What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation”

[tatwo]

The word “tribulation” is not as well defined as it should be…however it is not difficult to understand. Let’s just take a look at the basic elementary definition of “tribulation” as used in the New Covenant as translated from the Greek. Sources here are “Strong’s…Word Studies…NAS Exhaustive Concordance…Thayer’s Greek Lexicon…The Complete WordStudy Dictionary…Englishman’s Concordance.

The root word from which the actual word comes from is G2346 thlíbō meaning “to constrict, distress and oppressive affliction, confined, suffer, trouble, restricted.”

The word translated to “tribulation” from the Greek in the New Testament is G2347 thlípsis meaning “pressure, a narrow place, hemmed in, internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined or restricted without options, pressure from evil, distress, calamity…affecting body, mind or both, testing ones endurance or faith.”

The picture I see materializing here with the translation from Greek to English appears to be very simplistic really. It has the connotation or nuance of…an event, scenario, happening, or reality that is noticeably and at times intensely distressing and troubling in a way that is pressuring and restricting one into a confinement and sometimes against their will.

Thus creating an internal pressure on both one’s body and mind that can be experienced as restrictive and evil…leaving one in a calamitous distress known as judgment…or alternatively as we shall see…it can lead one to a state of repentance and even perseverance, growth and joy in the Holy Spirit…even in the face of death. 

Now…the word is used around 20 times in the bible depending on translation. It is mostly a New Testament term…used primarily by the Lord Yahshua, Paul and John.

“Tribulation” according to the Lord…“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.” and “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will” Additionally He references it as “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

He says it is the state which the church in Smyrna had experienced…”tribulation and your poverty and the blasphemy”…and it would intensify and test them giving them the opportunity through “perseverance” to receive the “crown of life.”

To the church in Thyatira He said “Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds” speaking of those who were involved in an spiritually adulterous affair with the harlot. So in that example like the Smyrna example…we see the Lord using/allowing “tribulation and great tribulation” to come upon the church to give opportunity for repentance and a return to righteousness. 

According to Paul “tribulation” is experienced by every soul of men who do evil…and he says that we are to be “persevering in tribulation” …”knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance” while not…being able to separate us from the love of Christ…and something the Body of Christ must learn to live with.

John states that he is “a fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus”…and then as he is in heaven…he sees those who are clothed in white robes those coming out of the “great tribulation” and are washed white by the blood of the Lamb.

Ok so there is a condensed look at the use of the word “tribulation and great tribulation” in the New Testament…by whom…and for what.

We can see that the Lord has and will put “His own” through “tribulation and great tribulation” to bring repentance, cleansing, persecution, testimony, perseverance, and joy in the Holy Spirit. In this light we can see that “tribulation and great tribulation” are realities that the Lord Himself allows for His purposes.

Paul says “tribulation” is what the evil soul will face…which he explains as the judgment rendered to each person according to their deeds.

However Paul also resonates with the Lord Yahshua in that “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the sons of God brings perseverance…a strengthening…a challenge…and that in the midst of it…even if it were to produce everything and anything including death…that “tribulation and great tribulation” in and of itself cannot separate us from the love of Christ.

Paul instructs the “sons of God” to preserver in the face of all “tribulation” being hopeful and prayerful…just to mention a couple of the spiritual disciplines associated with perseverance of the saints.

Finally…Brother Paul instructs the “sons of God” the “Body of Christ - believers” to imitate him as he imitates the Lord in the receiving and bringing of the “Word” in “much tribulation” with the joy of the Holy Spirit. In his example…this is so that the Thessalonians might be an example to believers in Macedonia and Achaia…and by extension to all believers since…even unto today.

So what did we “see” here regarding “tribulation and great tribulation” as defined in the translation to Greek and to the usage in every mention in the New Testament?

That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the souls of the evil and the world brings them into the judgment of Christ…and in some cases offers them a shot at repentance.

That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the believers, sons of God or Body of Christ affords them an opportunity to grow through perseverance into the testimony of Christ in the joy of the Holy Spirit.

It would appear that regardless of where you are positioned spiritually…”in the world” or “in Christ”…both “tribulation and great tribulation” have their divinely intentioned and effectual works all in accordance to the will of God.

Another thing about “tribulation and great tribulation” that I see…perhaps circumstantially…is that the “arc of its effect” as it has proceeded over the ages has been greatly enlarged…so as to now…encompass the entirety of creation in some way.

