Before the "pre, mid post," what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/25/2024 at 7:54 AM, Dennis1209 said:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

He (man of sin, lawless one, Antichrist) and the verse above is where we derive a seven-year Tribulation. Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are the parallel passages (mid-tribulation). The seven-year Tribulation is also called “the Day of the Lord” in other prophetic passages that are too numerous to document.

Can you explain how this prophetic message of which the angel's says, the "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy," and has the primary focus on the coming of "Messiah the Prince," who Himself prophesied of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, suddenly abruptly changes to an antichrist figure in the verse 27?

What is the overspreading of abominations was the crucifying Christ afresh with the Jews rejection of Jesus Christ and continuing to sacrifice the type and shadow in rejection for the fulfillment? Is not that what we read in Hebrews, the weakness of the law, the worthlessness of the blood of animals, and how "he says, 'A new covenant, He has made the first old. so that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away?' "

Concerning Matthew 24:15, I submit the following for consideration - 

 Adam Clarke’s Commentary:

Verse 15.   The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel] This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Lu 21:20,21,) refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins.  The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews.  Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6,) the *Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there.  The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mr 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

*Havercamp’s note here: “This (says he) is a remarkable place; and Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic, ch. 16. p. 162, that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods.”

Josephus – Wars Book 5 -Chap.1  – para. 1 – THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city’s destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

para. 3 – . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, “O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! ‘For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.” But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition.

Cross references:

Luke 13:1 –  There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose you that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 Josephus – Wars Book 5 -Chap.1  – para. 5

They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity.

Josephus – Wars Book 6 -Chap.2  – para. 1 – HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER].

And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, – and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans,  and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions.”

[BlindSeeker]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:49 AM, Dennis1209 said:

...This now takes place starting at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation, concluding with the second advent of our Lord at the close of the Tribulation.

Right or wrong, I hope my explanation clarifies my thoughts. Quid pro quo: What are your thoughts, and where do we differ?

I personally do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation, and feel the "great tribulation" was under the siege of Titus wherein more Jews by by atrocities of their own countrymen than by the hands of the Romans, (see my post above).

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" also comes with the comment "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That "nor ever shall be" shows that time will continue for the world after this period, whereas that is not so in the eschatological view embracing a seven (great) tribulation and the end of the age with Christ's return.

 

[BlindSeeker]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They say that a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer to. And you've given some of us a right runabout. The question cannot be answered for there are no verses for a 7-year Great Tribulation. But you must be applauded for your obfuscation. You added the rapture into the equation.

As I stated in above post, I do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation period do to lack of scriptural support. It is that only last “one week” in verse 27, which has become commonly referred to as Daniel’s seventieth week, that has become popularly known and widely accepted as representing a seven year tribulation period.

Because we are instructed to verify the accuracy of any theology being promoted as biblical and taught in the name of Jesus Christ, it is wisdom to always look for at least a second, and possibly a third scriptural confirmation to support the text from which the theology is being taught. That is why I created the list below of the various seven-year periods mentioned in the Bible, excluding those pertaining to genealogy records. To keep the list reasonably short only a brief description is given with the scripture references alone provided. 

1.    There is the two separate seven-year periods for which Jacob labored for Rachael. The first in which he was tricked and given Leah instead, followed by the next seven years after which he indeed received Rachael, (Genesis 29:18-28).  
2.    The seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine with Joseph in Egypt, (Genesis 41). 
3.    Six years the Jews were permitted to sow their land and to gather in the fruits thereof. But the seventh was the sabbatical Shemitah year in which they were to let the land rest, that the poor people may eat, and what remained was for the beasts of the field, (Leviticus 25:2-7). 
4.    Seven times the seven Sabbath years to the Year of Jubilee, (Leviticus 25:8). 
5.    The time to build the city of Hebron, (Numbers 13:22). 
6.    At the end of six years when a Hebrew had been sold into servitude, they were to be released and set free at the beginning of the sabbatical Shemitah year, (Deuteronomy 15:1, 31:10). 
7.    Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian for seven years, (Judges 6:1). 
8.    The young bullock that Gideon used to throw down the altar of Baal was seven years old, (Judges 6:25). 
9.    Jephthah judged Israel seven years, (Judges 12:9). 
10.    The seven years of famine under David and Samuel, (2nd Samuel 24:13). 
11.    David reigned seven years in Hebron (I Kings 2:11). 
12.    The seven years of famine with Elisha. (2nd Kings 8:1-2). 
13.    The seven years of burning weapons after the war with Gog and Magog, which if there is a seven-year tribulation immediately before the return of Christ, then this war needs to occur before then. (Ezekiel 39:9.) 
14.    Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: 
she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years, (Luke 2:36). 

