enoob57 Posted February 17 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,189 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,467 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 17 Just now, Charlie744 said: Abraham had total faith in God. Did Cain somehow lack sufficient faith in God? If the offering type was not the basis for God’s disapproval, why was Cain’s offering unacceptable? Later on, both a grain and a blood offering would be acceptable in the Levitical system. This is a very interesting topic. Cain never gave indication of sorrow for murdering his brother and magnified his total self-interest 'my punishment is more than I can bare'... Point being he took everything from his brother... Faith is derived through God's Word, and I have always appreciated God's summary of said Word: Matthew 22:36 (KJV) [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. So if one has faith generated by God's Word then the above would be recognized in the living... I don't see any of it in the accounting of Cain's life? Good view down the road! Here's some good points on your observation: What is a grain offering? | GotQuestions.org Thank you for this additional motivation to look deeper Charlie! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 (edited) 55 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Cain never gave indication of sorrow for murdering his brother and magnified his total self-interest 'my punishment is more than I can bare I was just about to say this. Almost a "jinx - you owe me a Coke". Another evidence that as the New Testament says Cain was "of the devil" is that God gave him FOUR chances to confess and repent of his heart problem. He refused to submit to God. If he had only answered one of these questions/statements with a willingness to follow God, things might have been different. [1] Why are you angry? Anger is poisonous to the soul. God could have helped him with that. [2] Why is your face downcast? Cain was dejected and miserable. Some people enjoy the misery. They get a selfish payoff of some kind. God could have released him from that poison if he had only submitted to God. [3] If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? This was the perfect invitation to fall at God's feet [so to speak] and confess the evil in his heart. [4] But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it. The final warning and Cain took no notice of it.. God was giving Cain a "way of escape", but wouldn't take it. As the New Testament says, he had no faith and he was of the evil one. Edited February 17 by Jayne 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.92 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 14 minutes ago, Jayne said: I was just about to say this. Almost a "jinx - you owe me a Coke". Another evidence that as the New Testament says Cain was "of the devil" is that God gave him FOUR chances to confess and repent of his heart problem. He refused to submit to God. If he had only answered one of these questions/statements with a willingness to follow God, things might have been different. [1] Why are you angry? Anger is poisonous to the soul. God could have helped him with that. [2] Why is your face downcast? Cain was dejected and miserable. Some people enjoy the misery. They get a selfish payoff of some kind. God could have released him from that poison if he had only submitted to God. [3] If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? This was the perfect invitation to fall at God's feet [so to speak] and confess the evil in his heart. [4] But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it. The final warning and Cain took no notice of it.. God was giving Cain a "way of escape", but wouldn't take it. As the New Testament says, he had no faith and he was of the evil one. As I rad your post Proverbs 16:18 came to mind in regard to Cain: “Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall". True since the beginning. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted February 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 17 9 hours ago, Jayne said: I think the New Testament gives some insight into Cain. It was more than just fruit vs. livestock. Hebrews 11:4 "By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 1 John 3:12 "We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. Jude verse 11 "Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion. In my mind... The FAITH of Abel came first, so says Hebrews 11:4. Cain had none. Cain was evil and of the devil - so says 1 John and Jude. I think Jude 11 hits the nail on the head. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. [Jde 1:11 KJV] Cain was greedy in his offering toward God and did not offer God the first and best of his offering but held back the best portion. Why because he was controlled by greed. He valued his wealth more than God and this caused him to error in offering God a less than acceptable offering. Yes, faith does play a part in this because someone of true faith in God values God more than anything else. The error of Balaam was that Balaam valued wealth more than God and just like Korah who because jealous and envious of Moses, so did Cain towards Abel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 54 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,667 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 857 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, Jayne said: I was just about to say this. Almost a "jinx - you owe me a Coke". Another evidence that as the New Testament says Cain was "of the devil" is that God gave him FOUR chances to confess and repent of his heart problem. He refused to submit to God. If he had only answered one of these questions/statements with a willingness to follow God, things might have been different. [1] Why are you angry? Anger is poisonous to the soul. God could have helped him with that. [2] Why is your face downcast? Cain was dejected and miserable. Some people enjoy the misery. They get a selfish payoff of some kind. God could have released him from that poison if he had only submitted to God. [3] If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? This was the perfect invitation to fall at God's