Let All Things Be Done Decently And In Order

[D. Adrien]

45 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

The Lord introduced His Church in Matthew 16. The Church will be built on two pillars;
1. Men in resurrection (it is the Gates of HADES, not "hell").
2. Church government. Who is disciplined by the Church will be equally recorded in heaven

Matthew 18 expands on Church government. The way of reconciliation is first, then excommunication if it is ignored.

But, while the Head, Jesus, introduces the Church, it is given to Paul to show Christ and the Church in action. The grand process is found in Ephesians 4. We are to keep the unity already established by the Spirit while the HEAD (Jesus) gives the gifted ones His supply. Then, the gifted ones, under inspiration, supply the Body. The goal is twofold;
1. Come to a point where everyone holds the same doctrine (called; "The UNITY of the THE faith)
2. Every member comes to maturity in living their lives in a Christ-like way

The elders are there to make sure that there is order so that the gifted ones can function. The first attack of the enemy was the Nicolaitan system. Certain men who were charismatic and even gifted, but who sought their own preeminence, proposed that the immature and slow and those with other gifts should not waste the meeting with unlearned opinions. Thus, the mouth of 90% of the Assembly is stopped and the system of Ephesians 4 crumbles. The result is the opposite of what the Nicolaitans proposed. The ordinary member does not seek his supply from Christ and becomes passive in the meetings. The supply from Christ to ALL the member is cut off and no-one comes to maturity.

The Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but this grand principle of Ephesians 4 is found in Israel's tithing. Three times a year are all males (the inheritors) to go to "the place where Jehovah put His Name" and are to use the tithe to feast with. And this feast was to extend to all Israelites. The fruit of the Good Land was made possible by God and it was to be used for everyone. The Law governing this was simple: "Let no man appear before God EMPTY-HANDED (Dt 16:16–17). 

16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: 17 Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.

The produce of the Good Land was God's supply (v.17). The giver of tithes was the main eater, but his abundance  was passed on the priest, widow and orphan - the weak (Deut.14:29). And so it aught to be in the Church. Those who are given much by the Lord, are to give much in the assembly and those who have little must give little. But "empty-handed" is forbidden.

Nicolaitan is a compound word transliterated. It is built of "Nico", which means "victor", and "Laien", which means "the common man". Christ's revelation to Paul was that He would supply a big percentage. In verse 16 he speaks of "EVERY joint", "EVERY part" and "the WHOLE body". In 1st Corinthians 14 Paul says; "every one" and "you may ALL prophesy" (14:26, 31).

You present for me a fascinating depiction of levels of authority within the body of the Church which appears to be based on biblical teachings. I also noticed you make use of the name, Nicolaitan, which appears in Rev.2 where Jesus is critiquing the Church at Pergamum. I've never found a source that was confident in defining what or who exactly are/is Nicolaitans. Perhaps I was just inept in locating a reliable source though. Thank you AdHoc for your post.

[Ray12614]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The Lord introduced His Church in Matthew 16. The Church will be built on two pillars;
1. Men in resurrection (it is the Gates of HADES, not "hell").
2. Church government. Who is disciplined by the Church will be equally recorded in heaven

Matthew 18 expands on Church government. The way of reconciliation is first, then excommunication if it is ignored.

But, while the Head, Jesus, introduces the Church, it is given to Paul to show Christ and the Church in action. The grand process is found in Ephesians 4. We are to keep the unity already established by the Spirit while the HEAD (Jesus) gives the gifted ones His supply. Then, the gifted ones, under inspiration, supply the Body. The goal is twofold;
1. Come to a point where everyone holds the same doctrine (called; "The UNITY of the THE faith)
2. Every member comes to maturity in living their lives in a Christ-like way

The elders are there to make sure that there is order so that the gifted ones can function. The first attack of the enemy was the Nicolaitan system. Certain men who were charismatic and even gifted, but who sought their own preeminence, proposed that the immature and slow and those with other gifts should not waste the meeting with unlearned opinions. Thus, the mouth of 90% of the Assembly is stopped and the system of Ephesians 4 crumbles. The result is the opposite of what the Nicolaitans proposed. The ordinary member does not seek his supply from Christ and becomes passive in the meetings. The supply from Christ to ALL the member is cut off and no-one comes to maturity.

