Why was Satan allowed to contaminate the new and perfect creation?

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

When the temple was built in the wilderness, God told Moses how and what to make.. a duplicates of what the temple in heaven is like and has even to the golden cherubim. The cherubs surround God’s throne.

Yes, but it was a Mercy Seat, not a throne. It was the place God met with a representative of Israel. God accepted the blood there and Israel were not wiped off the face of the earth. God's throne is heaven. The tabernacle was His House on earth and He was dealing with fallen men. The Cherubim defended the holiness of God. They were impassable if Aaron had one little part of his clothing wrong.

If Adam had sought to touch the Tree of Life, the Cherubims would stop him. But if Aaron had complied with all the requirements, the Cherubims wold tolrate his presence.

But I tell you what. I withdraw the word "Mediator". It was an unfortunate name. How would you describe the Covering Cherub? 

[Vine Abider]

41 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Hold on.. Satan came before God. God was remarking about Job’s righteousness. That was when Satan “asked permission” to tempt Job. God, knowing Job, gave it. 

The point is well illustrated in Romans 8:28 . . . "God causes ALL things."

[Littlelambseativy]

26 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

The point is well illustrated in Romans 8:28 . . . "God causes ALL things."

Nowhere in that scripture does it say that God “causes” all things. He may permit things to happen but not cause. 

[Michael37]

12 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Nowhere in that scripture does it say that God “causes” all things. He may permit things to happen but not cause. 

Yes, there have been many words spoken and written on this topic, exploring whether permitting either good or evil is synonymous with causing them to happen.

Creative Momentum does predetermine the effect of nature, but existence is not limited to nature.

From my search: 

Indeed, the saying “God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust” reflects a profound truth. It originates from the Biblical passage found in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 5:45):

“He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

This verse is part of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus imparts teachings on love, forgiveness, and compassion. The message here is that divine blessings, such as sunlight and rain, are bestowed upon all people, regardless of their moral standing or righteousness.

In this simple yet powerful statement, we find a reminder of God’s impartiality—a reminder that nature’s elements do not discriminate. Rain falls on both the virtuous and the flawed, demonstrating a universal grace that transcends human divisions.

So, whether just or unjust, we all share in the same cosmic rhythms—the sun’s warmth and the rain’s nourishment—gifts that sustain life and connect us to something greater than ourselves. 🌦️🌈

[BingChat Co-pilot]

[Vine Abider]

3 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Nowhere in that scripture does it say that God “causes” all things. He may permit things to happen but not cause. 

Perhaps, but if you look at Romans 8:28 in BibleHub.com, a number of translations use the word "causes" in that verse.  In either case (cause or doesn't), however, the end result will be the same, and we will praise Him for how He has worked His loving plan for our benefit.

 https://biblehub.com/romans/8-28.htm

Then in verse 30 it says: "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." So it seems it will all work out according to His will, regardless.

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

The point is well illustrated in Romans 8:28 . . . "God causes ALL things."

 

13 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Nowhere in that scripture does it say that God “causes” all things. He may permit things to happen but not cause. 

 

12 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, there have been many words spoken and written on this topic, exploring whether permitting either good or evil is synonymous with causing them to happen.

Creative Momentum does predetermine the effect of nature, but existence is not limited to nature.

From my search: 

Indeed, the saying “God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust” reflects a profound truth. It originates from the Biblical passage found in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 5:45):

“He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

This verse is part of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus imparts teachings on love, forgiveness, and compassion. The message here is that divine blessings, such as sunlight and rain, are bestowed upon all people, regardless of their moral standing or righteousness.

In this simple yet powerful statement, we find a reminder of God’s impartiality—a reminder that nature’s elements do not discriminate. Rain falls on both the virtuous and the flawed, demonstrating a universal grace that transcends human divisions.

So, whether just or unjust, we all share in the same cosmic rhythms—the sun’s warmth and the rain’s nourishment—gifts that sustain life and connect us to something greater than ourselves. 🌦️🌈

[BingChat Co-pilot]

When the brother says "God causes all things ... " there is not a full-stop after that phrase. It continues and transmits the idea that God is able, and does, turn ALL that happens and ALL things - even negative, to our advantage in the process of being conformed to Christ.