feet [so to speak] and confess the evil in his heart. [4] But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it. The final warning and Cain took no notice of it.. God was giving Cain a "way of escape", but wouldn't take it. As the New Testament says, he had no faith and he was of the evil one. Thank you! Unfortunately, my brain is still have some form of a blockage here. I can not get to the bottom of this yet. Are we saying the “initial” issue (whatever the reason his offering was not accepted which is not really stated, but it MAY be inferred that Cain knew he “shorted” God), was not the MAIN lesson here? Instead, God is revealing that Cain was given 4 opportunities to select a means to repent or address his transgression but chose his own method of dealing with it? Sort of like Sarah suggesting to Abraham how to deal with the lack of children issue - rather than turn to God they chose a plan of their own ? Look forward to your responses on this .. I am still stuck in the mud, Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 54 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,667 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 857 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 16 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said: I think Jude 11 hits the nail on the head. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. [Jde 1:11 KJV] Cain was greedy in his offering toward God and did not offer God the first and best of his offering but held back the best portion. Why because he was controlled by greed. He valued his wealth more than God and this caused him to error in offering God a less than acceptable offering. Yes, faith does play a part in this because someone of true faith in God values God more than anything else. The error of Balaam was that Balaam valued wealth more than God and just like Korah who because jealous and envious of Moses, so did Cain towards Abel. Oh this is good too!!! So, it may not be a “blood sacrifice” verses “non-blood sacrifice” issue, but however God AND Cain understood it, it was not an offering of “faith” in that he would offer he “best” he could offer (grain or animal- whatever he is involved in) and gave complete faith that God that AFTER giving his “first and best of whatever,” God would always take care of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted February 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 17 8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: Oh this is good too!!! So, it may not be a “blood sacrifice” verses “non-blood sacrifice” issue, but however God AND Cain understood it, it was not an offering of “faith” in that he would offer he “best” he could offer (grain or animal- whatever he is involved in) and gave complete faith that God that AFTER giving his “first and best of whatever,” God would always take care of him? Yes, I don't think it was so much of what was being offered but how it was offered. Abel offered the best of his wealth/increase, Cain didn't because he was greedy and selfish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 17 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 17 32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said: Thank you! Unfortunately, my brain is still have some form of a blockage here. I can not get to the bottom of this yet. Are we saying the “initial” issue (whatever the reason his offering was not accepted which is not really stated, but it MAY be inferred that Cain knew he “shorted” God), was not the MAIN lesson here? Instead, God is revealing that Cain was given 4 opportunities to select a means to repent or address his transgression but chose his own method of dealing with it? Sort of like Sarah suggesting to Abraham how to deal with the lack of children issue - rather than turn to God they chose a plan of their own ? Look forward to your responses on this .. I am still stuck in the mud, Charlie Don't worry. I have studied the Bible in its entirety for decades and still can't get to the bottom of some things. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the main lesson is WHAT he brought, but with what HEART he brought it. Consider this: Let's say a church is collecting an offering for an orphanage overseas. One little old retired man could only afford $10, but he gave $20 and spent deep time in prayer over those children. Another younger, RICH man could have easily afforded $50,000 and never missed it. And he GAVE $50,000. But he made sure that everyone knew that he did and he ONLY gave it as a tax write-off. He didn't care about the children of the orphanage. Which gift do you think God accepted? Which made no difference to God? Cain's gift was not FOR God. It was just a duty and done so others could see that he did it. It was the heart. The intent. The desire to be God's servant on this earth. It may be similar to Abraham and Sarah. They actually made TWO wrong decisions. In chapter 15, Abraham tells God that he will adopt his chief slave as a "son". He tells God that since God hasn't done anything about his promise that his [Abraham's] "adopting" idea is a good one. God tells him "no", that the son will come from his own body. In chapter 16, Sarah is now wanting to use HER slave as a surrogate. She believes that her not having children is God's doing - that God has kept her from ever being a mother. Abraham agrees. After all, God just told him that the son of the promise would come from his body. In the moment, sadly, that was all that mattered to him. He saw his wife was barren. The ironic thing is that the Bible, in the New Testament, says that Abraham's body was "as good as dead" [we know what that means] and his wife's womb was dead. Romans 4. They both are grasping as slave-straws and NOT trusting God. They believe IN God, but in this instance, they are not trusting him. Why? Because in that natural - the two of them having a baby was impossible. They just weren't clinging to the supernatual ability of God to intervene miraculously. Cain has no use for God. Abraham and Sarah were righteous people, but did not trust God to keep his word. Or at least, they felt that they had to HELP God out. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts