Book of Daniel

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 Of the Tribe of Judah and consorts who were set free by Cyrus, only 2.5% had a heart for God's purpose to have a Land, an House and an expression on earth. 97% stayed on in Babylon. They are those of the Book of Esther. God saved them in their crisis, but His name and/or title are never mentioned in Esther. Conversely, God attaches His Name, Presence and the title of "Israel" to those who returned to ace the hardship of the Temple rebuild. In Matthew Chapter 13, our Lord PURPOSELY hid the mysteries of the Kingdom from Israel. I would venture that God had every reason to hide the prophecies of Daniel. Israel refused the Kingdom and in Chapter 12 of Matthew, called the Chiefest of Prophets an emissary of Beelzebub. That is not the way to get God to reveal things to you.

The matter of the timing is relatively easy, even if the numbers are disputed. Weeks, or "sevens" are given in Chapter 9. The time is recorded by both secular records and the Bible (and Sir Anderson's scholarly work). The sixty nine weeks lead us to the week of Christ's passion. The events of the seventieth "seven" have no record in history. It is not a valid argument to say that Christ fulfilled things because the prophecy requires "Daniel's People" to fulfill them. Thus, the gap between the sixty-ninth seven and the seventieth seven is as large a gap as Joel's prophecy that took place but was not fulfilled on Pentecost That is, God often, not always, makes a prophecy without the time where the object of the prophecy is outside of His will or workings. Thus, the seventieth seven has not started yet.

Acts 15:14-16 sets the time for Israel's restoration - AFTER the completion of the Church. But God uses the tern "latter day" or "latter days" more for the end of the age. In Ezekiel 38:8 the "latter days" are when Israel is gathered to their Land and made to dwell safely. But in verse 16 he predicts the battle of Magog, which we know from Revelation 20 to be a thousand years later, ALSO as in the "latter days". I would say that the context must decide the "latter days" - not a fixed concept.

I cannot agree to a "mistake" with the 1260 days. In Daniel 4 God makes the claim that He is sovereign in the affairs of heaven and earth and "no ne can stay His hand". He either set forth 1260 days and it has remained, or He has purposely mislead His people for 2,500 years. Every one must make a choice. Either God is Who and What He claims, or we will do well to pack away the Bible. I do not say that our translations are without mistakes, but the diligent scholars have uncovered them. There is no reason to dispute the 1260 days, especially as it is so prolific in Revelation.

Not so with the two other figures - the 1290 and the 2335. There is no appropriate scripture to explain them. Truly, they are locked away until something happens that makes us say "Ah-ha". So that what is meant!"

Although we disagree, I respect your studies and your conclusions.

 

 

 

Thank you! That is why we are all in this Forum- to exchange ideas and interpretations. I have mentioned at least 100 times that 99% of today’s accepted interpretations are more like you have mentioned… they have been developed largely since the Reformation period, and imo, certainly corrupted by the RCC. 
 
By me saying I spent 5 years unpacking Daniel to arrive at these very different interpretations does NOT make them right, but I do believe they represent the prophetic story of the coming Messiah (His first coming). It is almost impossible to convince anyone of these very new interpretations because one would have to evaluate it “alone.” Meaning,  a quick mention of a new interpretation for an isolated verse will not be enough to show how it connects with the other (many) new interpretations that offer a consistent prophetic storyline  through all 12 chapters. 
 

But that is obviously due to the limitations of having to respond to “a” verse or “a” few verses in Daniel. Further,  it is very difficult for people to consider another interpretation that almost all believe have already been discovered. 
 

I understand your comment re: that God purposefully blinded the eyes of His people from recognizing He was their Messiah. But this was His plan from the foundation of the world. And after His resurrection, He would point His disciples to the OT asking them to study the many, many Scriptures that spoke of His coming. Meaning, the prophecies - even in Daniel were “hidden from them temporarily- until AFTER HIS DEATH.

 

The most important subject in Daniel is the chapter 9 prophecy of the coming Messiah. He tells us the total length of the prophecy- 70 weeks of years or 490 literal years. He tells us the time it begins, and He describes what He will fulfill in the final week of the 70 weeks. He tells us He will arrive after 7 and 62 weeks are completed (this can ONLY mean He arrives on the first day of the 70th week. He tells us He will be “cut off (crucified) in the middle of the week (has to be the last week since He would arrive AFTER the end of 69 weeks). 
Although in my book I state that THERE ARE NO EXTRA-BIBLICAL source records used to arrive at these new interpretations, I see that you have mentioned above that secular records are used to arrive at “their” interpretations (gap theory). Although there is NO basis in the entire Scriptures that even hint of separating this or another time prophecy (this gap theory came right out of the mind of the RCC in the late 16th century). But if you want to use our history books then please do- they certainly confirm the dates the Messiah arrives, the length of His ministry, the time of the cross in the middle of the last week. 
 

What is amazing to me is that today’s accepted interpretations for chapter 9 (and most other chapters) use an “historical” approach to interpreting Daniel. However, when the very difficult verses in the Hebrew chapters fail to keep in line with “our history books” they send most  their interpretations to the future- which can not be proven. Well, that is because these difficult verses in Daniel MUSTA BE INTERPRETED AD THEY APPLY OR RELATE TO THE (then) COMING MESSIAH. They speak if Him - Daniel is not a history book. 
 

Anyway, it is nice to receive everyone’s comments on Daniel.
 

Two more comments: Completely forget MY interpretations (just considering chapter 9), BUT also completely forget ANY of what you have learned from other scholarly / academic / talented theologians that have given us “today’s accepted.” Try and interpret chapter 9 ON YOUR OWN BUT WITH ONE RULE: try and interpret those verses as if they were speaking about the Messiah. See if you can find Him in these verses. And after you do that, you can compare your new interpretations to OUR ACTUAL  BOOKS AT THE TIME OF THE MESSIAH. They will match perfectly. 

Another alternative is for you to provide me with your contact information  (or if that is uncomfortable, a PO Box or another “safe” physical address, and I will have Amazon send you an authors copy of the book for you to review the support for these new interpretations. No cost to you at all. If you enjoy the read and you feel you mind want to recommend it to your friends, colleagues, church members, etc., because it offers so many new interpretations, great. If not, no problem at all. 
 

PS: If interested, you can send me the mailing information in a PM. This is an offer to those interested in Daniel within this forum. 
God bless, Charlie 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you! That is why we are all in this Forum- to exchange ideas and interpretations. I have mentioned at least 100 times that 99% of today’s accepted interpretations are more like you have mentioned… they have been developed largely since the Reformation period, and imo, certainly corrupted by the RCC. 
 
By me saying I spent 5 years unpacking Daniel to arrive at these very different interpretations does NOT make them right, but I do believe they represent the prophetic story of the coming Messiah (His first coming). It is almost impossible to convince anyone of these very new interpretations because one would have to evaluate it “alone.” Meaning,  a quick mention of a new interpretation for an isolated verse will not be enough to show how it connects with the other (many) new interpretations that offer a consistent prophetic storyline  through all 12 chapters. 
 

But that is obviously due to the limitations of having to respond to “a” verse or “a” few verses in Daniel. Further,  it is very difficult for people to consider another interpretation that almost all believe have already been discovered. 
 

I understand your comment re: that God purposefully blinded the eyes of His people from recognizing He was their Messiah. But this was His plan from the foundation of the world. And after His resurrection, He would point His disciples to the OT asking them to study the many, many Scriptures that spoke of His coming. Meaning, the prophecies - even in Daniel were “hidden from them temporarily- until AFTER HIS DEATH.

 

The most important subject in Daniel is the chapter 9 prophecy of the coming Messiah. He tells us the total length of the prophecy- 70 weeks of years or 490 literal years. He tells us the time it begins, and He describes what He will fulfill in the final week of the 70 weeks. He tells us He will arrive after 7 and 62 weeks are completed (this can ONLY mean He arrives on the first day of the 70th week. He tells us He will be “cut off (crucified) in the middle of the week (has to be the last week since He would arrive AFTER the end of 69 weeks). 
Although in my book I state that THERE ARE NO EXTRA-BIBLICAL source records used to arrive at these new interpretations, I see that you have mentioned above that secular records are used to arrive at “their” interpretations (gap theory). Although there is NO basis in the entire Scriptures that even hint of separating this or another time prophecy (this gap theory came right out of the mind of the RCC in the late 16th century). But if you want to use our history books then please do- they certainly confirm the dates the Messiah arrives, the length of His ministry, the time of the cross in the middle of the last week. 
 

What is amazing to me is that today’s accepted interpretations for chapter 9 (and most other chapters) use an “historical” approach to interpreting Daniel. However, when the very difficult verses in the Hebrew chapters fail to keep in line with “our history books” they send most  their interpretations to the future- which can not be proven. Well, that is because these difficult verses in Daniel MUSTA BE INTERPRETED AD THEY APPLY OR RELATE TO THE (then) COMING MESSIAH. They speak if Him - Daniel is not a history book. 
 

Anyway, it is nice to receive everyone’s comments on Daniel.
 

Two more comments: Completely forget MY interpretations (just considering chapter 9), BUT also completely forget ANY of what you have learned from other scholarly / academic / talented theologians that have given us “today’s accepted.” Try and interpret chapter 9 ON YOUR OWN BUT WITH ONE RULE: try and interpret those verses as if they were speaking about the Messiah. See if you can find Him in these verses. And after you do that, you can compare your new interpretations to OUR ACTUAL  BOOKS AT THE TIME OF THE MESSIAH. They will match perfectly. 

Another alternative is for you to provide me with your contact information  (or if that is uncomfortable, a PO Box or another “safe” physical address, and I will have Amazon send you an authors copy of the book for you to review the support for these new interpretations. No cost to you at all. If you enjoy the read and you feel you mind want to recommend it to your friends, colleagues, church members, etc., because it offers so many new interpretations, great. If not, no problem at all. 
 

PS: If interested, you can send me the mailing information in a PM. This is an offer to those interested in Daniel within this forum. 
God bless, Charlie 

 

 

 

Thank you for your offer. Most kind of you. My little library at home has already quite some commentary on Daniel, but I'll consider your offer.

On the way to Emmaus our Lord clearly stated that the scriptures reveal Him. Daniel is no exception. In this you are correct. But which Messiah is revealed? It is not Messiah for the forgiveness of Israel's sins, although that is part of it. It is Messiah for changing world government. The figure of Chapter 2 spans all the governments that Israel will know, until they are restored to David's House. And Chapter 4 shows a Tree hewn down at the will of the Almighty - later to be replaced by another Tree - the Olive Tree. (A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom - Judg 9, Daniel 4, Ezek 31, etc.). The riddle of Chapter 2 is twofold;
1. How can four consecutive kingdoms be destroyed by the defeat of one?
2. Who are the People that will occupy the kingdom if not Daniel's people?

The riddle of Chapter 4 is; how can the Kingdom of Heaven become like Babylon as the Tree of Daniel 2 and the Tree of Matthew 13 show?

I judge these to be the revelations that pertain to the Church!

To Israel the question is even more complicated. They are, at that time, a defeated Nation. The curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 have come upon them. The are driven from their Land, and they have disgraced their God - for He is never, in the whole Book of Daniel, called the God of EARTH! Of heaven ... Yes, but God of heaven AND earth, He is not. What a disgrace for Israel. And the future looks even bleaker. One Covenant with Jehovah PROMISES them the Land thy have now lost. The second Covenant PROMISES their ejection from it. They have put God's honor at stake. On what basis will they restore God's honor?

These are the burning questions that Daniel's prophecies must address. 

[Dennis1209]

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Many would agree we are living in the time of the end, and this book is now unsealing. Sealing the book can imply either not giving any more information or it will not be understood until the appropriate time; I prefer the latter. The question is, is this knowledge secular technology or Biblical knowledge? But I digress.

Numbers (1,260, 1290, and 1335) are being discussed, all related to the official starting point of the seven-year tribulation. The time clock begins with Israel signing a seven-year peace treaty with Death and Hell, Antichrist confirms.

The Jewish lunar calendar is a bit more complex than our Gregorian calendar, and the Bible uses the lunar 360-day year.

The Jewish Calendar Year - Chabad.org

The Tribulation is divided into two halves: Daniel's 70th Week (seven 360-day years) and the time of Jacob’s trouble (Time, times, and half a time). 1,260 + 1,260 = seven years.

With that observation, what is the reason for these extensions or markers past the seven-year Tribulation? One way I have looked at those extensions is to bring in the millennium and who will be allowed to enter the kingdom of Heaven,

When will the Sheep and Goat Judgments occur, and how long will that take? Before the kingdom commences, appointments, responsibilities, and assignments must be made (kingdom government). The glorious land must be cleansed, and the Image of the Beast-Temple and all that it entails must be dealt with.

The Antichrist and False Prophet will not see the Great White Throne judgment; they are pre-judged and will be the first residents of the Lake of Fire. Satan will be chained and bound for a thousand years. I propose a view of these seven-year extensions for establishing the kingdom of Christ.

@Revelation Man mentioned Daniel 2:43, the seed of men. That word is unusual; why not the children of men, prodigies, descendants, etc.?

Old Testament

They will mix with one another in marriage; the last two words are literally ‘by the seed of men’ (bizraʿ ʾănāšāʾ), an unusual expression, reminiscent of the prohibition to mix seed in the field (Lev. 19:19).^[1]

zeraʿ (זֶרַע) 2233 (2446) 229×, n., seed; semen; descendants, offspring.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15)

Whichever word one chooses (sperm, descendant, prodigy), there is a seed war from the beginning to the end.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. (Daniel 2:43)

I think of the possibility of sexual overtones in the above verse. Whomever “they” are, they are mingling with the seed of men (to be mixed—to mix—to be changed). This word occurs only twice: Daniel 2:41 and 43.

Jesus’ birth was supernatural, and the whole Bible is supernatural. Satan mimics everything our Lord does. Satan will have his satanic trinity, Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. Satan will spawn his seed (children of darkness) literally. He knows he is vastly outnumbered 2-1.

Every culture after the Table of Nations (independently) had their belief in a global flood, demi-gods, and Titians; how did that come about? In every myth, there is at least a kernel of truth.

At any rate, it is exciting to see prophecy align and unfold in our lifetime.

 

 

---

^[1] Baldwin, Joyce G. 1978. Daniel: An Introduction and Commentary. Vol. 23. Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

Many would agree we are living in the time of the end, and this book is now unsealing. Sealing the book can imply either not giving any more information or it will not be understood until the appropriate time; I prefer the latter. The question is, is this knowledge secular technology or Biblical knowledge? But I digress.

Numbers (1,260, 1290, and 1335) are being discussed, all related to the official starting point of the seven-year tribulation. The time clock begins with Israel signing a seven-year peace treaty with Death and Hell, Antichrist confirms.

The Jewish lunar calendar is a bit more complex than our Gregorian calendar, and the Bible uses the lunar 360-day year.

The Jewish Calendar Year - Chabad.org

The Tribulation is divided into two halves: Daniel's 70th Week (seven 360-day years) and the time of Jacob’s trouble (Time, times, and half a time). 1,260 + 1,260 = seven years.

With that observation, what is the reason for these extensions or markers past the seven-year Tribulation? One way I have looked at those extensions is to bring in the millennium and who will be allowed to enter the kingdom of Heaven,

When will the Sheep and Goat Judgments occur, and how long will that take? Before the kingdom commences, appointments, responsibilities, and assignments must be made (kingdom government). The glorious land must be cleansed, and the Image of the Beast-Temple and all that it entails must be dealt with.

The Antichrist and False Prophet will not see the Great White Throne judgment; they are pre-judged and will be the first residents of the Lake of Fire. Satan will be chained and bound for a thousand years. I propose a view of these seven-year extensions for establishing the kingdom of Christ.

@Revelation Man mentioned Daniel 2:43, the seed of men. That word is unusual; why not the children of men, prodigies, descendants, etc.?

Old Testament

They will mix with one another in marriage; the last two words are literally ‘by the seed of men’ (bizraʿ ʾănāšāʾ), an unusual expression, reminiscent of the prohibition to mix seed in the field (Lev. 19:19).^[1]

zeraʿ (זֶרַע) 2233 (2446) 229×, n., seed; semen; descendants, offspring.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15)

Whichever word one chooses (sperm, descendant, prodigy), there is a seed war from the beginning to the end.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. (Daniel 2:43)

I think of the possibility of sexual overtones in the above verse. Whomever “they” are, they are mingling with the seed of men (to be mixed—to mix—to be changed). This word occurs only twice: Daniel 2:41 and 43.

Jesus’ birth was supernatural, and the whole Bible is supernatural. Satan mimics everything our Lord does. Satan will have his satanic trinity, Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. Satan will spawn his seed (children of darkness) literally. He knows he is vastly outnumbered 2-1.

Every culture after the Table of Nations (independently) had their belief in a global flood, demi-gods, and Titians; how did that come about? In every myth, there is at least a kernel of truth.

At any rate, it is exciting to see prophecy align and unfold in our lifetime.

 

 

---

^[1] Baldwin, Joyce G. 1978. Daniel: An Introduction and Commentary. Vol. 23. Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

Very nice and thank you for your thoughtful response. I understand the interpretations of Baldwin, Goldingay, Longman, Miller and Collin’s. Their commentaries reflect “today’s accepted interpretations.” And when I began this study of Daniel some 5 years ago, it was necessary for me to read and learn all of the interpretations and thoughts of these brilliant theologians, scholars and academics. And of course, these folks mentioned above are just a very few that write about Daniel. The internet provides so much information on Daniel - and that includes brilliant folks going back to the 1st century  AD. So, it was  easy for me, or anyone to find and learn the many very different interpretations on the book of Daniel. 
 

Because I had never read or studied Daniel prior to this time, I was able to try and absorb as much information as possible. I did not know it then but I really had a tremendous advantage over most people. I had absolutely no understanding of Daniel and I had NO prior opinions or knowledge that had to be considered when learning THEIR interpretations. Today, everyone that discusses Daniel has already a firm opinion and understanding on Daniel- and they largely come from some of the folks mentioned above. But if you were to go back further than the time if these folks- say at least to the time of the Reformation, THEIR interpretations do not differ much from those at that time. Certainly, they might improve on the writing style, or the attached references and sources, and they will indeed give their commentary their own “voice,” but if the truth be told, “today’s accepted interpretations” are also those of the period from the time of the Reformation. Meaning, I have found that there is very much a re-writing of the interpretations of the giants of the time of the Reformation.

BUT, what truly amazed me was, despite all of there brilliance, scholarly ability, intellectual powers, THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONSENSUS among them for so many of the critical prophetic verses in Daniel. How could this be? They all had access to the same book of Daniel AND all the interpretations, opinions and studies from their predecessors. And finally, they all had a great understanding of what actually had taken place during and after the time of Jesus. How could they possibly be so far apart on these very major prophecies? 
 

Well, I found there were “generally” two camps among these talented folks. Even though MOST (if not all) believed that these “most critical” verses  Daniel were DEFINITELY to take place in the future (our future), there was still no consensus in the details. I simply could not wrap my head around this. 
 

I decided to try and study Daniel by learning both sides - and it was extremely difficult for me. I was figuratively walking through a gauntlet between these two very talented but different sets of interpretations. And both sides were not very receptive to me accepting one side or the other as u made my way through these different prophetic verses within these 12 chapters. 
 

The bottom line- the truth (as I had found it) was to thrown away their conclusions- not their interpretations because they were more than valuable in trying to unpack Daniel. But to use their thoughts or interpretations together to try and get to the right interpretation (which of course I had NO idea what it was while going through this exercise). But all of my training (in none religious matters) would allow me to recognize patterns, options, ask questions against both sides of their arguments, etc. I was very good at this in my career.
 

Regardless of their futurist or preterist  viewpoint, it was their “approach” to interpreting Daniel that was flawed and caused both sides to misinterpret many of the critical verses in Daniel.

They applied a “historical” approach where they attempted to match the actors and events in Daniel to those found in OUR HISTORY BOOKS. That worked fine in identifying the 4 kingdoms and their kings, but would fail miserably when Daniel began speaking in more of a spiritual way— those that spoke of God’s plan of salvation and NOT following a “normal” path within our history books. And when then were found to fall away from our history books, they (interpretations) would be thrown far into the future (even still our future). 
 

But the book of Daniel is not about the end times, and IF we try and interpret Daniel as it relates to OUR MESSIAH and how these prophetic verses speak directly to His first coming and His plan of salvation, we will not see a repeat of the same interpretations that are found from those from the time of the Reformation to today. 
 

Dennis, the 70 weeks of years has ended in 33/34  AD. The Messiah arrived and was baptized in the Jordan on the very first day of the 70th week. He was crucified 3.5 years into the last week. There is no 7 year tribulation period, there is no boogeyman or anti/ Christ figure coming at the beginning of this fictitious 7 years. Chapter 9 is all about the Messiah during His first coming.

Regarding the verses in chapter 2, the Stone(Messiah) in 2:34 will break apart the iron and the clay (only) within the symbolic feet of pagan Rome. Verses 2:41-43 discuss what takes place AFTER the Stone strikes the feet. Now, there is a separation of the two types of clay that were kept within the iron feet. Now, the 10 toes would no longer be kept within the iron feet. You can see these results in chapter 7. Now, the seed of men (Jews) who would start God’s church after the cross would go out into the Roman Empire preaching the Good News. The church would grow exponentially, and come to be ruled and controlled by the Gentiles. They would bring in idolatry and paganism. They would change the Sabbath and bring in their own practices and rituals. This is where “they will mingle but not adhere….”  The Jews would / could no longer stay within the church that had come out of the cross. It no longer reflected His teachings or His Word. Those who came to power over this powerful movement brought in paganism, etc., and the Jewish members (seed of men) could no longer accept this church. 
 