WE must be careful not to attribute an idea to a brother in the Lord because he emphasized a phrase and did not write the whole. Let's take Jacob as an example. Satan is privy to God's Covenant with Abraham. He knows that God has made a choice and it is Jacob's Seed (singular) that will crush his head, and Jacob's seed (plural) that will dash his hopes of world domination. So Satan, on hearing Joseph's dream, thinks that Joseph is the seed. He provokes Josephs brothers to kill Joseph. But by one brother's intervention the rather sell him as a slave.

Joseph undergoes a rigorous training lasting about 17 years including much unjust suffering. He emerges, by the hand of God, as deputy king of the world power Egypt. Because of his sufferings his murderous brothers are saved from starvation. Was God the cause of evil? No! Did God allow the evil. YES! Was Joseph destroyed by it? NO! Did all the surrounding peoples benefit from Joseph in such a high position? YES! Did Egypt profit from the evil done to Joseph? YES! Did Pharaoh profit from the evil done to Joseph. YES!

So, the last question is, did God turn the evil HE ALLOWED to be done to Joseph to favor all the families of the region? That, my friends is what I understand Romans 8:28 to mean. Our brother @Vine Abider can assume that those disputing with him on a Christian Forum are literate and would not chop a sentence to wrest the meaning. If he shortens a verse assuming that you know the whole verse, we are bound to honor that trust.

P.S. I quoted multiple posters to show that I do not accuse any-ONE

Argue passionately. Argue vehemently. Contend for the faith. But do it all honestly. (smiley)

[choir loft]

On 2/16/2024 at 7:46 PM, AdHoc said:

You unwittingly agreed with me. The Cherubim "guarded" the Mercy Seat. But the word used by scripture is "COVERED" (Ex.25:20, 37:9, 1st Ki.5:7, 1 Chrn.18:18, 2nd Chrn.5.8) - the same word in Ezekiel 28 for Lucifer being the Covering Cherub. Since men do not normally have access to heaven, never mind the Tabernacle of heaven, it stands to reason that Lucifer was a "guard" of God's holiness, especially as he was authorized to walk God's "HOLY" mountain among angels. Job 38 puts the angels as rejoicing when the foundations of earth were laid. This would put the angels as created long before man and God would have needed a Covering Cherub long before the earth was created. But the "guarding" Cherub had to let the High priest past, thus making him a "mediator".

Besides this, the Law was "ordained" by angels (Gal.3:19). The root word for "ordained" is "through". Maybe you haven't seen the function for Cherubim, but I'm sure you can see that "Not quite. Not even close" is because you didn't know it. But maybe you can give us the reason why Cherubs appeared, and had a duty in Eden, in Ezekiel and in Revelation. There, the common theme is judgment - a little off your theory of "mercy" ... or not?

Your statement that the Tablets of Law in the Ark was to show that they applied to the Nations is without foundation. It was called The Ark of the Covenant, and the Covenant was made with Israel alone. But if you would like to defend your point, maybe you can add in the budding rod of Aaron and the hidden manna.

Finally, did you know that in that Law you promote for all men, it says that you shall not bear false witness. But you have put words in our brother @Vine Abider's mouth that he did not say. I wonder what the other readers think of that?

You are making a multitude of assumptions that aren't asserted by scripture.

Angels did not 'ordain/authorize' the LAW or any part of it.  They are said to have 'administered it', which isn't the same thing.  

Your statement that angels were created "long before man" is unsubstantiated by scripture.  In fact, there's no statement in Holy Writ at all regarding their creation.   This point is often made by people who insist upon asserting LDS literature.  

I cannot give a reason why Cherubs are mentioned in the Bible because it says nothing about their point of origin or purpose.  

Angels exist on approximately 9 levels of authority.  Specifications for each may be found in scripture, not comic books.

Mostly they are employed as messengers or directly involved in prosecuting the will of God among men for purposes of punishment or judgment.  Nothing is said about their duty in Eden other than to act as a type of gatekeeper to prevent man from reentry.  

Nothing is said about angels in Ezekiel either.  The manifestation in Ezekiel is of God's shekinah glory which isn't an angelic appearance - or a UFO as assumed by many.  

The general purpose of angels in Revelation is stated as administers of churches, messengers or God's instrument of judgment as previously stated.

The LAW of Moses, which was placed in the ark, is meant for all nations.  

Which part of the LAW do you believe can be broken by church types?  

Is it now ok to lie, cheat, steal and murder?  Is it ok to murder one's neighbor, steal his goods, rape his wife and burn his house to the ground while remaining sinless?  This IS the attitude of the post-modern church and that's why God has abandoned it.  