As we move forward into the end of the age…which we are…the “tribulation and great tribulation” will indeed increase in size…“area of impact”…and scope…“intensity of impact.” Thus judging the world and purifying the Body of Christ as we see here.

Next we will look at “tribulation and great tribulation” in the world today…most notably in the U.S. where I live. Perhaps uncovering the movement towards and growth of.. “tribulation and great tribulation” in the last few…say 3-5 years…because it is rather shocking really.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation” PT. 2

In the last post I showed what and how the terms…“tribulation and great tribulation”…are defined in the Greek and used by Yahshua, Paul and John from the New Testament.

The picture I see materializing here with the translation from Greek to English appears to be very simplistic really. It has the connotation or nuance of…an event, scenario, happening, or reality that is noticeably and at times intensely distressing and troubling in a way that is pressuring and restricting one into a confinement and sometimes against their will.

Thus creating an internal pressure on both one’s body and mind that can be experienced as restrictive and evil…leaving one in a calamitous distress known as judgment…or alternatively as we shall see…it can lead one to a state of repentance and even perseverance, growth and joy in the Holy Spirit…even in the face of death.

That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the souls of the “evil, religious and the world” brings them into the judgment of Christ…and in some cases in regards to the religious…offers them a shot at repentance.

That “tribulation and great tribulation” upon the “believers, sons of God or Body of Christ” affords them an opportunity to grow spiritually through perseverance into the testimony of Christ in the joy of the Holy Spirit.

So “tribulation and great tribulation” have been and are yet unavoidable for humanity. It would appear that regardless of where you are positioned spiritually…”in the world” or “in Christ” both “tribulation and great tribulation” have their divinely intentioned and effectual works all in accordance to the will of God. Of course…He knows the end of the matter before it begins.

Let’s consider the source of all “tribulation and great tribulation”…well…it is allowed in the age of creation by the authority of the throne of God ultimately…however it is produced by the dragon via deception that produces sin and death…which is separation from eternal life in God.

Deception must be understood in its fullest impact…this means that it’s most virulent effect is…that those who are deceived “cannot or do not realize or see that deception has gripped them”…in other words those living in deception “do not know and are not aware that they are deceived”…and for “believers” this means that they do not know…(apostasy)…that what they are “believing for truth” is that which is “a lie.” They serve “Satan the dragon as his Harlot” believing they are serving the “Lord Yahshua as His Bride.”

How then does “tribulation and great tribulation” fit into this state of “deception”…you may be thinking?

Well for the “deceived” or those who believe “a lie as truth”…to which Yahshua declared a point of warning for…”do not be deceived” He said. However…for the deceived the “tribulation and great tribulation” is really “hidden from them” through this complex network of deception and lies.  I would like you to think along the lines of a quote from long ago…it was probably a Brother in Christ who spoke or wrote it…“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”

For imaginations sake…let’s consider what that means…simply stated I see it like this. This fallen angelic creature…a dragon…built a “world – kosmos” of ever increasing entanglement to irresistibly enslave the souls of man on the earth…in which he torments and destroys those same men and creation…while leading them to believe that it is the work of the God and Father of creation or someone else who is doing this…utterly hiding himself from “view” via deception…in that…he is undetectable to the human soul.

I understand that these are difficult realities…but this is a time for Truth to shine forth…this is a time when the Holy Spirit of the Living God is continually bringing to light that which was hidden in the darkness of ages past. This must be known…He is bringing these “revelations” forth by those whom He has sent out…upon the earth…today.

This dragon’s realm of darkness has cloaked his intentions and works behind the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life” of the carnal human soul…since the Garden of Eden…for that is all that is in the world…which is passing away.

Ok so let’s dig into some of this “tribulation and great tribulation”…perhaps we can change it to  “tribulation unto great tribulation” as it is now and as it is on its way to its crescendo performance at the end of the age. As I stated prior…the arc of the deceptive influence is continually growing until it is “great” and has enslaved all of those who “dwell on earth.”

Here is a list of several ways that the United States is “systemically” being destroyed right now…today…it is not likely to be comprehensive however there is some detail…and if one were to drill down into any of these things they would fine so much detail. Additionally…the work of this systemic beast is “behind the scenes” and largely unseen by most Americans, the religious and worldly alike…and it has been occurring for a few centuries while become increasingly more sophisticated in the more recent times.

Normally people only see a couple of these realities at a time…when they are seen as a listing…another picture should emerge.

