TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted March 16 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,070 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 621 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 16 No, the Bible doesn't condemn slavery, HOWEVER it did create standards that didn't exist in the rest of the world. For example, the Bible tells masters to treat their slaves well and that mistreatment of a slave required letting the slave go free. So kindness and humanity are involved in biblical slavery. Since God tells us to love others, the horrors of slavery as we know it in America's past and elsewhere are NOT biblical and are clearly wrong. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 16 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,969 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 16 (edited) 19 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: No, the Bible doesn't condemn slavery, HOWEVER it did create standards that didn't exist in the rest of the world. For example, the Bible tells masters to treat their slaves well and that mistreatment of a slave required letting the slave go free. So kindness and humanity are involved in biblical slavery. Since God tells us to love others, the horrors of slavery as we know it in America's past and elsewhere are NOT biblical and are clearly wrong. I agree with some of that. The bible says Slave owners are to treat slaves justly and fairly knowing they have a Master in heaven who is watching (Col 4:1). Edited March 17 by Jedi4Yahweh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted March 17 Group: Servant Followers: 22 Topic Count: 289 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,648 Content Per Day: 3.37 Reputation: 5,578 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted March 17 6 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said: I often hear the argument that God condemns slavery, but the truth of the matter, there are places in the bible where God permits and justifies slavery and gives instructions on slavery practices. See the following scripture references: Lev 25:44-46, Exo 21:1-27, Deut 15:11-14. Furthermore some may argue that it was only OT practices and not allowed under NT, but we find where Paul gives instructions to Christian slave owners and slaves: Eph 6:5-8, Col 3:22-24, 1Tim 6:1-2, 1Pet 2:18, Titus 2:9-10. In addition, Paul wrote a letter to a Christian slave owner regarding how he had found one of his runaway slaves who had become a Christian and was asking the slave owner to receive him back and to treat him kindly (Philemon 1:10-16). The point I am making saying the bible condemns slavery is a very weak argument if not entirely invalid, being that slavery was a permitted practice in the bible. From my archives: The KJV Bible mentions the word slave but once, in Jeremiah, and slaves but once, in Revelation. The bondmen and bondwomen of the Israelites were servants. The Laws of Moses and Judaism actually protected and valued bondservants whose welfare was recognised as contributing to their usefulness. Far from being at the bottom of the social order, as were the poor who struggled to find gainful employment, such servants held positions of responsibility and importance. There is a strong misconception among some atheists that the OT regulations surrounding the employment of bondservants by the Israelites, be they of their own nationality or foreigners, amounted to a condoning of the worst aspects of slavery by unscrupulous traders and exploitive societies. In Exodus 21:20-21 we are informed that a master could punish a servant if necessary, but he did not have the right to kill him. If a servant died immediately after a beating, the master was guilty; but if the servant lived a day or two, the master was not punishable because he obviously did not intend to kill a servant who was worth time and money to him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,969 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17 (edited) 14 hours ago, Michael37 said: The KJV Bible mentions the word slave but once, in Jeremiah, and slaves but once, in Revelation. Clearly the hebrew & greek word for slave is used many times in both old and new testament. Just because KJV chooses to use a different word does not change the hebrew and greek definition of that word. NKJV: 'And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have--from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 'Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 'And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them as] a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor. [Lev 25:44-46 NKJV] ESV: As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. [Lev 25:44-46 ESV] KJV: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. [Lev 25:44-46 KJV] Edited March 17 by Jedi4Yahweh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted March 17 Group: Servant Followers: 22 Topic Count: 289 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,648 Content Per Day: 3.37 Reputation: 5,578 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted March 17 5 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said: Clearly the hebrew & greek word for slave is used many times in both old and new testament. Just because KJV chooses to use a different word does not change the hebrew and greek definition of that word. NKJV: 'And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have--from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 'Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 'And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them as] a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor. [Lev 25:44-46 NKJV] ESV: As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. [Lev 25:44-46 ESV] KJV: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. [Lev 25:44-46 KJV] There is good reason for translators to prefer servant over slave: Gen 24:1-4 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things. (2) And Abraham said unto his eldest servant (H5650) of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray you, your hand under my thigh: (3) And I will make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that you will not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: (4) But you will go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. Strongs H5650 עֶבֶד ‛ebed eh'-bed From H5647; a servant: - X