If you would like to receive a free authors copy of my book, please provide me with a physical address and it will be sent to you directly from Amazon. No cost to you. You can PM me the mailing information. If you enjoy the new interpretations AND the comments behind them, great. If not, no problem . 
 

It is impossible to provide the reasoning and supporting thoughts behind these truly new interpretations. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Very nice and thank you for your thoughtful response. I understand the interpretations of Baldwin, Goldingay, Longman, Miller and Collin’s. Their commentaries reflect “today’s accepted interpretations.” And when I began this study of Daniel some 5 years ago, it was necessary for me to read and learn all of the interpretations and thoughts of these brilliant theologians, scholars and academics. And of course, these folks mentioned above are just a very few that write about Daniel. The internet provides so much information on Daniel - and that includes brilliant folks going back to the 1st century  AD. So, it was  easy for me, or anyone to find and learn the many very different interpretations on the book of Daniel. 
 

Because I had never read or studied Daniel prior to this time, I was able to try and absorb as much information as possible. I did not know it then but I really had a tremendous advantage over most people. I had absolutely no understanding of Daniel and I had NO prior opinions or knowledge that had to be considered when learning THEIR interpretations. Today, everyone that discusses Daniel has already a firm opinion and understanding on Daniel- and they largely come from some of the folks mentioned above. But if you were to go back further than the time if these folks- say at least to the time of the Reformation, THEIR interpretations do not differ much from those at that time. Certainly, they might improve on the writing style, or the attached references and sources, and they will indeed give their commentary their own “voice,” but if the truth be told, “today’s accepted interpretations” are also those of the period from the time of the Reformation. Meaning, I have found that there is very much a re-writing of the interpretations of the giants of the time of the Reformation.

BUT, what truly amazed me was, despite all of there brilliance, scholarly ability, intellectual powers, THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONSENSUS among them for so many of the critical prophetic verses in Daniel. How could this be? They all had access to the same book of Daniel AND all the interpretations, opinions and studies from their predecessors. And finally, they all had a great understanding of what actually had taken place during and after the time of Jesus. How could they possibly be so far apart on these very major prophecies? 
 

Well, I found there were “generally” two camps among these talented folks. Even though MOST (if not all) believed that these “most critical” verses  Daniel were DEFINITELY to take place in the future (our future), there was still no consensus in the details. I simply could not wrap my head around this. 
 

I decided to try and study Daniel by learning both sides - and it was extremely difficult for me. I was figuratively walking through a gauntlet between these two very talented but different sets of interpretations. And both sides were not very receptive to me accepting one side or the other as u made my way through these different prophetic verses within these 12 chapters. 
 

The bottom line- the truth (as I had found it) was to thrown away their conclusions- not their interpretations because they were more than valuable in trying to unpack Daniel. But to use their thoughts or interpretations together to try and get to the right interpretation (which of course I had NO idea what it was while going through this exercise). But all of my training (in none religious matters) would allow me to recognize patterns, options, ask questions against both sides of their arguments, etc. I was very good at this in my career.
 

Regardless of their futurist or preterist  viewpoint, it was their “approach” to interpreting Daniel that was flawed and caused both sides to misinterpret many of the critical verses in Daniel.

They applied a “historical” approach where they attempted to match the actors and events in Daniel to those found in OUR HISTORY BOOKS. That worked fine in identifying the 4 kingdoms and their kings, but would fail miserably when Daniel began speaking in more of a spiritual way— those that spoke of God’s plan of salvation and NOT following a “normal” path within our history books. And when then were found to fall away from our history books, they (interpretations) would be thrown far into the future (even still our future). 
 

But the book of Daniel is not about the end times, and IF we try and interpret Daniel as it relates to OUR MESSIAH and how these prophetic verses speak directly to His first coming and His plan of salvation, we will not see a repeat of the same interpretations that are found from those from the time of the Reformation to today. 
 

Dennis, the 70 weeks of years has ended in 33/34  AD. The Messiah arrived and was baptized in the Jordan on the very first day of the 70th week. He was crucified 3.5 years into the last week. There is no 7 year tribulation period, there is no boogeyman or anti/ Christ figure coming at the beginning of this fictitious 7 years. Chapter 9 is all about the Messiah during His first coming.

Regarding the verses in chapter 2, the Stone(Messiah) in 2:34 will break apart the iron and the clay (only) within the symbolic feet of pagan Rome. Verses 2:41-43 discuss what takes place AFTER the Stone strikes the feet. Now, there is a separation of the two types of clay that were kept within the iron feet. Now, the 10 toes would no longer be kept within the iron feet. You can see these results in chapter 7. Now, the seed of men (Jews) who would start God’s church after the cross would go out into the Roman Empire preaching the Good News. The church would grow exponentially, and come to be ruled and controlled by the Gentiles. They would bring in idolatry and paganism. They would change the Sabbath and bring in their own practices and rituals. This is where “they will mingle but not adhere….”  The Jews would / could no longer stay within the church that had come out of the cross. It no longer reflected His teachings or His Word. Those who came to power over this powerful movement brought in paganism, etc., and the Jewish members (seed of men) could no longer accept this church. 
 

If you would like to receive a free authors copy of my book, please provide me with a physical address and it will be sent to you directly from Amazon. No cost to you. You can PM me the mailing information. If you enjoy the new interpretations AND the comments behind them, great. If not, no problem . 
 

It is impossible to provide the reasoning and supporting thoughts behind these truly new interpretations. 
 

Thanks, Charlie 

 

I appreciate your thoughts, the work that went into your book, and your interpretation of Daniel. Not to be argumentative, I do not interpret it that way. I consider that thinking to be reformed from the original. I am sure you know church history, and I side with the early church fathers and their theology.

Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.) was probably the first major Reformed influencer and theologian. His views drastically differed from those of the early church fathers and anti-Nicene fathers (mainstream). For brevity, here are only two of dozens of examples of non-Reformed theology from the early church beliefs in the Book of Daniel. I will not cite Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Ignatius.

So Daniel has spoken of two abominations. The first is of destruction. The other is of desolation. What is the abomination of destruction, but that which Antiochus established there at the time? And what is the abomination of desolation, but that which will be universal when the Antichrist comes? Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.184; extended discussion: 1.553–1.555, 3.158–3.160, 5.177–5.191, 5.208–5.210, 5.178–5.191.^[1]

Once this Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.560.^[2]

There were centuries of Catholic suppression during the Dark Ages when owning a personal copy of the Bible was punishable by death. The only scripture allowed came from a Catholic priest, read in Latin, that the pew did not know the language, and was interpreted by the pulpit. Then came the Reformation, shortly followed by the invention of the printing press. The Bible was the first book ever mass-produced.

The Reformation produced “reformed theology” and splits in the church over doctrine and theology, forming the many interpretations, denominations, and sub-denominations we see today. Reformed thinking of what and who?

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

In preterist thinking, when did this occur? 

