Genesis 1 - When was the Ice Age?

[NConly]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:54 PM, BeyondET said:

Scripture would only mentioned the face of the deep, if that's the case. Ice melting doesn't have a face it's just melting.

I always heard water  described as deep. I have never heard ice being described as deep. Seems there was no ice.

[other one]

7 minutes ago, NConly said:

I have never heard ice being described as deep

 

[NConly]

23 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

We don't know what happened between Gen 1:1 and v.2, other than that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland,

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Seems to me the underlined word, the first word in V2 is connecting the to verses together as if they are one sentence. The word And shows the connection and does not show a long period of time between V1 AND V2. The word AND show that from the beginning the Earth was without form AND void Not Became. the earth was created without form AND void it could not become something it was already created to be.

[NConly]

5 minutes ago, other one said:

 

This does not mean it a deep jar of Ice it means it penetrates deep into tissue.

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, NConly said:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Seems to me the underlined word, the first word in V2 is connecting the to verses together as if they are one sentence.

However, in the Hebrew, there isn't a conjunction of continuation (and-kai) and conjunction of contrast (but-de) as there is in both Greek and English.  Seems all the English translations just copied the KJV, except one:

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

The LXX was translated into the Greek about 300  BC.  At that time, Koine Greek was a living language, unlike when English translations were created.  Also notice how the LXX translates "tohu";  "unsightly".  Does that describe God's original creation of earth??  I think not.

We also have 4 other English translations.  Let's focus on how they translate "tohu".

American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.
English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, can this be describing God's original creation of earth?

32 minutes ago, NConly said:

The word And shows the connection and does not show a long period of time between V1 AND V2. The word AND show that from the beginning the Earth was without form AND void Not Became. the earth was created without form AND void it could not become something it was already created to be.

Here's an explanation from a commentary:

“The analogous use, therefore, of this rare and peculiar phraseology in the verse before us may imply, according to the first sense of the term, that the world at its creation had neither received its proper shape nor was fit to be tenanted; and accordingly it is rendered in the Septuagint version 'invisible and unfurnished.' Or it may signify, according to the second acceptation in which the words are used, that the world, which had formerly been a scene of material beauty and order, was by some great convulsion plunged into a state of chaos or widespread disorder and desolation. Hence, some eminent critics, who take this view, render the clause thus: 'But (or afterward) the earth became waste and desolate.' This translation is declared by Kurtz to be inadmissible, as being contrary to the rules of grammatical construction; but Dr. McCaul has shown that the verb haayªtaah 'was,' is, in some twenty places, in this chapter, used as equivalent to 'became,' and that elsewhere it has the same signification without a following Lª - (preposition) (Isa 64:5,9). That the earth was not originally desolate seems also to be implied in Isa 45:18 “

(Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Food for thought.

 

[NConly]

35 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

However, in the Hebrew, there isn't a conjunction of continuation (and-kai) and conjunction of contrast (but-de) as there is in both Greek and English.  Seems all the English translations just copied the KJV, except one:

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

The LXX was translated into the Greek about 300  BC.  At that time, Koine Greek was a living language, unlike when English translations were created.  Also notice how the LXX translates "tohu";  "unsightly".  Does that describe God's original creation of earth??  I think not.

We also have 4 other English translations.  Let's focus on how they translate "tohu".

American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.
English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

Again, can this be describing God's original creation of earth?

Here's an explanation from a commentary:

“The analogous use, therefore, of this rare and peculiar phraseology in the verse before us may imply, according to the first sense of the term, that the world at its creation had neither received its proper shape nor was fit to be tenanted; and accordingly it is rendered in the Septuagint version 'invisible and unfurnished.' Or it may signify, according to the second acceptation in which the words are used, that the world, which had formerly been a scene of material beauty and order, was by some great convulsion plunged into a state of chaos or widespread disorder and desolation. Hence, some eminent critics, who take this view, render the clause thus: 'But (or afterward) the earth became waste and desolate.' This translation is declared by Kurtz to be inadmissible, as being contrary to the rules of grammatical construction; but Dr. McCaul has shown that the verb haayªtaah 'was,' is, in some twenty places, in this chapter, used as equivalent to 'became,' and that elsewhere it has the same signification without a following Lª - (preposition) (Isa 64:5,9). That the earth was not originally desolate seems also to be implied in Isa 45:18 “

(Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.)

Food for thought.

 

None say anything about ice or a long time between V1 and V2.

Edited April 13 by NConly
add

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, NConly said:

None say anything about ice or a long time between V1 and V2.

3 of the translations use "waste" for 'tohu', one uses "chaos" and Brenton's translation from Koine Greek was "unsightly".

Do you really want to argue that any of these words translating "tohu" are describing original creation?  Is God that clumsy or careless?

I was told by a pastor long ago who graduated seminary with 5 years of Hebrew that the plural of 'water' indicates melting water.  Which is what "Spirit hoving over the face of the waters" is about.

The verse doesn't have to say "long time".

Here's the flow of Gen 1:1,2

In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth, BUT the earth BECAME an UNINHABITABLE WASTELAND.

Think that could have happened overnight?

[BeyondET]

On 4/12/2024 at 7:40 AM, FreeGrace said:

Think of a deep ice pack.  Where would the "face" be located?  at the surface.  Now think of melting waters.  Where would the "face" be located?  at the surface.

Please answer my question.  About the Holy Spirit hovering over the face of the waters.

I don't mean like cousins.  Where are the light located?  In the expanse.

What a question.  It is the melting waters that are deep.  Just like the ice pack.

Irrelevant.  I'm talking Gen 1:2.  Where are you?

Your point?

There wouldn't be two faces one of the ice pack and another of the waters melting.

To say God was hovering thus melting the ice pack is pure speculation.

Edited April 13 by BeyondET

[BeyondET]

2 hours ago, NConly said:

I always heard water  described as deep. I have never heard ice being described as deep. Seems there was no ice.

You ever heard of the deep darkness of space?.

Edited April 13 by BeyondET

[FreeGrace]

42 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

There's wouldn't be two faces one of the ice pack and another of the waters melting.

Sure there could be.  Why do you disagree? Ice is solid and melting water is liquid so each CAN have a face.

So, please explain what "face" refers to twice.

42 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

To say God was hovering thus melting the an ice pack is pure speculation.

The Bible SAYS the Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters.  Deal with it.

No speculation whatsoever.

New International Version
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

New Living Translation
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

English Standard Version
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Berean Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

King James Bible
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

New King James Version
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

New American Standard Bible
And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

NASB 1995
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

NASB 1977 
And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Legacy Standard Bible 
And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Amplified Bible
The earth was formless and void or a waste and emptiness, and darkness was upon the face of the deep [primeval ocean that covered the unformed earth]. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

Christian Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

American Standard Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

Contemporary English Version
The earth was barren, with no form of life; it was under a roaring ocean covered with darkness. But the Spirit of God was moving over the water. 

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. 

English Revised Version
And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Spirit of God was hovering over the water.

Good News Translation
the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water. 

International Standard Version
When the earth was as yet unformed and desolate, with the surface of the ocean depths shrouded in darkness, and while the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters, 

JPS Tanakh 1917
Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

Literal Standard Version
and the earth was formless and void, and darkness [was] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God [was] fluttering on the face of the waters,

Majority Standard Bible
Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

New American Bible
and the earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters—

NET Bible
Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water.

New Revised Standard Version
the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

New Heart English Bible
Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was on the surface of the watery depths. And God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

World English Bible
The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters. 

Young's Literal Translation
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
 

See for yourself.