A NEW REVIVAL?

[WilliamL]

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

“He did not come to ABOLISH the Law but to FULFILL it.”

These two words are quite different… Jesus did not come to ABOLISH OR DO AWAY with HIS FATHERS LAW given to Moses BY GOD. 

The subject I am addressing is the Mosaic Law, not the Ten Commandments, which were incorporated into the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law came through the intermediary Moses; the Ten Commandments were given directly to the people by the Lord's voice, and written by His hand.

As far as I know, the term "the Law" in the NT always referred to the Mosaic Law, unless otherwise qualified.

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The subject I am addressing is the Mosaic Law, not the Ten Commandments, which were incorporated into the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law came through the intermediary Moses; the Ten Commandments were given directly to the people by the Lord's voice, and written by His hand.

As far as I know, the term "the Law" in the NT always referred to the Mosaic Law, unless otherwise qualified.

Ok. So without me putting words in your mouth, do you agree with following:

1) the 10 commandments have NOT been done away with and we are required to (try) and obey them with the help of the Holy Spirit,

2) the “ceremonial laws” that were given to Moses which include the physical elements such as the Temple, the Sanctuary, the holy vessels, the animal sacrifices, the dietary laws, circumcism, etc., HAVE been done away with by the coming Messiah and the cross, 

3) are there any other parts of the Mosiac Laws that still remain or that were also done away with and I failed to mention?

 

[WilliamL]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

1) the 10 commandments have NOT been done away with and we are required to (try) and obey them with the help of the Holy Spirit,

True.

7 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

2) the “ceremonial laws” that were given to Moses which include the physical elements such as the Temple, the Sanctuary, the holy vessels, the animal sacrifices, the dietary laws, circumcism, etc., HAVE been done away with by the coming Messiah and the cross, 

For the Church, i.e., the ones who receive the Gospel.

They [the Mosaic laws] will be resumed in some fashion after the rapture, as OT passages such as in Zech 14 make clear.

10 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

3) are there any other parts of the Mosiac Laws that still remain or that were also done away with and I failed to mention?

Ambiguous if not outright contradictory question.

[choir loft]

On 3/25/2024 at 4:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

Numbers don't lie, but people frequently lie with numbers!

And, his Name is actually Yeeshuwa` (יֵשׁ֡וּעַ pronounced "yay-shoo'-gah"), which is Hebrew for "He shall save/rescue/deliver.") It is a verb with the 3rd-person, singular, masculine prefix. The `ayin, the last consonant of the name [on the left end, btw] is the same as the first letter in "Gaza." It's a 'swallowed g' sound, like when a person gulps. Only a "Sabra" (a native of Israel) or an Arab or an Egyptian will pronounce it correctly.

Also, the "her" reference is NOT about the "church!" It's about BABYLON the Great! 

Revelation 18:1-10 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying,

"Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying,

"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart,

"'I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.'

8 "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying,

"Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come!"

Spelling of the Hebrew representation of the Name of the Son of Man varies depending upon who uses it and where it appears.   The Hebrew pronunciation remains the same as you have demonstrated.

Spelling varies from the example you've posted as well as Y'shuah to Yshuah to Yeshuah, etc.  

In the Messianic Shabbat Siddur  (Messanic Sabbath prayer book), the Name (Hashem) is spelled YESHUA.

A lot of people who are new to our congregations get the spelling really mixed up. I can't pretend to list all the variations they come up with.  Most of us know what they mean, though.  They are sincere about trying to get it right and that's all that matters to us.

I'm not here to say you're wrong about spelling, but you're not exactly right either.  The Name (hashem) is holy and I believe that's what really matters.  Don't you agree?

A lot of Jews don't even use the word Adonai as is spoken in the Shema.  They don't usually say "God" either.  Instead they say Hashem, which literally means THE NAME.  

I should point out a few tips to ANYBODY who is interested in witnessing to a Jew about the Son of Man (use this term rather than Son of God. 'Son of Man' refers to Daniel 7.  I have no idea why they choke on Son of God, but not Son of Man other than its a tradition thing.).  

Do NOT refer to a difference between Old Testament and New Testament.  Instead use the term New Covenant or, better still, direct references to the gospels or epistles.  They know what you mean, but separating the Bible into component parts irritates them.  

DO remind them that all the Bible Christians use was written by Jews for Jews (except the gospel of Luke and book of Acts).  The Bible isn't a relic of space aliens.

DO NOT tell them they are "Christ killers."   It was Roman soldiers who actually executed the King of the Jews.  Everybody in town had a part in killing God that day, Jew and non-Jew alike.