1.      Moral and societal decay

2.      The global depopulation agenda

3.      Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) and the new racism

4.      Destruction of the nuclear family and parental rights

5.      The educational indoctrination of children

6.      The trans contagion and sterilization of children

7.      Record low fertility and plummeting birth rates

8.      Toxic food supply

9.      Inflation and debt

10.  The financing of endless foreign wars

11.  The destruction of private property rights

12.  Open borders and illegal immigration

13.  Rampant crime and unsafe cities

14.  Mass addiction and fentanyl

15.  Over prescription of pharmaceuticals

16.  The asymmetrical weaponization of justice

17.  Unaccountable federal bureaucracies

18.  Election insecurity and interference

19.  Vaccine and pandemic disinformation

20.  The sprawling surveillance state

21.  The centralization and consolidation of government power

22.  The destruction of trust in institutions

23.  The censorship industrial complex

24.  State-media propaganda

25.  The smearing of those who challenge it

You may be able to add to this list something’s that you see…when one stops to consider the picture that this list paints…one must understand that these are the works of the dragon. The dragon’s “M.O.” is to “kill steel and destroy” and that is threaded all throughout this list.

We must understand that most of these things are well established and into their processes…long before they manifest openly into the world. When they do emerge it is with a fair amount of stealth and often not overtly detectable. As one who has followed these things and more for the last 20 years…I must say the profound emergence of some of these things in the 3-5 years is very alarming.

For example…as a farmer I have been watching the livestock cattle and beef industry for over 40 years. Recently the USDA released that the U.S. cattle herd is smaller today than it was 70 years ago when they started tracking the herd size…and the population of the U.S. in that day was around 125 million…today it is around 330 million. Imagine the effect or impact that is having and going to have as we move forward in 2024 and into 2025.

How about energy…when Russian energy was not readily available for obvious reasons…the U.S. government began to sell its reserves to largely European nations causing the U.S. reserves to dwindle as reported.

Now that the government is working to resupply the energy and fuel reserves it is doing so at a cost greater than what they sold the reserves for…so it is driving fuel and energy costs up.

All of this to say…“tribulation unto great tribulation” has been here…is here…and going to increase dramatically as we move ahead into the future. From tribulation to greater and greater tribulation to the great tribulation…like a woman in the throes of birth pains and pangs…preparing to give birth is how the Lord said it.

For those who have not, do not or cannot see the things I have listed here…as “tribulation unto great tribulation” the likely hood that you are being prepared by God for increasing “tribulation unto great tribulation” is almost nil.

We will see if any of this goes anywhere from here…I do have more to post.

Tatwo...:)

[Marathoner]

I read your OP and as with most things you share on the forum, I'm in agreement. However, the point of view which produces your narrative in the second post misses the mark in many ways. This isn't a criticism of you my friend but rather, it's something I find common among many. How does your view of the United States miss the mark?

First and foremost, there's an assumption of prior moral superiority which is central to that narrative. "It was better in the old days" is the common refrain, but this notion doesn't withstand analysis for long. First, I will begin by sharing relevant scripture which refutes the fantasy that man is somehow worse now than he was in days of old:

“There is no righteous person, not even one;
There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The venom of asps is under their lips”;
“Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And they have not known the way of peace.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Romans 3:11-18 NASB)

I find it interesting how some who rant about how terrible things are today fall silent when confronted with this passage of New Testament scripture written over 2,000 years ago. The truth is simple, isn't it? There has never been a righteous person... no, not one. Destruction and misery are the path of man and have been for longer than the U.S. has existed. 

It would be good to address a selection of points from your "list" as that will help illustrate the point I'm making. 
 

19 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Moral and societal decay

Ah yes, the same moral and societal decay decried during the late 19th century by the Teetotalers, the Millerites, the Fundamentalists, and whomever else opposed liquor, close dancing, gambling, and the like. This is nothing new. 
 

22 minutes ago, tatwo said:

The global depopulation agenda

Conspiracy theory. Insisting that something is true doesn't make it true. 
 

22 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) and the new racism

Right, because the "new racism" is somehow worse than the old racism? Certainly not. I have shared the following elsewhere on the forum as an excellent example of the Jim Crow system of apartheid at work in the Southern U.S. during the old days. My grandmother, who was a colored woman living in the South, had no rights under the law. My three-month old father was kidnapped from her hovel (she was dirt poor) and there wasn't a single thing she could do about it. The police, courts, and lawyers couldn't possibly care less. The point is simple, my friend: it was much worse during the old days than it is right now. 
 