The Church is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but this grand principle of Ephesians 4 is found in Israel's tithing. Three times a year are all males (the inheritors) to go to "the place where Jehovah put His Name" and are to use the tithe to feast with. And this feast was to extend to all Israelites. The fruit of the Good Land was made possible by God and it was to be used for everyone. The Law governing this was simple: "Let no man appear before God EMPTY-HANDED (Dt 16:16–17). 

16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty: 17 Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.

The produce of the Good Land was God's supply (v.17). The giver of tithes was the main eater, but his abundance  was passed on the priest, widow and orphan - the weak (Deut.14:29). And so it aught to be in the Church. Those who are given much by the Lord, are to give much in the assembly and those who have little must give little. But "empty-handed" is forbidden.

Nicolaitan is a compound word transliterated. It is built of "Nico", which means "victor", and "Laien", which means "the common man". Christ's revelation to Paul was that He would supply a big percentage. In verse 16 he speaks of "EVERY joint", "EVERY part" and "the WHOLE body". In 1st Corinthians 14 Paul says; "every one" and "you may ALL prophesy" (14:26, 31).

Wow . . . there certainly are a lot of side topics that we can talk about when it comes to the 'assembly', 'Church', and 'temples', what is decent and acceptable behavior in the local church, and more. Most of which if I strayed off into discussing them, I might leave the original topic of the OP and the above replies, so I will try to give some of my observations and experiences over the last 40 years of being saved and in the 'household' of God with Jesus as my Savior and King. 

1. We must not confuse the local church assemblies with buildings or locations. Across the world there are churches who meet in church buildings, others in basements, others in business buildings, others in open air areas with no buildings to keep weather off those who attend. Where ever we assemble and gather together Jesus is there among us. Yes . . . Jesus does go to church . . . LOL

2. I believe We should strive to pattern our assemblies (local church services) after the examples we have in the NT. The 'all things' talked about that should be done decently and in order are layed out for us in the scriptures presented by the OP and others who replied above.

3. Some churches in an attempt to maintain decency and order have abandoned allowing the manifestations of the Holy Spirit as expressed though God's Eph 4 gifts, and though others who have assembled together. That is categorically wrong. At the other end of the spectrum, I have observed times when unmature brothers and sisters try to 'shout over top of each other' and what the Holy Spirit is doing in the assemblies creating confusion and disorder. That also is categorically wrong and hinders the edification of the saints because it is unclear what/if God is doing things  among us.  The balanced approach is somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes. Everything should be done, and it should be done decently and in order. Every local church assembly has their own customs as to what is done and allowed in their services. Some allow gifts of the HS to manifest, others do not for what ever reason. Some have modern music, others traditional music, others have no music but focus only on the teaching of the Bible. It is a matter of custom of the particular assembly. IF they preach and teach Jesus and the truth of the Word of God that is the primary thing in my opinion only.

Lastly (I hope this is not too long) . . . I am NOT the Church . . . in the sense that I am complete in myself and have no need of the rest of the Body of Christ. I belong to Jesus and I am Part of His Church (both universal and local). There was a time in my life when I said that I don't need to go to church . . . because I am the Church!  I can tell you from experience thats when things got really really weird . . . I was my own apostle, my own evangelist, my own pastor and teacher, and whatever I said and did was right and sanctioned by God because who would/could tell me differently?. I had nobody to sharpen my iron so to speak, I was my own authority and I never corrected myself because I was always right (yeah like that was true). I never was exhorted or comforted because I had cut myself off from the very community of faith who could help me. And of course I never helped anybody else either. I was alone and in an bubble. Jesus in His mercy brought me out of that nonsense, and placed me into a functioning NT church assembly, and I am so thankful He did.

That was a little of my testimony . . . hope somebody was helped by it . . . Ray . . . . 

[D. Adrien]

I remember reading the Quaker Handbook perhaps 25 years ago and finding some very helpful ideas from that. The idea of sitting quietly until the Holy Spirit inspires you to speak did seem to speak to me. Today it can be found as a PDF online.

[AdHoc]

23 hours ago, D. Adrien said:

You present for me a fascinating depiction of levels of authority within the body of the Church which appears to be based on biblical teachings. I also noticed you make use of the name, Nicolaitan, which appears in Rev.2 where Jesus is critiquing the Church at Pergamum. I've never found a source that was confident in defining what or who exactly are/is Nicolaitans. Perhaps I was just inept in locating a reliable source though. Thank you AdHoc for your post.