Of all these, only number 7 might remotely be construed as a seven year tribulation period. Still, there is no mention of a great war, or a slaughtering of the Jews, only that they fled and hid in caves and were greatly impoverished. This is hardly a type and shadow of what is taught as the Great Tribulation.  

Consequently, Daniel’s seventieth week period is the only “seven year” scriptural reference that I personally am aware of which is used as foundation for the theology of the “seven year tribulation.” According to the popular teaching of this theology, the division “in the midst of the week” is when the antichrist does away with the animal sacrifices that supposedly will be reinstated in a yet to be built third temple in Jerusalem. 

Now I am well aware how seven years divided by two equals three and a half years, and I acknowledged that there are also several three and a half year periods mentioned in scriptures; being referred to as “time, times, and half of time,” 42 months, or periods of 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days.  But, with all these segments of time recorded in scripture, it is not surprising there has always been a lot curiosity as to what these times mean.

Sadly, this has resulted in an untold number of exhaustive calculations having been made in an attempt to learn just when they might occur. It is astounding the extreme lengths some of these would-be theologians and prophets have labored to prove they know the dates of these times and when they will occur, especially since scripture clearly states the revelation for some of them are "sealed until the end." That means God must reveal it, and He will in His time. 

Job 32:8 – But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding. 

Proverbs 2:6 – For the LORD gives wisdom, and out of His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. 

1st Corinthians 2:11 – For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

To assume all the various three and a half year periods mentioned in scripture must be related to either the beginning or end of a seven-year tribulation period would be as imprudent as believing all the previously mentioned seven-year periods were all referencing the same period of time. To me a careful and honest examination of them should produce evidence enough for a thorough dismissal of such nonsense.

Therefore, it is reasonable to openly evaluate the meaning or probability of things, and time frames in scripture, I believe considerable caution must be taken when asserting things to an absolute conclusion. For even recent history shows it isn’t hard for someone to earn the title of “false” teacher or prophet.  

But again, that not to say we shouldn’t consider and compare such texts in-and to the light of history while prayerfully seeking understanding through the Holy Spirit’s illumination. We must first be diligent students of God’s word, and perhaps the greatest reward of study, persistent prayer, and seeking to prove all things, will be the avoidance of being carried away by the flood of false doctrines. For the Holy Spirit warned such would be abundantly promoted in the last day through arrogant men thinking themselves to be something they are not. 

I am persuaded through scripture that understanding, true clear and accurate understanding, is given by direct commandment of God who first tries the hearts of men. It is never the product of clever men being able to calculate their way through hidden codes in scripture and Harold Camping’s date setting errors should be a sufficient warning to any aspiring date setter.

But again, that doesn’t mean we should not, and/or cannot know the times in which we are living, after all Daniel did. Didn’t he? 

Matthew 11:25 – At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes. 
 

 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

...You added the rapture into the equation. The rapture is to move people from one point to another and has no bearing on the start of the Great Tribulation...

I don't recall mentioning the rapture...

 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But, I think after a week you can bless us with the truth. But we'll be watching you because Jeremiah and Ezekiel have Israel scattered to the "four winds" and that is where God's "elect" are gathered from by angels in Matthew 24:31. And according to Ezekiel 37 they are gathered back to their Land after being resurrected. The Church on the other hand is gathered to the clouds.

I, my friend, am a seeker of truth, and I find the best avenue is having an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying, for it is He who was sent to lead us into all truth. But again, "to whom will He teach knowledge? And whom will He make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk, those just drawn from the breasts. But precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept. Line upon line, line upon line. Here a little, there a little."

But the regathering of the Jews to their land is a fulfillment of prophecy, it is but another prophetic sign, while being caught up into the clouds to meet Him is a consummation of prophecies.

 

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Why seven days? Well, we don't know the answer but it shows that we cannot calculate.

The Jews (admittingly not all, they cannot agree on things much better than Christians can) believed that the seven days of creation represented seven millennial days, or a period of 7000 years. The first six millennial days where (as according to the 4th commandment) were for men to work out their salvation, and the seventh was the rest of the Lord, where they who did so, and suffered with Him, would indeed be rewarded by reigning with Him.

We see this in Hosea 5, where we read how they were going to reject Christ and He was going to be "like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue." And then He would return "again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

Then Hosea gives prophetic voice to the Jews at that time of repentance and turning to Jesus Christ in chapter 6, "Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight."

This is the passage Peter was directing us to when he wrote the following - 

2 Peter 2:1-10,  Beloved, I now write this second letter to you, in which I stir up your pure mind to remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the Lord and Savior by us, the apostles.
  First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.5 For this is hidden from them by their willing it, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of the water, and through water, being held together by the word of God, through which the world that then was, being flooded by water, perished. But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. For the Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But Israel is different. They have the prophets and one of their most revered, Daniel, predicted a seven year period, NOT OF TRIBULATION, but of rule by a Gentile king. It is only when this Gentile king claims deity and a place in the Holy of Holies that God's wrath. The time when this happens is not known because 2nd Thessalonians 2 says he must be "revealed" first. Then it says that something "hinders" which must be removed. Then only can he involve himself POLITICALLY by residency in Jerusalem and be supported by ten kings. The literal of Daniel 9:26-27 is that he "strengthens THE Covenant". The article implies that the Covenant is in place but weak. And surely, there is only one Covenant in history that has the daily oblation - that of Sinai.

There is much to address above, but time prohibits for now. 

But I do appreciate you posting and the structuring of your thoughts, many I once shared, and I do appreciate the noting of "strengthens THE Covenant" over the word spinning of calling it a peace treaty. But IMHO it is speaking of Jesus Christ confirming the covenant of God with His people via His own resurrection which fulfilled the prophetic purpose of the Law, cause it to die having be so fulfilled. Yet, as I posted above, the Jews continuing in their sacrifices rejecting Christ, though one was lawful, was now an "overspreading of abominations, whereby He (God) made it (the Temple) desolate, even unto the consummation (the end)."

Therefore, I do not believe the  temple will ever be rebuilt...

[RdJ]

7 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Just for the record, I believe “the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” is Titus Caesar, Vespasian’s son who completed the siege on Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 a.d.

It doesn't say the prince destroys it.

 

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The people, the Romans, destroy it, and the prince who is to come is Roman.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
Matthew 24:14‭-‬15 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/mat.24.14-15.NKJV

Abomination of desolation will be in the end.

 

 

 

 

[Dennis1209]

9 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I personally do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation, and feel the "great tribulation" was under the siege of Titus wherein more Jews by by atrocities of their own countrymen than by the hands of the Romans, (see my post above).

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" also comes with the comment "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That "nor ever shall be" shows that time will continue for the world after this period, whereas that is not so in the eschatological view embracing a seven (great) tribulation and the end of the age with Christ's return.

 

We all have our differing eschatological, exegetical, and hermeneutical views. I view these 50₵ words scholars invented as non-core or Salvific issues. Most dedicated godly men throughout history, from the so-called early church fathers and anti-Nicene to the present, have many differing views.

There is much to learn by reading and studying the various views and interpretations. I remain rock solid, never changing my view or beliefs of the core tenets of my faith. You mentioned I once thought or believed, been there, done that several times with study. The same Holy Spirit is with us all, leading and guiding.

I could cite dozens of examples of someone drastically changing their mind, but I will use only one for brevity. In this generation, I feel that the best Christian apologist and debater about creation is Dr. Kent Hovind (a.k.a. Dr. Dino). Long story short, for most of his life, he was a pretribulationist, then suddenly, he switched and became an adamant advocate of the Sixth Seal harpazo.

I have found the following helpful in my studies:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

Peter then wrote about revelation. The statement, No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation, has been interpreted several ways: (1) Scripture should be interpreted only in context, that is, a prophecy cannot stand alone without other prophecies to aid in its understanding. (2) Scripture should not be interpreted according to one’s own individual liking. (3) Scripture cannot be correctly interpreted without the Holy Spirit. (4) The prophecies did not originate with the prophets themselves. The word epilyseōs (“interpretation,” lit., “unloosing”) and the word ginetai (“came about”) favor the fourth view. The Scriptures did not stem merely from the prophets themselves; their writings came from God. Verse 20, then, speaks not of interpretation, but of revelation, the source of the Scriptures.^[1]

Fourteen words, yet so many opinions on the meaning.

---

^[1] Gangel, Kenneth O. “2 Peter.” The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, edited by J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, vol. 2, Victor Books, 1985, p. 869.

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Can you explain how this prophetic message of which the angel's says, the "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy," and has the primary focus on the coming of "Messiah the Prince," who Himself prophesied of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, suddenly abruptly changes to an antichrist figure in the verse 27?

My my, everything you put forth is always out of sorts with the facts. Stop taking commentary from men and ASK God, He will give you the answers Himself. There are proper commentaries, the problem with using them is you can find one that matches your own confirmations, so its useless then right? Especially if you do n0t say, well 50 said differently, but this agreed with me!! Now I will show you what this means from a deep 40 year study, we over 39 because I put forth this blog about 8 years or so ago.

Daniel's  70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not yet come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel must repent before the 70 weeks judgment decree can come to an end)

2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins must end by the time the 70th week decree has ended, so says the prophecy)

3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( Israel will be blinded in part, until the "Time of the Gentiles" [servitude unto God] has come to pass, via the rapture. Therefore Israel can not repent as a nation until the 70th week has come, but must repent as a nation before the 70th week can end. A 7 year timeframe )

4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (This prophecy must end with Jesus' Second Coming as Lord of lords and King of Kings ruling on this earth )

5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All Prophecy must be completed or sealed up by the time the 70th week decree ends, so that couldn't have been 2000 years ago because much prophecy has yet to be fulfilled )

6. Anoint the most Holy ( Jesus must be anointed King of kings and Lord of Lords before the 70th week can end )  

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) and Paul in Romans 11 prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, "willful sins" can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom on earth, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no more willful sins. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble”, then “willful sins will end”.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had willful sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy can be fulfilled in full. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah's help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

-------------------------------------

So, there is no chance Jesus was this prince to come, its nit even a Capital P, as in Dan. 8: 27 where Jesus is described as a Prince. So, why would Daniel not capitalize the word? Because its not Jesus, its the Little Horn/A.C. who is to come 2000 some odd years after the people of Rome destroy the city Jerusalem.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

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Remember there were no chapters and verses, the translators added them in, the prophesy is divided wrongly IMHO, if we were to divide the last "THREE VERSES" it should be divided into "TWO VERSES" like this.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(49 yrs), and threescore and two weeks(434 yrs): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off(Killed), but not for himself:

 

and the people(Romans) of the prince (A.C.) that shall come shall(during the 70th week or at the end) destroy the city and the sanctuary;(Jerusalem in 70 AD) and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Roman army swamps Jerusalem) , and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(Jerusalem will be desolate unto 1948 when God raised the Dead Bones up again). 27 And he (A.C.) shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many for one week(Israel and every nation on the Mediterranean Coastline): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease**(The the A.C. from AFAR causes the Worshiping of Jesus to stop)**, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation(The Anti-Christ defiles the temple as per his orders from afar, until he is killed or CONSUMED), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

** The Anti-Christ is not in Jerusalem at the 1290, that happens 30 days before the 1260, it is 1290 days away from the 2nd coming while the A.C. only shows up 1260 days before the 2nd coming. Thus this False Prophet High Priest like unto Jason unto Antiochus Epiphanes, (the two Archetypes) will forbid Jesus worship in the temple of God by the 5 million or so (1/3 see Zech. 13:8-9) Jews who repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 ONE VERSE LATER !! By the way, the Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing, they show up 1335 days before the 2nd coming, and this 45 days before the 1290 and 75 days before the 1260. Then, this False Prophet Jewish High Priest will place an IMAGE of the E.U. President up in the temple. Bu the way, the Dan. 9:27 AGREEMENT is simply this, Israel joins the E.U. and that sets EVERYTHING in motion, Gd raptures the Church and His 70th week of penance, designed to get Israel to repent begins**

[BlindSeeker]

16 hours ago, RdJ said:

It doesn't say the prince destroys it.

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The people, the Romans, destroy it, and the prince who is to come is Roman.

Really?
That's your rebuttal, and you believe it to be accurate? 

So, I guess President Truman wasn't responsible for the destruction of Hiroshima since he wasn't the one who released Little Boy, or for Fat Man on Nagasaki....

 

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Since I believe "the end" that "shall come," which was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (you free to disagree), I will simply submit to you Adam Clarke’s Commentary on this verse:

Verse 14.   And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world]  But, notwithstanding these persecutions, there should be a universal publication of the glad tidings of the kingdom, for a testimony to all nations.  God would have the iniquity of the Jews published every where, before the heavy stroke of his judgments should fall upon them; that all mankind, as it were, might be brought as witnesses against their cruelty and obstinacy in crucifying and rejecting the Lord Jesus.

 In all the world -   Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that pasan thn oikoumenhn, Lu 2:1 – “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed,” means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see on Lu 2:1. Tacitus informs us, Annal. l. xv., that, as early as the reign of Nero, the Christians were grown so numerous at Rome as to excite the jealousy of the government; and in other parts they were in proportion.  However, we are under no necessity to restrain the phrase to the Roman empire, as, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel was not only preached in the lesser Asia, and Greece, and Italy, the greatest theatres of action then in the world; but was likewise propagated as far north as SCYTHIA; as far south as ETHIOPIA; as far east as PARTHIA and INDIA; and as far west as SPAIN and BRITAIN.

St. Paul himself speaks, Col 1:6,23, of the Gospel’s being come into ALL THE WORLD, and preached TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven.  And in his Epistle to the Romans, Ro 10:18, he very elegantly applies to the lights of the Church, what the psalmist said of the lights of heaven.  Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END of the WORLD.  What but the wisdom of God could foretell this? and what but the power of God could accomplish it?

 Then shall the end come.]  When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

Cross references: “preached in all the world”

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Col. 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

 

[BlindSeeker]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There is much to learn by reading and studying the various views and interpretations. I remain rock solid, never changing my view or beliefs of the core tenets of my faith. You mentioned I once thought or believed, been there, done that several times with study. The same Holy Spirit is with us all, leading and guiding.

I could cite dozens of examples of someone drastically changing their mind...

Yes, I would like to think "The same Holy Spirit is with us all, leading and guiding," but doubtless with many believers He is grieved by their overconfidence whereby they have become incapable of hearing or following Him into "all truth."

People often have their theological strongholds, which tend to be more crippling then sin in the life of a believer. Therefore, having been so ensnared, for years I have endeavored to practice being my biggest challenger of my persuasions. I learned long ago almost anything can be preached from the bible. It's not what I can support with a few scriptures, but rather that which stands with the harmony of the whole of scripture.

That said, my life as been one of constantly evaluating, tweaking, or completely changing my position on a matter. However, I've learned that the crucial thing is to not grieve the Spirit and to be true to my convictions in the Lord while endeavoring to perfect holiness unto the Lord.

Regarding Dr. Kent Hovind's positional change, I would be in harmony with him, as well as the comments regarding "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

[BlindSeeker]

At Jesus' baptism the testimony that He was anointed "the Most Holy" was confirmed via the sign foretold to John the Baptist, the greatest of all prophets (save Jesus Himself), when John beheld the Holy Spirit like a dove light upon Jesus.

Jesus confirmed this Himself "When He had opened the book, [and] found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel," and said to those hearing Him "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

 

[RdJ]

5 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Really?
That's your rebuttal, and you believe it to be accurate? 

So, I guess President Truman wasn't responsible for the destruction of Hiroshima since he wasn't the one who released Little Boy, or for Fat Man on Nagasaki....

 

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Since I believe "the end" that "shall come," which was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (you free to disagree), I will simply submit to you Adam Clarke’s Commentary on this verse:

Verse 14.   And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world]  But, notwithstanding these persecutions, there should be a universal publication of the glad tidings of the kingdom, for a testimony to all nations.  God would have the iniquity of the Jews published every where, before the heavy stroke of his judgments should fall upon them; that all mankind, as it were, might be brought as witnesses against their cruelty and obstinacy in crucifying and rejecting the Lord Jesus.

 In all the world -   Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that pasan thn oikoumenhn, Lu 2:1 – “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed,” means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see on Lu 2:1. Tacitus informs us, Annal. l. xv., that, as early as the reign of Nero, the Christians were grown so numerous at Rome as to excite the jealousy of the government; and in other parts they were in proportion.  However, we are under no necessity to restrain the phrase to the Roman empire, as, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel was not only preached in the lesser Asia, and Greece, and Italy, the greatest theatres of action then in the world; but was likewise propagated as far north as SCYTHIA; as far south as ETHIOPIA; as far east as PARTHIA and INDIA; and as far west as SPAIN and BRITAIN.

St. Paul himself speaks, Col 1:6,23, of the Gospel’s being come into ALL THE WORLD, and preached TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven.  And in his Epistle to the Romans, Ro 10:18, he very elegantly applies to the lights of the Church, what the psalmist said of the lights of heaven.  Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END of the WORLD.  What but the wisdom of God could foretell this? and what but the power of God could accomplish it?

 Then shall the end come.]  When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

Cross references: “preached in all the world”

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Col. 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

 

Yes you can read it 2 ways. I never even thought of reading it like you do.

But that was not the end. If you believe that was the end then this is it. This is the new heaven and earth. A full preterist said that to a widow. She said: This is not heaven. My husband is dead.

 

The end is after Israel has gone to exile and came back to the land and is saved.

Ezekiel 37

Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
Ezekiel 37:12‭-‬14‭, ‬21‭-‬28 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.37.12-28.NKJV