bondage, bondman, [bond-] servant, (man-) servant. Total KJV occurrences: 800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOrangeCat Posted March 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,499 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 1,964 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17 21 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said: HOWEVER it did create standards that didn't exist in the rest of the world Yeah, that or it improved on them. Hammurabi's Code is similar to certain aspects of OT law and the source of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but Hammurabi's version was mired in issues of social standing. People of the upper class didn't live by the same law, and that was explicitly baked in. Then just as Hammurabi's law was improved upon by the OT law so was the OT law improved upon by Jesus. But getting back to slavery Exodus 21:16 doesn't seem to come up a whole lot in Biblical discussions on the topic. "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." This seems to be a pretty strong and direct condemnation against taking slaves by force. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueFollowerOfChrist Posted March 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,070 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 621 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/26/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17 45 minutes ago, AnOrangeCat said: Yeah, that or it improved on them. Hammurabi's Code is similar to certain aspects of OT law and the source of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but Hammurabi's version was mired in issues of social standing. People of the upper class didn't live by the same law, and that was explicitly baked in. Then just as Hammurabi's law was improved upon by the OT law so was the OT law improved upon by Jesus. But getting back to slavery Exodus 21:16 doesn't seem to come up a whole lot in Biblical discussions on the topic. "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." This seems to be a pretty strong and direct condemnation against taking slaves by force. True, however I think the Exodus passage more shows that stealing is wrong more than slavery is wrong. Theft is always strongly condemned in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 17 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,969 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, AnOrangeCat said: But getting back to slavery Exodus 21:16 doesn't seem to come up a whole lot in Biblical discussions on the topic. "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." This seems to be a pretty strong and direct condemnation against taking slaves by force. I would like to think that was the case. It seems according to Lev 25:44-46 that slaves were purchased from surrounding nations. This may imply contractual type servanthood, but then again it says they became life long property of the owner that could be passed down to their children. It also mentions in other scriptures if a fellow Hebrew became poor he could sell himself into slavery for 6 yrs to another Hebrew...this seems to be a 6yr contract based servanthood only for fellow Hebrews. Then there are other scriptures stating if someone stole property and were found guilty they had to pay back double for what they stole and if they could not pay it back, they were forced into slavery...which that seems sort of forced. There are also scriptures where when Israel went to war sometimes they were instructed by God to take captive surviving enemy nations and make them slaves...which also seems forced. If you read Exodus 21:16 it seems to only imply to Hebrew slaves based on verse 2 of that chapter. There were different rules for hebrew slaves vs. foreign slaves. Edited March 17 by Jedi4Yahweh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 18 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,969 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 18 18 hours ago, Michael37 said: There is good reason for translators to prefer servant over slave: Gen 24:1-4 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things. (2) And Abraham said unto his eldest servant (H5650) of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray you, your hand under my thigh: (3) And I will make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that you will not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: (4) But you will go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. Strongs H5650 עֶבֶד ‛ebed eh'-bed From H5647; a servant: - X bondage, bondman, [bond-] servant, (man-) servant. Total KJV occurrences: 800 Its clear from studying the Hebrew word for 'ebed' that servant and slave are interchangeable and mean the same thing. Being a slave or servant does not mean that they can not be put in trusted and honorable positions under their owner. For example Joseph was sold into slavery and was purchased by an official of Pharaoh. It says that Potiphar placed Joseph in a honorable position and made him oversee over his whole house. And the example of Abraham's servant Eliezer that you provided is another good example or even Hagar who belonged to Abraham and Sarah. I am sure in most cases slaves/servants were valued and treated more like trusted family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logostician Posted March 19 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 380 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 456 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19 Anyone who is a servant Jesus Christ has essentially entered into a voluntary bondservant or slave relationship to the King of Kings and Lord of lords. Paul begins the Epistle to Philemon by stating that he is a prisoner (which could be interpreted as slave) of Jesus Christ. Philemon 1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow labourer As far as worldly masters and slaves I think that Paul clearly shows that the master Philemon and slave Onesimus do not have this same relationship in the eternal Kingdom of Heaven. There is only one master in heaven. And that's Jesus. I think that the Bible's seeming indifference to slavery in the world is a call to focus on the eternal Kingdom of Heaven, rather our temporal positions in this world, which like our worldly possessions will wither away. Matthew 6:19-20 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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