Have you ever considered that nobody is interested in its true meaning because every Assembly practices this system. Even the small House Assemblies, which start out well, fall back on one or two functioning ones while the rest stay silent. Over period of 18 years I visited three House Assemblies. I taught and encouraged the saints (maximum 16) to spend time during the week in prayer, praise and/or the Word, and even if they read two verses of a Psalm at the meeting, thy would be building the Church. I failed.

There is a great lesson to be learned in John 4. Did you notice that Jesus thirsted and hungered but said He had eaten when His disciples returned. When did He eat? Did you notice that the woman left her waterpot. Did she drink? YES! but they only TALKED! And that is the way the Church is built, By everybody TALKING. Every gift is a speaking gift - even miracles. When Peter raised Tabitha it brought many who heard of it to faith. Few Christians know that we are all building (1st Cor.3). Talking with inspiration is building with gold (the nature of God), silver (the redemptive work of Christ), precious stones (the transforming work of the Holy Spirit, and good wood (humanity). Those who keep silent are also building, but downwards. The parable of the building on sand at the end of Matthew 7 is building, whether on rock or sand. When you refuse the Holy Spirit in the Meeting, you build on sand.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Ray12614 said:

Wow . . . there certainly are a lot of side topics that we can talk about when it comes to the 'assembly', 'Church', and 'temples', what is decent and acceptable behavior in the local church, and more. Most of which if I strayed off into discussing them, I might leave the original topic of the OP and the above replies, so I will try to give some of my observations and experiences over the last 40 years of being saved and in the 'household' of God with Jesus as my Savior and King. 

1. We must not confuse the local church assemblies with buildings or locations. Across the world there are churches who meet in church buildings, others in basements, others in business buildings, others in open air areas with no buildings to keep weather off those who attend. Where ever we assemble and gather together Jesus is there among us. Yes . . . Jesus does go to church . . . LOL

2. I believe We should strive to pattern our assemblies (local church services) after the examples we have in the NT. The 'all things' talked about that should be done decently and in order are layed out for us in the scriptures presented by the OP and others who replied above.

3. Some churches in an attempt to maintain decency and order have abandoned allowing the manifestations of the Holy Spirit as expressed though God's Eph 4 gifts, and though others who have assembled together. That is categorically wrong. At the other end of the spectrum, I have observed times when unmature brothers and sisters try to 'shout over top of each other' and what the Holy Spirit is doing in the assemblies creating confusion and disorder. That also is categorically wrong and hinders the edification of the saints because it is unclear what/if God is doing things  among us.  The balanced approach is somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes. Everything should be done, and it should be done decently and in order. Every local church assembly has their own customs as to what is done and allowed in their services. Some allow gifts of the HS to manifest, others do not for what ever reason. Some have modern music, others traditional music, others have no music but focus only on the teaching of the Bible. It is a matter of custom of the particular assembly. IF they preach and teach Jesus and the truth of the Word of God that is the primary thing in my opinion only.

Lastly (I hope this is not too long) . . . I am NOT the Church . . . in the sense that I am complete in myself and have no need of the rest of the Body of Christ. I belong to Jesus and I am Part of His Church (both universal and local). There was a time in my life when I said that I don't need to go to church . . . because I am the Church!  I can tell you from experience thats when things got really really weird . . . I was my own apostle, my own evangelist, my own pastor and teacher, and whatever I said and did was right and sanctioned by God because who would/could tell me differently?. I had nobody to sharpen my iron so to speak, I was my own authority and I never corrected myself because I was always right (yeah like that was true). I never was exhorted or comforted because I had cut myself off from the very community of faith who could help me. And of course I never helped anybody else either. I was alone and in an bubble. Jesus in His mercy brought me out of that nonsense, and placed me into a functioning NT church assembly, and I am so thankful He did.

That was a little of my testimony . . . hope somebody was helped by it . . . Ray . . . . 

Brilliant summary.

The only thing I can mention is that if you try the pure New Testament way (Acts, 1st Corinthians and Ephesians) you will make some mistakes. There will be characters and baby Christians who speak incorrectly and not in the spirit. But God allows for this. Babies burp, fart and do it in their diapers, and we clean it up. That's family life. Just think of all the boo-boos that Peter made. he even brought a satanic concept into the fellowship, but there was no thought of our Lord kicking him out. Also, the strong characters who want to dominate and abuse their freedom. Give him/her time to absorb the meeting concept. And then take the aside or invite them for a meal and have a chat.