Incidentally I didn't "put words in the mouth of another."  Your claim I did so is erroneous.

Church types today love to defend SIN and lay waste to the ordinances of God - claiming that they do not apply to them because they are members of some humanistic politically correct religion.  

The LAW remains because Jesus said it did.  (Matt 5:17)

The covenant with Moses was made for ALL nations, not just Hebrews.   If it only applied to Hebrews, then NO NON-JEW could ever be saved.  You know not the LAW.

APART FROM THE LAW, NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.

Most church types know not the LAW.  Neither do they respect it or apply it in their own lives.  Therefore God has abandoned the institutional church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited February 19 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 2/17/2024 at 2:09 PM, Vine Abider said:

Well, maybe not in these words per se, but what about the example of Job we are given?  The devil was used by God, and God permitted him to do certain things to Job.

Even now, "all things (including the devil) work to the good for us who love God and are called to purpose." (Greek)  Doesn't that include helping the work of God as it pertains to us?

The theme of the book of Job has nothing to do with Job's affliction by satanic forces.

It doesn't have anything to do with 'patience' either.

The theme of the book of Job is to teach us that personal affliction IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.

Read Job again.  

Nowhere in that book is ANY explanation offered as to why God sanctioned affliction upon Job and his family. 

It certainly tells us what entity inspired Job's affliction and it describes permissions granted by God to the opposer to do it, but it says NOTHING about why.

I submit that the reason for Job's affliction and also that no reason for it is given is simply  ... God reserves the rationale for His judgments to Himself.  

It's His business, not ours.  

One observes this policy by reading between the lines, not by arguing that the devil has some sort of general permission to raise hell with the sons of man.

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Romans 9:15)

God is sovereign, not the devil.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited February 19 by choir loft

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, choir loft said:

You are making a multitude of assumptions that aren't asserted by scripture.

Angels did not 'ordain/authorize' the LAW or any part of it.  They are said to have 'administered it', which isn't the same thing.  

Your statement that angels were created "long before man" is unsubstantiated by scripture.  In fact, there's no statement in Holy Writ at all regarding their creation.   This point is often made by people who insist upon asserting LDS literature.  

I cannot give a reason why Cherubs are mentioned in the Bible because it says nothing about their point of origin or purpose.  

Angels exist on approximately 9 levels of authority.  Specifications for each may be found in scripture, not comic books.

Mostly they are employed as messengers or directly involved in prosecuting the will of God among men for purposes of punishment or judgment.  Nothing is said about their duty in Eden other than to act as a type of gatekeeper to prevent man from reentry.  

Nothing is said about angels in Ezekiel either.  The manifestation in Ezekiel is of God's shekinah glory which isn't an angelic appearance - or a UFO as assumed by many.  

The general purpose of angels in Revelation is stated as administers of churches, messengers or God's instrument of judgment as previously stated.

The LAW of Moses, which was placed in the ark, is meant for all nations.  

Which part of the LAW do you believe can be broken by church types?  

Is it now ok to lie, cheat, steal and murder?  Is it ok to murder one's neighbor, steal his goods, rape his wife and burn his house to the ground while remaining sinless?  This IS the attitude of the post-modern church and that's why God has abandoned it.  

Incidentally I didn't "put words in the mouth of another."  Your claim I did so is erroneous.

Church types today love to defend SIN and lay waste to the ordinances of God - claiming that they do not apply to them because they are members of some humanistic politically correct religion.  

The LAW remains because Jesus said it did.  (Matt 5:17)

The covenant with Moses was made for ALL nations, not just Hebrews.   If it only applied to Hebrews, then NO NON-JEW could ever be saved.  You know not the LAW.

APART FROM THE LAW, NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.

Most church types know not the LAW.  Neither do they respect it or apply it in their own lives.  Therefore God has abandoned the institutional church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Thank you for a reasonable answer. I would like to contend with you about the Law, but to derail the thread is not called for. The subject comes up so often that a swap of ideas is almost inevitable. Go well.

[Littlelambseativy]

In Job's time, as amazing as it sounds, God put a hedge around Job because of his righteousness in following every aspect of "the law". Satan knew this. But God because of His "foreknowledge" knew that Job would not deny Him nor curse Him. This is the aspect that shows us that Satan cannot touch one of the born-again believers without God's permission and should be a great comfort to us.  As God permitted it, He also blessed because of it and increased what Job lost because of the trial he went through yet remained faithful to God.