26 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Destruction of the nuclear family and parental rights

Refer to the Depression era example shared above. My paternal grandmother had no parental rights because she was colored. Children on reservations were forcibly taken from their nuclear families by authorities. The nuclear family and parental rights have been persistent delusions in the United States.
 

30 minutes ago, tatwo said:

The educational indoctrination of children

As if this wasn't going on for the entirety of the 20th century in the U.S.? 
 

31 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Open borders and illegal immigration

Clearly, an education in U.S. history would greatly benefit your narrative, my friend. Illegal immigrants have been surreptitiously employed by scurrilous American employers for over 120 years. Illegal immigrants were exploited on farms and, after child labor laws (I'm surprised that didn't make your list) were enacted on the federal level, in factories.

As for borders? Traditionally, the United States has never erected fortified borders in the manner that totalitarian states (the former USSR, East Germany, North Korea, et. al.) have. Those who cross were not fired on. In this sense, the United States border has indeed been open since the beginning. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing. 

37 minutes ago, tatwo said:

The asymmetrical weaponization of justice

Since when has man been just, my friend? The "weaponization of justice" has been a feature of American society since the beginning. 

I believe that's sufficient. Your OP was outstanding and worthy of reading, but the second post is hollow politicized nonsense. Do you refute the teaching of the Lord and His apostles regarding the estate of man, @tatwo? Man has been atrocious and terrible all along and contrary to the fantasy you cling to, the U.S. has always been morally bankrupt and reprehensible to the extreme. Remove the tinted glasses and you'll witness the truth. 

[Keras]

It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.

James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

  On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9  It is those people, the holy ones of God,  who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.

[WilliamL]

On 5/11/2024 at 12:31 PM, Marathoner said:

Man has been atrocious and terrible all along and contrary to the fantasy you cling to, the U.S. has always been morally bankrupt and reprehensible to the extreme.

A bit extreme here yourself. America has always been divided between God-lovers and God-haters. Sometimes one side more or less prevails, sometimes the other. There have been three great Christian religious awakenings since the 1700s, and two since the establishment of the United States; with many lesser ones.

The Church in America and elsewhere cannot have an "apostasia/falling away" from the faith unless it has had substantial faith to begin with. Which is what Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about: the strength of the American churches of his day.

I would hardly call the founders of this country "morally bankrupt." Flawed, yes, but men such as George Washington and most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were honorable and moral men. Few such men remain in the political realm today.

[Marathoner]

4 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

A bit extreme here yourself. America has always been divided between God-lovers and God-haters. Sometimes one side more or less prevails, sometimes the other. There have been three great Christian religious awakenings since the 1700s, and two since the establishment of the United States; with many lesser ones.

The Church in America and elsewhere cannot have an "apostasia/falling away" from the faith unless it has had substantial faith to begin with. Which is what Alexis de Tocqueville wrote about: the strength of the American churches of his day.

I would hardly call the founders of this country "morally bankrupt." Flawed, yes, but men such as George Washington and most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were honorable and moral men. Few such men remain in the political realm today.

Feel free to justify and whitewash history to your heart's content. Men are more than just "flawed," William. Do you accept the testimony of scripture? Scripture is explicitly clear about it. 

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Feel free to justify and whitewash history to your heart's content. Men are more than just "flawed," William. Do you accept the testimony of scripture? Scripture is explicitly clear about it. 

Like these scriptures?

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

Matthew 12:35 “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Proverbs 12:2 A good man obtains favor from the LORD,
But a man of wicked intentions He will condemn.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
And He delights in his way.

Yes, scripture is explicitly clear that there are many good men in God's eyes.

[Charlie744]

Hope you folks do not mind but I would like to throw out some thoughts that have come to mind during my feeble attempt to try and frame this topic…. 
 

1) there is not one who is worthy in God’s eyes, 

2) the church is not a physical building, not even a group of people- large or small. It is not male or female, nor Jew or Greek. It is one who does the work of the Lord: he who obeys His Word and believes in the Testimony of Jesus. 

3) the tribulation applies to each individual who believes in Jesus and obeys His Word that live during each and every one of the 7 church periods mentioned in Revelation. Each period may have a specific “trial and tribulation” identified but any individual during any time can experience any of those “tribulations.” But the point is that each individual who is a believer in Jesus (as opposed to a church member), will experience tribulation throughout the coming 2000 years within the 7 periods. 