If you genuinely want to go the Lord's way, it will have the holy Spirit on your side. But remember; "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet" (1. Cor.14:32). God will never force you to do or say anything and he won't restrain a disruptive character. But ..... accidents happen. And ... one can get very sick for not discerning the body (1. Cor.11:29) - and it is here that the grand gift of Pastor is needed. Not an accountant to count the collections. Not an overbearing authoritarian, but a man who really cares for the sheep put in his care and who deals with them with finger-tip-feeling and who maintains the dignity of a difficult saint.

[Michael37]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:42 AM, D. Adrien said:

You present for me a fascinating depiction of levels of authority within the body of the Church which appears to be based on biblical teachings.

Interjections do happen, some are warranted, others are off the wall or out of line, giving food for thought.

As a Pentecostal fellowship we were asked by the NZ resident daughter of a tall European South African Methodist pastor to provide him with a token position so he and his wife could get a visa to stay in NZ. The leadership agreed and part of the deal was that he would preach once a month.

It soon became obvious that his "theology" wasn't on the same page as our Senior Pastor's. Also his sermons were long. I don't recall what he was preaching about in the sermon that broke the camel's back, but this South African pastor had been preaching for over an hour when he said, "And let me make one last point", at which time our Senior Pastor erupted in rage and exclaimed, "No! I won't. You've gone on long enough."

There was a split in the congregation with this pastor leading away a small disgruntled group and not long after securing a lecturing position at a local Bible College, which satisfied his visa requirements.

[D. Adrien]

26 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Interjections do happen, some are warranted, others are off the wall or out of line, giving food for thought.

As a Pentecostal fellowship we were asked by the NZ resident daughter of a tall European South African Methodist pastor to provide him with a token position so he and his wife could get a visa to stay in NZ. The leadership agreed and part of the deal was that he would preach once a month.

It soon became obvious that his "theology" wasn't on the same page as our Senior Pastor's. Also his sermons were long. I don't recall what he was preaching about in the sermon that broke the camel's back, but this South African pastor had been preaching for over an hour when he said, "And let me make one last point", at which time our Senior Pastor erupted in rage and exclaimed, "No! I won't. You've gone on long enough."

There was a split in the congregation with this pastor leading away a small disgruntled group and not long after securing a lecturing position at a local Bible College, which satisfied his visa requirements.

Isn't it funny how a Christian will always believe that proper decorum or behavior will not be an issue under any circumstance, yet frequently getting blindsided by a lost of composure. Very similar to the ability to control the tongue. 

[farouk]

1 hour ago, D. Adrien said:

Isn't it funny how a Christian will always believe that proper decorum or behavior will not be an issue under any circumstance, yet frequently getting blindsided by a lost of composure. Very similar to the ability to control the tongue. 

@D. Adrien James in his epistle has a lot to say about the tongue.........

[Ray12614]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Brilliant summary.

The only thing I can mention is that if you try the pure New Testament way (Acts, 1st Corinthians and Ephesians) you will make some mistakes. There will be characters and baby Christians who speak incorrectly and not in the spirit. But God allows for this. Babies burp, fart and do it in their diapers, and we clean it up. That's family life. Just think of all the boo-boos that Peter made. he even brought a satanic concept into the fellowship, but there was no thought of our Lord kicking him out. Also, the strong characters who want to dominate and abuse their freedom. Give him/her time to absorb the meeting concept. And then take the aside or invite them for a meal and have a chat.

If you genuinely want to go the Lord's way, it will have the holy Spirit on your side. But remember; "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet" (1. Cor.14:32). God will never force you to do or say anything and he won't restrain a disruptive character. But ..... accidents happen. And ... one can get very sick for not discerning the body (1. Cor.11:29) - and it is here that the grand gift of Pastor is needed. Not an accountant to count the collections. Not an overbearing authoritarian, but a man who really cares for the sheep put in his care and who deals with them with finger-tip-feeling and who maintains the dignity of a difficult saint.