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)

 

---

^[1] Bercot, David W., ed. 1998. “Daniel, Book Of.” In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers, 189. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

^[2] Bercot, David W., ed. 1998. “Antichrist.” In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers, 23. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

[AdHoc]

@Dennis1209 @Charlie744 thanks for your contributions. I have found that the reason for differing understandings of Daniel lies with three main reasons. Some have been  mentioned already.
1. The student was taught something before he dealt only with the words and grammar. That is, he enters the study of Daniel with prejudice.
2. The student is missing the big picture. Chapter 2, for instance, has four world powers, but two more, Egypt and Assyria, were just as valid and studying all six word powers shows some necessary truths. But Daniel actually begins in Genesis 1:26-28 and ends in Revelation 22:4-5.
3 The student is mixes God's Old Testament economy with the that of the New. From multiple scriptures it is evident that the Church was not revealed to the prophets of Old, and Daniel addresses Gentile kings and "Daniel's People" - Israel. The ties and numbers given in Daniel are NOT for the Church. The furthest forward a Christian may look at events is 2nd Thessalonians 2 and the "revelaing" of the man of sin. His revealing, of course (for he must establish his reputation) is probably years before him taking office as political monarch of the world. The Christian is NOT given signs except the parable of the Fig Tree's Leaves. The Christian is to live by FAITH and so times, dates and events help him not a bit except to anger God. Note Paul's prayer in 1st Thessalonians 5. He prays that the Thessalonians be kept "whole" until the presence of the Lord. And his use of the three parts of man show that he meant "KEPT ALIVE" - for in death a man's parts are rent apart.

Trying to fit Daniel to world events, for the Christian, is vain. The Christian is told over and over again to "watch" MORALLY. The Christian has a HEAD while Israel have a KING. Israel has David's House. The believer who makes up the Church has has nothing to do with David's House. He, being CHRIST'S is "SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29).

And then there is one more blatant reason for a wrong approach to Daniel. It is the belief that Christianity will start as a small seed and grow to fill the earth. That is, large amounts of Christianity are essentially "Kingdom Now". Daniel predicts a FUTURE Kingdom achieved at the end of days by a single massive military move. But perhaps 80% of Christianity have worldly aspirations. They are building reputations, institutes and organizations. THEY CAN'T HAVE DANIEL FULFILLED IN THE FUTURE. IT MUST BE PAST TENSE. To contemplate the end and ultimate failure of their organizations when the Beast comes is too horrible to contemplate. This failure in timing is already apparent in the letters to the Thessalonians. Some were teaching the rapture and the Great Tribulation as already past. 1,000 years of Roman Catholicism has "leavened the WHOLE".

No doubt, some of Daniel is mysterious. But  God has not hidden the language. He has shut the book for Daniel's People. If we go in with the language only, 80% of the Book is open. God gives the INDICATORS to ISRAEL of their RESTORATION. But it is only AFTER they chose a Gentile Messiah. The Church is given VIGILANCE in obedience, love, righteousness and patience.

[AdHoc]

@Charlie744 @Dennis1209

To try to save this thread, I propose that each interested poster post an abbreviated comment on what is probably the most discussed section of Daniel - the following text. I will start.

 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:23–27)

1. I have used the KJV - the Bible of the Reformation. It is a neutral Bible using the Received Texts. It is not perfect but its pedigree is good. The 49 scholars who did the job had no doctrinal agenda. King James wanted out from the power of the Pope and was not interested in doctrine. The 49 scholars, divided into 7 groups of seven, were under immense peer pressure. Somebody might favor another translation, or be a adherent of the Alexandrian Texts. Please ... do use your favorite

2. The prophecy is about, and directed at, "Daniel's people". It thus has little to do with the Nations and nothing to do with the Church.

3. The six goals of the 70 "sevens" is the restoration of Israel and subsequent righteous living so that never again will Israel be ejected from their Land. Therefore the focus is again Israel - not Messiah, not the Nations and not the Church

4. A starting date is given. The "sevens", as it turned out, are "day-for-a-year" - a scheme used by God for Israel's wilderness wandering and Israel's Babylonian captivity.

5. As specific events are named, and "sevens" are given as the unit, one day, 1/360th, is not considered. Therefore the word "AFTER threescore and two weeks" means at the end of the sixty ninth seven but not part of the seventieth seven

6. Verse 26 defines the nationality of the man of sin. He is a "Prince". He is a Prince that "shall come". He shall be a a Prince of a certain "people". This people will be the people who destroy the sanctuary. They must be Romans. Therefore the Prince, who shall come, must be a Roman. This is supported by Daniel 2 where the last Kingdom is Rome. It is supported by Revelation 17. He is one of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Rome ruled then. He is one of five who are already dead. Among these 5 is Nero. In Bible Numeric the only NAME of a MAN among these kings which gives a total of six-hundred-and-sixty-six is Nero Caesar. He comes out of the "sea" -a gentile. He comes out of Bottomless Pit - he must be resurrected. He is the "eighth" - te number of resurrection. He is a seasoned leader having once ruled Rome with cunning and ruthless tactics. There are a number of cities that claim to be on seven hills, but only one that was the Capital of a world empire - Rome. 

7. Verse 27 defines the Covenant. It is THE covenant. I am aware of the dispute over the article, but the internal evidence IMPLIES a specific Covenant - the one with the "Daily Oblation". Only one Covenant has the daily oblation - that of Law at Sinai. It is also the only Covenant that could be called "Leaves of the Fig Tree". Leaves are the "garment" of the Tree which Adam transferred to himself. A "garment is one's WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). If Judah is the Fig Tree then thee "Leaves" of Matthew 24 must be WORKS of LAW. The daily oblation needs the Temple. This verse also thus implies a third Temple - which is confirmed in in Revelation 11 and 2nd Thessalonians 2.

It is a common scheme of things for God to skip over events not pertaining to a prophecy. Joel's prophecy, HALF of which was accomplished on Pentecost Day is an example. the second half must wait at least 2,000 years. Thus, it is fully in harmony and already used in prophecy to have a "gap"

This understanding has used scripture to explain scripture. It has used the long-standing words and grammar. Nothing was twisted. It has no agenda for the Christian. It is a prophecy by a Hebrew, in Hebrew, for the Hebrews ...

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@Charlie744 @Dennis1209

To try to save this thread, I propose that each interested poster post an abbreviated comment on what is probably the most discussed section of Daniel - the following text. I will start.

 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:23–27)

1. I have used the KJV - the Bible of the Reformation. It is a neutral Bible using the Received Texts. It is not perfect but its pedigree is good. The 49 scholars who did the job had no doctrinal agenda. King James wanted out from the power of the Pope and was not interested in doctrine. The 49 scholars, divided into 7 groups of seven, were under immense peer pressure. Somebody might favor another translation, or be a adherent of the Alexandrian Texts. Please ... do use your favorite

2. The prophecy is about, and directed at, "Daniel's people". It thus has little to do with the Nations and nothing to do with the Church.

3. The six goals of the 70 "sevens" is the restoration of Israel and subsequent righteous living so that never again will Israel be ejected from their Land. Therefore the focus is again Israel - not Messiah, not the Nations and not the Church

4. A starting date is given. The "sevens", as it turned out, are "day-for-a-year" - a scheme used by God for Israel's wilderness wandering and Israel's Babylonian captivity.

5. As specific events are named, and "sevens" are given as the unit, one day, 1/360th, is not considered. Therefore the word "AFTER threescore and two weeks" means at the end of the sixty ninth seven but not part of the seventieth seven

6. Verse 26 defines the nationality of the man of sin. He is a "Prince". He is a Prince that "shall come". He shall be a a Prince of a certain "people". This people will be the people who destroy the sanctuary. They must be Romans. Therefore the Prince, who shall come, must be a Roman. This is supported by Daniel 2 where the last Kingdom is Rome. It is supported by Revelation 17. He is one of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Rome ruled then. He is one of five who are already dead. Among these 5 is Nero. In Bible Numeric the only NAME of a MAN among these kings which gives a total of six-hundred-and-sixty-six is Nero Caesar. He comes out of the "sea" -a gentile. He comes out of Bottomless Pit - he must be resurrected. He is the "eighth" - te number of resurrection. He is a seasoned leader having once ruled Rome with cunning and ruthless tactics. There are a number of cities that claim to be on seven hills, but only one that was the Capital of a world empire - Rome. 