4) there is absolutely nothing new under the sun. Man or church have been in sin since Adam. It does not matter where they live, what century, the US or in the past Roman period… the prophecies in Revelation or Daniel are not speaking to the United Nations or the EU or the US, etc.  It is ALL about those who accept or reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior … It has nothing to do with the name on the outside of our local church. 

5) If this begins to narrow down the possible options for this topic, then, as I believe, each person must establish a personal relationship with God, he will have to experience his own “trials and tribulations,” regardless of the time of his life or the church he belongs to, he will be judged as an individual by God - again, on a purely personal level. 

6) the cross brought everything from the corporate to the individual, the external to the internal way to salvation, however, the trials and tribulations will be found throughout the 7 periods of time - available to any and all, but NOT specific to a particular group like the US, EU, etc. 

7) but there is a time mentioned that is identified as the Great Tribulation. If the 7 churches each experience a form of tribulation, then this GT would / might speak to the true end of things when God has decreed that time is coming to and end and this particular period will be quite different. It will be extreme, and it will occur just before His return. Essentially, we are going to experience things so we will have to “pick a lane.” Enough.. follow and accept Jesus as our Lird and Savior or … not. And the “or not” is not just choosing a non Christian religion like Islam or Buddhism, etc., but for those billions that call themselves Christians but follow a different Gospel. And a perfect example of this is the RCC with over 1.4 BILLION followers who believe they are worshipping the “God of our father, “ Jesus and His Word. But they and most other Christian denominations may find they are not following the teachings that were heard from His Apostles after the cross (but that is another topic).

8) Consequently, there will be a time when God will declare the “time of the Gentiles” has been fulfilled. He will divinely remove the blindness from the eyes of His people He will no longer remain “desolate” to His people. They, wherever they are on the earth, will recognize the “One they have pierced,” and in sackcloth and ashes, go out into the world preaching the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus JUST AS PAUL, JOHN and MATTHEW after the cross. 

9) this will last for 3.5 years and complete the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle (which can only be completed by His people). Literally, billions will now hear the TRUE Word of God which will NOT sound like today’s preachings and practices. This will turn the Christian world upside down. This will turn the non-Christian world upside down when they with the Jews preaching Jesus as their Messiah. This will be a very violent, divisive and troubling time - the world had yet to experience. Bother against brother, father against son, neighbor against neighbor, etc. This is the true and final battle to take place throughout the world. It will not have its “identity” limited to any of our secular terms- US, EU, etc. This period is the Great Tribulation to take place for each of us to make our decision to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior… or not. 

That is how I am attempting to frame this topic … 

Edited May 12 by Michael37
Whitespace edited

[tatwo]

@Marathoner

Greetings Marathoner,

Are you alright over there Bro? I have sensed…since I read your response…that I have offended you…this caused me to step back a bit in contemplation and discernment…of all that I posted and then your subsequent commentary.

First…I am sorry Marathoner for any offence or insensitivity I may have produced here to you…forgive me. Perhaps I was not sensitive enough prior to my post…no offense was intended.

On a personal level it “seems” as though something “deeper” in you was “piqued” here and caused you to respond rather vehemently...which I am both ok with at one level…and at the same time saddened at another level. I am empathetic towards your pain friend.

In my experience…when I come across a response similar to yours…after some triage…I have found that this type of reaction may be justified…while other times it is based in a latent emotional “wound or injury” that become buried in the emotion of the soul…not knowing you any better than I do…I will leave this right here.

In an attempt to be responsible to my own writings and postings…and accountable to the readers...I am to some degree going to go through your response to me…Tatwo…in a bit more detail…it will be forth coming.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 5/11/2024 at 1:31 PM, Marathoner said:

However, the point of view which produces your narrative in the second post misses the mark in many ways.

For the record…my narrative…initially…was the most elementary Scriptural use and definition of the terminology…“tribulation and great tribulation.”

Secondarily I introduced the connection of the “dragon’s deception” in its…basic definition…and the role it plays in a tribulation of any sort…and this in an “end of the age” mindset.

My tertiary focus…was upon painting a picture…via the listing of some of the spiritual/physical factors…that I have been observing and studying for many years…and wanted to share.

All of this was my personal attempt to try in some fashion…to paint a picture of some very destructive elements that have enlarged themselves since the fall and up into in our day…and moving forward...which I am seeing…and would like to share.

That is my narrative as I saw it and yet see it Marathoner...

Tatwo...:)