Excellent advice for all readers here . . . thank you. Yes, at my church we have and do make mistakes for sure. But the HS is gracious and merciful and when we do have 'issues' come up, we do what you have said above (amazing how the wisdom of the HS flows). IF it is something ministered that is off somewhat, we usually follow up with 'thank you for that word, and I believe that this is what the HS is speaking for us all this morning/evening  . . . ' and gently correct what is amiss. That way we all learn, and, also the person attempting to flow in the HS is not chastised, but, instructed and exhorted to continue to press-in to the gifts. That also encourages others to listen to the HG and minister as they are lead knowing that IF they miss it, they will not be publicly chastised for attempting to be used to minister to us as a church body/assembly.

To date nobody has ministered anything that is seriously wrong, That would have to be handled in a more direct way (a little leaven leavens the whole lump). Most of our assembly would immediately recognize those kinds of errors since we are a Bible centered, teaching, preaching, discipleship church and so we do know that discipleship is a life long process not an over night attainment. 

So much can be said about this topic . . . . but . . . It is almost time for my local church/assembly to meet and I need to get ready . . . LOL

Grace and Peace . . . 

Ray . . . 

[AdHoc]

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Interjections do happen, some are warranted, others are off the wall or out of line, giving food for thought.

As a Pentecostal fellowship we were asked by the NZ resident daughter of a tall European South African Methodist pastor to provide him with a token position so he and his wife could get a visa to stay in NZ. The leadership agreed and part of the deal was that he would preach once a month.

It soon became obvious that his "theology" wasn't on the same page as our Senior Pastor's. Also his sermons were long. I don't recall what he was preaching about in the sermon that broke the camel's back, but this South African pastor had been preaching for over an hour when he said, "And let me make one last point", at which time our Senior Pastor erupted in rage and exclaimed, "No! I won't. You've gone on long enough."

There was a split in the congregation with this pastor leading away a small disgruntled group and not long after securing a lecturing position at a local Bible College, which satisfied his visa requirements.

 

22 hours ago, D. Adrien said:

Isn't it funny how a Christian will always believe that proper decorum or behavior will not be an issue under any circumstance, yet frequently getting blindsided by a lost of composure. Very similar to the ability to control the tongue. 

 

20 hours ago, farouk said:

@D. Adrien James in his epistle has a lot to say about the tongue.........

We are all wiser after the fact, and I've seen plenty of unpleasantness among Christians. But overall, if you keep close to the instructions of scripture you can expect the Lord to help. But there is one sure thing - we will be tested. Here is a rather gory story to show that the Lord has not forgotten Ananias and Saphira. Believing in Local Assembly, I joined a Methodist House meeting when I moved in 1990. I did not attend their main Sunday meetings as it was worldly and subject to the Nicolaitan system. For six years we met and although most of the 16 saints who attended were lukewarm. there was harmony and order. Then the test came. A young born-again lad who was baptized, started meeting with us. After 6 months or so he sought audience with some of us older brothers and admitted to being an active homosexual. Following Matthew 18, we fellowshipped and encouraged the young man for 13 months without exposing him. But to no avail.

He finally told us off in no uncertain terms and moved into an apartment with a male prostitute. The two of us who had tried to help this brother then brought it before the whole Assembly. The decision was to think about it for a week, pray about it and return with a verdict according to 1st Corinthians 5. 12 of the 16 thought excommunication was unloving and voted to leave things as thy were. The remaining 4 pointed out that excommunication was not a form of punishment, but a protection for the Church from leaven. WE were outvoted and the 4 were not only castigated by the 12, but in our smallish town, we faced complete isolation.

Four years later, 2 of the 4 who objected and returned to the meeting and split with us 2 - my wife and I. We paid the price. No contact whatsoever and no greetings when meeting in the shops. In 2008 I was offered a job in the Middle East and only returned in 2014. By circumstance, the brother who had held out with us for 4 years, met me. What he told me shocked even an old soldier like me. In the 18 years since the Assembly had made its decision on keeping an active homosexual, 3 were dead rather early, and 3 solid marriages had disintegrated due to sexual infidelity.

Make of this what you like, but in safe Central Europe with very good medical care and low crime, the numbers were about three times the average. The Lord made a promise in 1st Corinthians 3:16-17;

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The word "ye" is plural, so the Lord was not talking to the individual. He was addressing the Church. But "any man" is singular. That is, ONE MAN can defile the Assembly. It reminds me of Joshua 7 and the valley of Archor. ONE MAN hid idols in his tent. But God was angry at Israel. They in turn did not ask of the Lord and 36 (3 X 12 - the number of God's people) were slain and Gods people wer defated and disgraced. ONE MAN ....