7. Verse 27 defines the Covenant. It is THE covenant. I am aware of the dispute over the article, but the internal evidence IMPLIES a specific Covenant - the one with the "Daily Oblation". Only one Covenant has the daily oblation - that of Law at Sinai. It is also the only Covenant that could be called "Leaves of the Fig Tree". Leaves are the "garment" of the Tree which Adam transferred to himself. A "garment is one's WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). If Judah is the Fig Tree then thee "Leaves" of Matthew 24 must be WORKS of LAW. The daily oblation needs the Temple. This verse also thus implies a third Temple - which is confirmed in in Revelation 11 and 2nd Thessalonians 2.

It is a common scheme of things for God to skip over events not pertaining to a prophecy. Joel's prophecy, HALF of which was accomplished on Pentecost Day is an example. the second half must wait at least 2,000 years. Thus, it is fully in harmony and already used in prophecy to have a "gap"

This understanding has used scripture to explain scripture. It has used the long-standing words and grammar. Nothing was twisted. It has no agenda for the Christian. It is a prophecy by a Hebrew, in Hebrew, for the Hebrews ...

Thanks for suggesting this subject! This is a great subject which I believe has been soooooo misinterpreted (first intentionally, and it would continue as it was taught to each successive generation).

I would like to comment on this later this evening. I know it will significantly depart from “today’s accepted interpretations” but that is okay. 
 

Thanks again, Charlie 

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

@Charlie744 @Dennis1209

To try to save this thread, I propose that each interested poster post an abbreviated comment on what is probably the most discussed section of Daniel - the following text. I will start.

 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:23–27)

1. I have used the KJV - the Bible of the Reformation. It is a neutral Bible using the Received Texts. It is not perfect but its pedigree is good. The 49 scholars who did the job had no doctrinal agenda. King James wanted out from the power of the Pope and was not interested in doctrine. The 49 scholars, divided into 7 groups of seven, were under immense peer pressure. Somebody might favor another translation, or be a adherent of the Alexandrian Texts. Please ... do use your favorite

2. The prophecy is about, and directed at, "Daniel's people". It thus has little to do with the Nations and nothing to do with the Church.

3. The six goals of the 70 "sevens" is the restoration of Israel and subsequent righteous living so that never again will Israel be ejected from their Land. Therefore the focus is again Israel - not Messiah, not the Nations and not the Church

4. A starting date is given. The "sevens", as it turned out, are "day-for-a-year" - a scheme used by God for Israel's wilderness wandering and Israel's Babylonian captivity.

5. As specific events are named, and "sevens" are given as the unit, one day, 1/360th, is not considered. Therefore the word "AFTER threescore and two weeks" means at the end of the sixty ninth seven but not part of the seventieth seven

6. Verse 26 defines the nationality of the man of sin. He is a "Prince". He is a Prince that "shall come". He shall be a a Prince of a certain "people". This people will be the people who destroy the sanctuary. They must be Romans. Therefore the Prince, who shall come, must be a Roman. This is supported by Daniel 2 where the last Kingdom is Rome. It is supported by Revelation 17. He is one of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Rome ruled then. He is one of five who are already dead. Among these 5 is Nero. In Bible Numeric the only NAME of a MAN among these kings which gives a total of six-hundred-and-sixty-six is Nero Caesar. He comes out of the "sea" -a gentile. He comes out of Bottomless Pit - he must be resurrected. He is the "eighth" - te number of resurrection. He is a seasoned leader having once ruled Rome with cunning and ruthless tactics. There are a number of cities that claim to be on seven hills, but only one that was the Capital of a world empire - Rome. 

7. Verse 27 defines the Covenant. It is THE covenant. I am aware of the dispute over the article, but the internal evidence IMPLIES a specific Covenant - the one with the "Daily Oblation". Only one Covenant has the daily oblation - that of Law at Sinai. It is also the only Covenant that could be called "Leaves of the Fig Tree". Leaves are the "garment" of the Tree which Adam transferred to himself. A "garment is one's WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). If Judah is the Fig Tree then thee "Leaves" of Matthew 24 must be WORKS of LAW. The daily oblation needs the Temple. This verse also thus implies a third Temple - which is confirmed in in Revelation 11 and 2nd Thessalonians 2.

It is a common scheme of things for God to skip over events not pertaining to a prophecy. Joel's prophecy, HALF of which was accomplished on Pentecost Day is an example. the second half must wait at least 2,000 years. Thus, it is fully in harmony and already used in prophecy to have a "gap"

This understanding has used scripture to explain scripture. It has used the long-standing words and grammar. Nothing was twisted. It has no agenda for the Christian. It is a prophecy by a Hebrew, in Hebrew, for the Hebrews ...

Well, not much of a rise out of me; I pretty much agree with everything you have stated. I want to highlight a few more thoughts, though. I have thirty-three Biblical names and titles for the Antichrist. I want to add a thirty-fourth “mediator.”

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

We see everywhere Satan mimics God and will have an unholy trinity. I see the A/C as the mediator between Israel and Satan (death and hell). The False Prophet being the unholy spirit.

There is no doubt in my mind the Son of Perdition is not a Muslim or a Jew but a Gentile (rising from the sea, Rome). If the Lord does not defeat the Islamic problem before the beginning of the Tribulation, the A/C will have to be someone both the Jews and Muslims trust and respect. A King Charles type would fit the bill nicely, not inferring it is him, but someone trusted and respected by everyone. The Jews would never accept a Muslim as a Messiah. Perhaps the A/C will have Jewish connections.

I still suspect a connection between Judas Iscariot and the Antichrist, because they are the only two in the Bible named the Son of Perdition. That does not seem to be a mere coincidence to me.

The gap: The Pharisees and Jews could have and should have figured out the exact day (Palm Sunday) of the arrival of their Messiah, according to Daniel and elsewhere. I would post the math, declaration, and events, but it would be exceedingly long.

Fortunately for us Gentiles, Israel rejected their Messiah, so the kingdom of God was also offered to the Gentiles and grafted into the root and branch, based on what Jesus did on the cross. Therefore, there is a gap of some two thousand years thus far. As you know, there was a gap of about 400 silent years between covenants, but prophetic events and things happened during these so-called silent years. I would not argue a gap of unknown time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, but that is another topic.

I agree with your thoughts and opinion on the KJV. I highly recommend a free booklet titled “Bible Versions, Which is the Real Word of God:

Stewarton Bible School ... Home Page

I will say the New Testament use of the Old Testament seems to come from the use of the LXX but modified. When Jesus and the apostles quoted and alluded to OT scripture, where were they quoting and alluding from?

When I say modified, I am pointing out the discrepancies between our 1611 Hebrew KJV Bible Masoretic texts and LXX, such as removing 100 years of longevity, because the KJV translators did not think it possible. The discovery and translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls are not things we need, but they verify the accuracy and reliability of our KJV translation.

The Third Temple: Everything is ready to go for the construction of the Third Temple. They have the blueprints, implements, and priest garb, and the priests have been identified (DNA) and trained for Temple service. After years of breeding, they have finally produced the Red Heifer without spots or blemishes.