DO remind them they ought to read Isaiah 53, which is the most graphic representation of the crucifixion anywhere in the Bible. Oddly, the regular reading of scripture in every synagogue does NOT have any passage from Isaiah 53.  They 'skip over it'. If they won't read the gospels they should read Isaiah 53.  Most of them haven't. 

DO remind them that Y'shuah (the Hebrew name of the Son of Man...USE IT) survived his own public execution and walked out of His own tomb a few days later. Only God could do that....and it is documented in many secular records as well as the four gospels...some of those accounts are rather shocking, btw.

There are other hints too, but that's all I need to share today.  

Thanks for reading...

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... (Isaiah 6:9-10) 

 

[choir loft]

On 3/26/2024 at 2:20 PM, WilliamL said:

Show me one passage in the NT wherein the Apostles taught that circumcision of the flesh, required by the Law of Moses, is a requirement for Gentiles to be saved.

Galatians 2:1 Then after fourteen years I [Paul] went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

This took place during the Council of Jerusalem, which Acts 15 says was called because of Jewish believers telling Gentile believers that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. The conclusion of that council, announced by James was this:

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— ... 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

So what do you say?

I believe I've already written my position about that.  Please scroll up and read it again.

CL

[choir loft]

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Ok. So without me putting words in your mouth, do you agree with following:

1) the 10 commandments have NOT been done away with and we are required to (try) and obey them with the help of the Holy Spirit,

2) the “ceremonial laws” that were given to Moses which include the physical elements such as the Temple, the Sanctuary, the holy vessels, the animal sacrifices, the dietary laws, circumcism, etc., HAVE been done away with by the coming Messiah and the cross, 

3) are there any other parts of the Mosiac Laws that still remain or that were also done away with and I failed to mention?

 

(1) Agreed.

(2) Disagree, provisionally.  

Ceremonial laws were NOT abolished by the death of Messiah.  They were fulfilled, which does not carry the same connotation.   Additionally, the book of Hebrews writes the first covenant was "obsolete" and that the first covenant 'will soon disappear'. (NIV)  This particular passage was written while Herod's temple still stood. As you remember it was torn down by the Romans in 70 AD.  Thus many ceremonial requirement of the LAW, including animal sacrifice, were rendered impossible by the fact that the temple no longer existed.

Animal sacrifices were TEMPORARY because animals, however pure they may have been, were mortal.  This is why animal sacrifices had to be performed continually.  When God died on the cross He did so to sacrifice an immortal life.  Thus His was a PERMANENT sacrifice for all people for all time.  Jesus' death fulfilled the requirement of the LAW.  It did not abolish the LAW.  His death does not need to be repeated because of the immortal nature of God's life.  

The PROBLEM with all this, according to the LAW, is that one is required by the LAW to accept God's mandated sacrifice (Jesus) in order to approach God.  If one does not accept the sacrifice of God's own life then one cannot be accepted by God...one cannot be granted immortal life in exchange.   In other words, the nature of man, which is to die, will not be altered if one does not accept God's sacrifice AS THE LAW REQUIRES. 

Those that argue against the LAW fail to realize that when their local pastor makes an alter call, he is doing so in accord with the LAW which requires all men to surrender to His will and apply His sacrifice accordingly.  Rejection of God's LAW results in the Second Death, by the LAW.

(3) Jewish tradition, as expressed in Mosaic LAW, remains.  For example, a serious Jew won't eat bacon bits on his salad or buy a cheese burger from McDonalds' on Saturday (do not mix meat with dairy and don't hire someone to work for you on Shabbat).  Ask yourself if you as a non-Jew are bound by Jewish tradition and you'll have your answer.  

According to apostolic epistles non-Jews are not bound by Jewish tradition.  Even the Torah doesn't require it of them.  NOBODY is saying Torah is abolished in any way.

There are two major misunderstandings of non-Jews about the Biblical discussions of Jesus and the apostles about LAW and works.  

First is that they were referring to the Law of Works also called the Talmud.  The Talmud was composed during the Babylonian captivity and is an invention of man/the Jewish Rabbinate.  The Torah was given by God in an act of Grace to Moses.  It is divinely inspired.  

Second, Jesus lived by Torah.  He did NOT live by or was bound by Talmud.   We read many instances in the gospels where Talmidim (disciples) of the Talmud were angry with Jesus for performing miracles on Shabbat. There is no restriction against such things in Torah, but there are restrictions in Talmud.  There is a definite distinction between the two and Jesus made it many times.  

