angels (Gabriel & Lucifer) were mediators between God and man inasmuch as they were characterized as guarding the Mercy Seat, which in turn guarded the Ark.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE MERCY SEAT REPRESENTED?

The Ark of the Covenant was an open topped box.  Inside the box was kept the tablets of the LAW which God gave to Israel by the hand of Moses (*).  It follows also that the same LAW applies to non-Jews as well.

The purpose of the LAW is to convict of SIN.  The purpose of the LAW is to warn us all that the wrath of God is revealed unto us.....unto all SINNERS....meaning everybody....meaning we are all in a lot of trouble with God.

Let's go back a few years to a popular Hollywood movie RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.    In one of the final scenes, the ark is opened.  That which was revealed inside broke out and destroyed everyone in the vicinity.  It destroyed everyone EXCEPT Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood.  Do you remember what Jones told Marion just before the lid was removed from the ark?  He told her to NOT look at it. In the minds of Hollywood writers one wouldn't be destroyed by the LAW if one didn't look at it.

Unfortunately God's LAW cannot be easily swept away by simply not looking.  That's why there's a lid on the box...on the ark.

As the Ark itself symbolizes God's LAW and His wrath poured out upon SINNERS, so too does the lid of the ark symbolize God's Mercy ... so as to confine His wrath.  

The lid of the ark is therefore also called THE MERCY SEAT.   It is God's mercy that restrains Him from putting an end to every living man and woman on planet earth.

Thus we see that although the LAW of God defines SIN and its consequences (death) it is also promising mercy to those who approach God and seek Him.  In other words, there is hope for the SINNER who REPENTS......by the LAW.

Lucifer became enamored of its own importance in the scheme of things...so the story goes....and attempted to usurp the throne of God for itself.  Thus abandoning mercy for itself it fell from grace where it will ultimately suffer death according to the LAW.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

(*) "by the hand of Moses" is a phrase used during every Jewish worship service prior to the procession of the Torah scroll among the assembled congregation. The phrase is meant to remind the faithful how the LAW of God was passed to us.  As Torah is moved among the congregation each person kisses it.  Kissing the Torah scroll is a way of demonstrating a personal love of God's LAW. (Something the church hates.) The Torah scroll consists of the first 5 books of the Bible written by hand on animal skin....symbolizing God's LAW written on flesh....on the flesh of a lamb.  This is what Jesus, the lamb of God, meant when He said He was THE WAY and the TRUTH that leads to LIFE.  

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, choir loft said:

Where do you get the interpretation that Lucifer was created as a mediator between angels and God?

Not quite.  Not even close.

In fact, the imagery is intended to suggest two angels (Gabriel & Lucifer) were mediators between God and man inasmuch as they were characterized as guarding the Mercy Seat, which in turn guarded the Ark.

You unwittingly agreed with me. The Cherubim "guarded" the Mercy Seat. But the word used by scripture is "COVERED" (Ex.25:20, 37:9, 1st Ki.5:7, 1 Chrn.18:18, 2nd Chrn.5.8) - the same word in Ezekiel 28 for Lucifer being the Covering Cherub. Since men do not normally have access to heaven, never mind the Tabernacle of heaven, it stands to reason that Lucifer was a "guard" of God's holiness, especially as he was authorized to walk God's "HOLY" mountain among angels. Job 38 puts the angels as rejoicing when the foundations of earth were laid. This would put the angels as created long before man and God would have needed a Covering Cherub long before the earth was created. But the "guarding" Cherub had to let the High priest past, thus making him a "mediator".

Besides this, the Law was "ordained" by angels (Gal.3:19). The root word for "ordained" is "through". Maybe you haven't seen the function for Cherubim, but I'm sure you can see that "Not quite. Not even close" is because you didn't know it. But maybe you can give us the reason why Cherubs appeared, and had a duty in Eden, in Ezekiel and in Revelation. There, the common theme is judgment - a little off your theory of "mercy" ... or not?

Your statement that the Tablets of Law in the Ark was to show that they applied to the Nations is without foundation. It was called The Ark of the Covenant, and the Covenant was made with Israel alone. But if you would like to defend your point, maybe you can add in the budding rod of Aaron and the hidden manna.

Finally, did you know that in that Law you promote for all men, it says that you shall not bear false witness. But you have put words in our brother @Vine Abider's mouth that he did not say. I wonder what the other readers think of that?

[Vine Abider]

On 2/15/2024 at 8:33 AM, choir loft said:

Nowhere does scripture EXPLICITLY state or imply that the devil is part of the redemptive process.....of saving people from SIN.

If the house of satan is divided against itself it cannot stand.  (Jesus)

Everywhere in the context of the Bible is stated the intention and work of the Ruach ha-Kodesh, Holy Spirit, to convict of SIN by the LAW of Moses and to glorify the Son of Man - Jesus Christ.  The devil has no part in it whatsoever.

It is a sad reflection of the post-modern church that its adherents devote more attention to the machinations of the devil (the opposer, the usurper, the thief, the murderer and the LIAR) than they do to the gentle ministrations of God's own spirit.  Therein lies the core of deceit illogic and betrayal of the gospel of Christ in our churches today.  Church types know not (or very little) of their own religion.  It's a stain and a joke upon everyone who maintains membership and a clear evidence of its debauchery to everyone outside of it.

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “’Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; (Revelation 18:4)

If the purpose and work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men and women is to destroy the works of satan, how then does the devil play a role in its own destruction?  The answer, according to Jesus, is that it doesn't.....for the devil cannot and will not participate in the destruction of its own kingdom - by reason of the redemption of mankind.  

To claim that the devil is part of the redemptive process is to place undeserved attention upon something that's blatantly untrue.  Attempts to do so GLORIFY SATAN.

It's better to leave the post-modern church than to yield to its political correctness, its heresy, its hypocrisy, its hubris, its Gay Agenda, its humanism and its almost total rejection of Jesus Christ and His Holy Word (*).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   (Isaiah 6:9-10)

(*) Several major denominations have already done so.  Specifically they are; the Episcopal church, the Presbyterian church, the Roman Catholic church and the Methodist church.  Non-denominational churches are guilty of misrepresenting and manipulating their members for purposes of ministerial aggrandizement.   Few, very few, congregations are led by shepherds that are interested in spiritual edification (education and/or encouragement).  Statistics, as well as statements and votes approved during national conventions, prove these assertions to be true.  

Well, maybe not in these words per se, but what about the example of Job we are given?  The devil was used by God, and God permitted him to do certain things to Job.

Even now, "all things (including the devil) work to the good for us who love God and are called to purpose." (Greek)  Doesn't that include helping the work of God as it pertains to us?

[Littlelambseativy]

On 2/11/2024 at 11:04 AM, AdHoc said:

It would seem that Satan was created to be mediator between angels and God. The phrase " Cherub that covers" (Ezek.28:14) alludes to the Cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant where God met man. Thus, as a creature he would have had the most prestigious position besides Christ. Some students of the Bible do not think that Satan is meant in Ezekiel 28, but the evidence is compelling as no man fits it either.

Eventually, Jesus takes this position as Mediator. Most probably Satan learned of this and it prompted his rebellion. "Covering Cherub" is just about the highest a creature can go. The High Priest may go in unto God's presence, in danger, once a year. The Cherubs dwelt there 365 days a year.

Where do you see Lucifer as mediator? He was part of the morning stars who sang in heaven…he was created with timbrels and pipes to possibly lead the singing. Pipes are like flutes and timbrel is like a tambourine. Job 38. He was a cherub who was near the throne singing or leading the heavenly choir. He was most beautiful and adorned with all the gems. But mediator? 

[AdHoc]

14 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Where do you see Lucifer as mediator? He was part of the morning stars who sang in heaven…he was created with timbrels and pipes to possibly lead the singing. Pipes are like flutes and timbrel is like a tambourine. Job 38. He was a cherub who was near the throne singing or leading the heavenly choir. He was most beautiful and adorned with all the gems. But mediator? 

I see it in the word "Covering". God met with man on the Mercy Seat - the top of the box that made up the Ark of the Covenant. Because God is so holy, He, as uncreated cannot have direct dealings with that which was created (Ps.113:6). So also with Israel. Though they were set aside fr His purpose and a chosen Nation, any man except the High Priest who went near the Mercy Seat would be killed. To "guard" the access to the Mercy Seat were two Cherubim with wings outstretched to "Cover" the Mercy Seat. To meet God, you had to be approved by the Cherubim. They either let you pass or stopped you.

Now, this all is a picture, or Type of our Mediator - Jesus Christ. The Veil of the Tabernacle/Temple is torn from top to bottom, so we may enter the "Throne room" boldly. But not without our High Pries - Jesus. He is our MEDIATOR

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim.2:5)

Lucifer, as "Covering Cherub" served in this capacity in the heavenly Tabernacle fr the angels. Notice that scripture is very careful to say "men" and the "Man" Jesus. So also Lucifer a "Covering" Cherub would be grant access to angels. the root word of "Covering" is to "go through".

By the way, the Lord alluded to this whole procedure by telling us that our prayers must be in His Name. Without Jesus we don't get near God.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Jn 14:6).

[Michael37]

41 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

So also Lucifer a "Covering" Cherub would be grant access to angels. the root word of "Covering" is to "go through".

And Eve was tempted to "go through" to disobey God's Will.

[Littlelambseativy]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I see it in the word "Covering". God met with man on the Mercy Seat - the top of the box that made up the Ark of the Covenant. Because God is so holy, He, as uncreated cannot have direct dealings with that which was created (Ps.113:6). So also with Israel. Though they were set aside fr His purpose and a chosen Nation, any man except the High Priest who went near the Mercy Seat would be killed. To "guard" the access to the Mercy Seat were two Cherubim with wings outstretched to "Cover" the Mercy Seat. To meet God, you had to be approved by the Cherubim. They either let you pass or stopped you.

Now, this all is a picture, or Type of our Mediator - Jesus Christ. The Veil of the Tabernacle/Temple is torn from top to bottom, so we may enter the "Throne room" boldly. But not without our High Pries - Jesus. He is our MEDIATOR

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim.2:5)

Lucifer, as "Covering Cherub" served in this capacity in the heavenly Tabernacle fr the angels. Notice that scripture is very careful to say "men" and the "Man" Jesus. So also Lucifer a "Covering" Cherub would be grant access to angels. the root word of "Covering" is to "go through".

By the way, the Lord alluded to this whole procedure by telling us that our prayers must be in His Name. Without Jesus we don't get near God.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Jn 14:6).

But Lucifer was a created being… where in the Bible do you see Lucifer as a mediator! Nowhere does it say what you describe about Lucifer.. read Ezekiel 28. In addition, Jesus was our Mediator from before the earth was formed. There was no mediator needed in heaven for the angels. Also the Ark of the Covenant in heaven is identical to the one that the Jews had in their temple.

 

Edited February 18 by Littlelambseativy

[AdHoc]

19 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

But Lucifer was a created being… where in the Bible do you see Lucifer as a mediator! Nowhere does it say what you describe about Lucifer.. read Ezekiel 28. In addition, Jesus was our Mediator from before the earth was formed. There was no mediator needed in heaven for the angels. Also the Ark of the Covenant in heaven is identical to the one that the Jews had in their temple.

 

I don't think that "created" plays a role. Aaron, mediator for Israel was a fallen man

Isaiah 14 too has information on Lucifer.

I can see your point about no mediator needed in heaven, but then you say that the Ark of the Covenant in heaven is identical to that on earth. For what then do you need an Ark in heaven, and what Covenant is inside it? What too is the purpose of golden Cherubim on the Ark in heaven? What would need the budding rod of Aaron in heaven, or, the pot of manna?

But I don't mind if you disagree with me. Perhaps the disagreement is in your definition of a Mediator. For instance, if Moses was to make the Tabernacle exactly like that in heaven, what is the Veil for in heaven? I do think though that all would be helped if you explain what a "Covering Cherub" is. The scriptures you give will tell.

God bless.

[Littlelambseativy]

On 2/17/2024 at 2:09 PM, Vine Abider said:

Well, maybe not in these words per se, but what about the example of Job we are given?  The devil was used by God, and God permitted him to do certain things to Job.

Even now, "all things (including the devil) work to the good for us who love God and are called to purpose." (Greek)  Doesn't that include helping the work of God as it pertains to us?

Hold on.. Satan came before God. God was remarking about Job’s righteousness. That was when Satan “asked permission” to tempt Job. God, knowing Job, gave it. 

[Littlelambseativy]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I don't think that "created" plays a role. Aaron, mediator for Israel was a fallen man

Isaiah 14 too has information on Lucifer.

I can see your point about no mediator needed in heaven, but then you say that the Ark of the Covenant in heaven is identical to that on earth. For what then do you need an Ark in heaven, and what Covenant is inside it? What too is the purpose of golden Cherubim on the Ark in heaven? What would need the budding rod of Aaron in heaven, or, the pot of manna?

But I don't mind if you disagree with me. Perhaps the disagreement is in your definition of a Mediator. For instance, if Moses was to make the Tabernacle exactly like that in heaven, what is the Veil for in heaven? I do think though that all would be helped if you explain what a "Covering Cherub" is. The scriptures you give will tell.

God bless.

When the temple was built in the wilderness, God told Moses how and what to make.. a duplicates of what the temple in heaven is like and has even to the golden cherubim. The cherubs surround God’s throne. God needs “no” mediator in heaven… He took care of Satan’s prideful disrespect all by Himself.. God is not man that He needs a mediator to deal with prideful angels.

 

 

Edited February 18 by Littlelambseativy