The Jews are adamant about making a sacrifice here shortly, and there is an outcry, especially since they declared war. As we know, the timing and location are the only obstacles.

It seems likely Israel's seven-year covenant with the Man of Sin may include the building of the Third Temple and sacrifice. Biblically, I see no prohibitions that the Temple cannot be built before A/C confirms (mediating) the agreement.

[Charlie744]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

@Charlie744 @Dennis1209

To try to save this thread, I propose that each interested poster post an abbreviated comment on what is probably the most discussed section of Daniel - the following text. I will start.

 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:23–27)

1. I have used the KJV - the Bible of the Reformation. It is a neutral Bible using the Received Texts. It is not perfect but its pedigree is good. The 49 scholars who did the job had no doctrinal agenda. King James wanted out from the power of the Pope and was not interested in doctrine. The 49 scholars, divided into 7 groups of seven, were under immense peer pressure. Somebody might favor another translation, or be a adherent of the Alexandrian Texts. Please ... do use your favorite

2. The prophecy is about, and directed at, "Daniel's people". It thus has little to do with the Nations and nothing to do with the Church.

I agree with you. The entire book of Daniel is meant to record the prophecies that God will include in His plan of restoration and salvation for the Jews and His city after their Babylonian conquest. However, because He knows the ending from the beginning, God will also use this ACTUAL plan of restoration / salvation for the Jews to prophecise His plan of restoration / salvation for both the Jews and the Gentiles when His people reject and crucify Him in the last week of the plan to restore / saved His people (70 weeks of years prophecy).

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

3. The six goals of the 70 "sevens" is the restoration of Israel and subsequent righteous living so that never again will Israel be ejected from their Land. Therefore the focus is again Israel - not Messiah, not the Nations and not the Church

I agree with you. The Jews had repeadedly disobeyed God and turned to idolatry for many years. Despite the pleadings of Jeremiah, they refused to repent and then it came time for God to punish His people. Thus, the book of Daniel is God's punishment for His people by the Babylonians in 606 BC. But God would NEVER abondon His people and even before the prophesied punishment, He told them He would restore them back to Jerusalem at the end of 70 years. This plan of restoration would be identified in chapter 9 as  the 70 weeks of years prophecy..... to restore everything as it was prior to their captivitty.

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

4. A starting date is given. The "sevens", as it turned out, are "day-for-a-year" - a scheme used by God for Israel's wilderness wandering and Israel's Babylonian captivity.

I do understand that almost all contend this follows the infamous "day for a year" principle, and this so called "principle" is later applied at least in 4 other time elements within Daniel, however, I do not believe this IS A VALID PRINCIPLE. Yes, it is found in Numbers and Ezekiel but that does not make it a "principle." However, not one of the time elements in Daniel should use this approach to determine the lenght of time within their respective prophecy. But this prophecy does represent 70 "sevens" or 490 literal years from Artarxexes decree in 457 BC.

 

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

5. As specific events are named, and "sevens" are given as the unit, one day, 1/360th, is not considered. Therefore the word "AFTER threescore and two weeks" means at the end of the sixty ninth seven but not part of the seventieth seven

 

25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

 

This I do not agree with at all - sorry. First, these 4 verses follow the same approach God uses in chapter 2. He initially established the "dream sequence" or the "big picture" by revealing the 4 and only 4 kingdoms what will come upon the earth (within His plan of salvation). Later in verses 41-43, He will provide the "interpretations sequence" verses which represents the "detailed" events that will take place WITHIN THOSE "dream sequence" verses. Thus, these verses in chapter 2 are not presented in chronological order. But the "dream sequence" verses establish the borders, boundaries, guidlines, restrictions, etc., for these 4 kingdoms. This is done so we can ensure all the verses coming after chapter 2 SHOULD BE PLACED WITHIN THESE SAME 4 KINGDOMS. God will use very different symbols in the later chapters but they will ALWAYS have to be placed within these same / established kingdoms of chapter 2. And one of the most important factors to consider is He is no only establishing the "physical" borders and boundaries for each of the 4 kingdoms, but He is revealing the very fixed "time borders and boundaries' for each of the 4 kingdoms.

Meaning, in chapter 9, God will ensure we understand the "time borders and boundaries" for this prophecy. He establshes this prophecy will be exactly 70 weeks (weeks of years) or 490 years. This is done at the very beginning of 9:24 - there is no or should not be any dispute on this time prophecy. Because it is similar to the chapter 2 "dream sequence" verses, it is fixed, established and the following "detail" verses (interpretation sequence verses) that will be found in these 4 verses, will be placed within these 70 years.

Verse 9:24 provides the " 6 part mission" that Jesus will fulfill DURING or within this 70 year prophecy (first "restorative" verse found within the 4 verses (24-27). Again, the book of Daniel is all about the restoration / plan of salvation for the Jews.

Verse 9:25 is the second "restorative" verse found in these 4 verses that tell us that from a certain specific date, the decree by Artaxerxes to restore and build Jerusalem (again He refers to the restoration process), the following will take place:

          1) the Messiah the Prince will arrive,

          2) streets and the walls will be rebuilt.

BOTH OF THESE TWO "RESTORATIVE" events WILL BE RESTORED WITHIN 62 nd 7 weeks after the decree. Now, God is providing us with two more "time" elements found WITHIN THE 70 weeks (9:24) along with those events that will be completed or will take place. The walls / streets / and the Temple were literally completed WITHIN THE FIRST 7 WEEKS OF THE FIRST 49 YEARS AFTER THE DECREE (457 -408 BC). This part of the prophecy spoke to the "physical" elements that were to be restored in Jerusalem after their return. And over the following 62 weeks (after the first 7 weeks), the Jews would also restore the 7 Holy Feast days, the animal sacrifices, all the cerermonies found within the Levitical system. And we know that by the time the Messiah would arrive, the Jews were fully restored AS IT WAS PRIOR TO THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY with the exception on ONE very important factor.

Just prior to the Babylonian captivity, Jeremiah would remove the Ark of the Covenant from the Sanctuary. It would never be seen again. Thus the Babylonians would not take it captive to Babylon. However, after the Jews return and after they would restore all the "physcial" elements (9:25), including the Levitical requirements, there was ONE piece of furniture still mission - the Ark of the Covenant. Therefore, in 9:25, God will tell us that the Messiah (the Ark of the Covenant - His presence) will be the final piece of furniture to be restored. When, only alfte all the "physical" and softer elements had been restored DURING THE FIRST 69 WEEKS OF THE PROPHECY. Therefore, at the END OF THE 69TH WEEK, or literally the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would arrive and be baptized in the Jordan and anointed by His Father. This last week represents the last piece of furniture in the Sanctuary that HAD TO BE RESTORED. It would begin His 7 year ministry or the most important HOLY WEEK (7 YEARS) of the prophecy.  As you can see, there is absolutely NO gap anywhere within this prophecy - the "time" elements were / are established in 9:24-25, the "restorative" elements (physical an Levitical) were also identified to be completed BEFORE THE COMING MESSIAH. 