Finally it should be understood that the LAW/Torah nowhere claims to be able to save anybody.  Talmud does!  Therefore much of the writing of the apostles is an argument against the law of works (Talmud) vs. Grace (Torah).  One has to be a Jew who is familiar with the distinction and the argument to understand what is being said and not said.

Non-Jews, who are normally unaware of these differences are pretty confused about the whole argument.

LAW (Torah) and Grace are pretty much the same thing - operating together for the justification and sanctification of men.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Edited March 29 by choir loft

[choir loft]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nope, He fulfilled it by shedding His blood on the cross. "It is finished!"

Those of the Church practicing "the apostasy" [2 Thes. 2:3] teach such things, but many others of the Church don't. One of the signs of the End Times. Didn't you know this?

You're saying parts of the Law of Moses are "meaningless"? Then who gets to decide which parts are meaningless? You? Circumcision of the flesh was a requirement for any follower of the Law to observe the Passover. You say it isn't?   

I wrote about the distinction earlier.  Please reread those posts if you wish to understand my intent.  I don't need to continually repeat myself for those who only want to argue.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

[Charlie744]

47 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

True.

For the Church, i.e., the ones who receive the Gospel.

They [the Mosaic laws] will be resumed in some fashion after the rapture, as OT passages such as in Zech 14 make clear

If I understand you, you are saying the “ceremonial” type laws / practices such as the need for a rebuilt Temple, reinstate the animal sacrifices, etc., will have to be all have to occur once again?

 After the cross there is neither Jew or Greek but all one in Christ. Paul never preached the return of the Levitical system. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, our High Priest, our Temple, the only way to salvation. The Jews WILL come to see that Jesus was the one they pierced… He will remove the blindness from their eyes. 
 

The Temple, the animal sacrifices and all other rituals, practices, in the Levitical system have BEEN FULFILLED. 

47 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Ambiguous if not outright contradictory question.

The only reason I mentioned this is because I am not conversant with all of the Levitical laws and you may be considering one or more that I did not mention and you might believe they still are applicable.

Also, based on your earlier comments, which is why I responded, I definitely came away with thinking you believed the 10 commandments were done away with - which is exactly why I broke them out from the ceremonial laws. 
 

Jesus told His disciples to 1) obey HIS COMMANDMENTS, and, 2) believe He is the Messiah. He never told them to believe in the “Mosiac” laws. 
 

There are ONLY two things that are NOT OF THIS WORLD - His 10 Words given to mankind, and The Messiah. Thus, these are the two things He told His disciples to keep. 
 

This is also the reason I believe these represent God’s two witnesses mentioned in Revelation - but that is another story… 

[WilliamL]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:57 PM, Charlie744 said:

After the cross there is neither Jew or Greek but all one in Christ.

The key words being "in Christ." During the Church Age. Which is coming to an end.

On 3/29/2024 at 4:57 PM, Charlie744 said:

Paul never preached the return of the Levitical system.

The OT testament prophets/prophecies most certainly say it will. Examples:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. ... 20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them.

Isaiah 60:5 Then you shall see and become radiant,

And your heart shall swell with joy;
Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.

6 The multitude of camels shall cover your land,
The dromedaries of Midian and Ephah;
All those from Sheba shall come;
They shall bring gold and incense,
And they shall proclaim the praises of the LORD.

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you,

The rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
They shall ascend with acceptance on My altar,
And I will glorify the house of My glory.

Edited March 31 by WilliamL

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The key words being "in Christ." During the Church Age. Which is coming to an end.

The OT testament prophets/prophecies most certainly say it will. Examples:

Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. ... 20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them.

Isaiah 60:5 Then you shall see and become radiant,

And your heart shall swell with joy;
Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
The wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.

6 The multitude of camels shall cover your land,
The dromedaries of Midian and Ephah;
All those from Sheba shall come;
They shall bring gold and incense,
And they shall proclaim the praises of the LORD.

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you,

The rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
They shall ascend with acceptance on My altar,
And I will glorify the house of My glory.

The Levitical laws have been done away with, but the final 3 feast days WILL be fulfilled by Jesus at His second coming.

He will return in Trumpets. And within the next 15 days all will tabernacle with Him should they have placed their faith in Him. By the way, this is where the 1335 days prophecy in chapter 12 occurs. The Lord will return on Trumpets - that will be on the 1320 days after the 3.5 years when God would remove the blindness from the eyes of His people and they preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus to the world. 
 

After Trumpets comes the 10 days of Aw (don’t know if this becomes the period of the wrath of God), but “those that wait until 1335 days - the 15 days after Trumpets (day 1320) will be blessed.”