Also, if you notice, God does, in a sense, show a "gap" in these verses, but it is WITHIN THE 70 YEAR TIME PERIOD. In 9:25, He tells us the physical elements will be completed within the first 7 weeks (49 literal years), and then He completely skips over what elements, if any, will be completed DURING THE NEXT 62 weeks or 434 literal years. But He does provide us with the understanding that AFTER THE FIRST 7 AND THEN FOLLOWING 62 WEEKS, THE EVENTS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE WITHIN THE LAST 1 WEEK or 7 literal years: those things the Messiah will fulfill DURING THE FINAL WEEK (9:24).  So, He tells us what is to be restored in the first 49 years, He is silent on the next 434 years and then He tells us what is to be restore in the final 7 years of the prophecy. He literall locks the first and the third time elements WITHIN THE 70 YEARS PROPHECY AND offers no comment regarding the largest section of the prophecy - the middle section of 434 years.

Verses 9:24-25 are the only  two "restorative verses within these 4. 

 

Now, we come to verses 9:26-27. These remaining two verses represent the two "destructive" verses found in the 4.

26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

In 9:26, God is telling us that AFTER the second "silent" section of 62 weeks or 434 literal years (can ONLY come about AFTER the first 7 weeks are completed), the following will occur, all they are all "DESTRUCTIVE" VERSES:

        1) the Messiah will be "cut off" (crucified) AFTER THE 62 weeks are completed.  We know in 9:25, the Messiah ARRIVED AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THE 7 AND 62 WEEKS. Now, we are told that He will also be crucified in the same period - after the end of the 62 week section of the prophecy. There is certainly nothing that even hints of a "gap" between week 69 and 70 whatsoever. And we should have no problem accepting that 70 comes after 69 unless there is something in the verses that tells us otherwise. But the Messiah DID ARRIVE ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE 70TH WEEK AND HE WAS CRUCIFIED IN THE MIDST "MIDDLE" OF THE LAST WEEK OF 7 YEARS.

        2) He will be "cut off" - but not for Himself - well, that can only apply to the Messiah who will sacrifice His life for many - both Jews and Gentiles that place their faith in Him for the coming 2000 years,

        3) As a result of His people rejecting Him and crucifying Him, the city and the sancturay as well as the walls, streets, etc., and the murder of some 1 million Jews will be destroyed. This would occur after God had given His people another 40 years to repent.... but they continued to reject Him. Now, God will make them (Jews who rejected HIm) completelly "desolate" from His presence. The "people of the prince WHO IS TO COME" respresents pagan Rome when in 70 AD, they would destroy everything. Later in chapter 7, we find this "prince to come" was the little horn who would sit atop the 4th kingdom beast AFTER PAGAN ROME WAS SLAIN AND ITS BODY DESTROYED. At the time of Jesus, there was no little horn. He would only come onto to the scene some 400 years after the cross. 

        4) "and to the end of the war, desolations are determined." This does NOT mean there will be war AFTER THE END OF THE TIME OF DESOLATIONS (infamous 7 year tribulation period when some mythical anti-Christ figure will come to make war). This means that, as a result of Him being rejected and crucified BY HIS PEOPLE, they will be made completely desolate with their God for over 2000 years. The "war" being spoken of here, is the war between God and the little horn of Daniel 7 an 8. It is the SPIRITUAL WAR between those that will follow the Testimony of Jesus and His Word verses the false teachings of the little horn. At the time of the end of the Gentiles, God will remove the blindness from the eyes of His people and they will go out into the world preaching the Testimony of Jesus and His Word for 3.5 years.

 

27Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

 

In 9:27, it is the Messiah (He) will will arrive on the first day of the 70th week and begin His ministry. He will indeed fulfill all the God given mission (9:24) BEFORE THE CROSS. This is NOT a true translation in the first sentence of 9:27. It should be written and interpreted (changed by the RCC in the 16th century) as the Messiah will CONFIRM (NOT CREATE A BRAND NEW COVENANT but the one identified in Jeremiah 31:31-34), DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY. These 4 verses are speaking about the 70 weeks of years prophecy - the restoration side of things and the destructive side of things as they result from His people rejected Him and crucifying Him WITHIN THE FINAL 7 YEARS OF THE PROPHECY.

 

 

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

6. Verse 26 defines the nationality of the man of sin. He is a "Prince". He is a Prince that "shall come". He shall be a a Prince of a certain "people". This people will be the people who destroy the sanctuary. They must be Romans. Therefore the Prince, who shall come, must be a Roman. This is supported by Daniel 2 where the last Kingdom is Rome. It is supported by Revelation 17.

Please see above. The "people" is pagan Rome who will destroy everything in 70 AD. The prince of these same people "who is to come" is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8,

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

 

He is one of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Rome ruled then. He is one of five who are already dead. Among these 5 is Nero. In Bible Numeric the only NAME of a MAN among these kings which gives a total of six-hundred-and-sixty-six is Nero Caesar. He comes out of the "sea" -a gentile. He comes out of Bottomless Pit - he must be resurrected. He is the "eighth" - te number of resurrection. He is a seasoned leader having once ruled Rome with cunning and ruthless tactics. There are a number of cities that claim to be on seven hills, but only one that was the Capital of a world empire - Rome. 

No, I don't see anything in Daniel that speaks to this.

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

7. Verse 27 defines the Covenant. It is THE covenant. I am aware of the dispute over the article, but the internal evidence IMPLIES a specific Covenant - the one with the "Daily Oblation". Only one Covenant has the daily oblation - that of Law at Sinai.

It is the covenent referred to in Jeremiah 31 before the Babylonian captivity. He speaks of their unrepentence, the timing of the coming of the Babylonians, the prediction of the number of years in captivity and the New Covenant God will made with His people.

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

 

It is also the only Covenant that could be called "Leaves of the Fig Tree". Leaves are the "garment" of the Tree which Adam transferred to himself. A "garment is one's WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). If Judah is the Fig Tree then thee "Leaves" of Matthew 24 must be WORKS of LAW. The daily oblation needs the Temple. This verse also thus implies a third Temple - which is confirmed in in Revelation 11 and 2nd Thessalonians 2.

I don't agree. The Temple, the Sanctuary, the Levitical ceremonies, etc., were all types and shadows of the coming Messiah. He will fulfill each and every one of them. He would do way the the need for a Temple, the Sanctuary, the sacred vessels, the animal sacrifices, etc. There would no longer be a purpose or any of the them. There purpose was fulfilled and they would no longer have any importance. Whether today's Jews continue to reject the Messiah and plan for a third Temple is meaningless. Of course they will consider it important for a third Temple - they continue to reject their Messaiah, but what they think has no bearing on what God has done.

 

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

It is a common scheme of things for God to skip over events not pertaining to a prophecy. Joel's prophecy, HALF of which was accomplished on Pentecost Day is an example. the second half must wait at least 2,000 years. Thus, it is fully in harmony and already used in prophecy to have a "gap"

T0day's accepted interpretations DO INCLUDE A GAP THEORY - THAT NO ONE SHOULD IGNORE. However, that theory only came ab0ut in the late 16th century AD - Reformation period and it was intentionally created by the Jesuits at the commission of the RCC. Read the writings of Father Ribera. The RCC has been quite successful in promoting this theory to every generation of children since that tine... and now, if you tell a thing longs enough..... Even today's Protestants have embraced it... But chapter 9 is all about the Messiah - not some mythical anti=Christ figure or a fictitious 7 year agreement, etc. God has given us the book of Daniel first for the Jews and then to the Gentiles.  

On 3/19/2024 at 11:42 AM, AdHoc said:

This understanding has used scripture to explain scripture. It has used the long-standing words and grammar. Nothing was twisted. It has no agenda for the Christian. It is a prophecy by a Hebrew, in Hebrew, for the Hebrews ...