The Fall of Babylon = America

[other one]

We need to concentrate on doing God's Work than worrying about who, what, when, where, etc of Babylon and how it's all going to end.

We really can do both......

[Guest Shaggy Flasko]

whoops, double post. Sorry about that.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Shaggy Flasko

[Guest Shaggy Flasko]

How can it be any other than Jerusalem?

Luke 13

33"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.

34"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Matthew 23

34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Revelation 17

6And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

Revelation 18

20"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

24"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

Or, Christ's death?

1 Thessalonians 2

14For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

15who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,

16hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

Matthew 27

24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves."

25And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!"

Revelation 11

8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not remotely reasonable to say that Babylon is any other than Jerusalem, the one and only, of Christ's generation.

God bless.

-Bill

[BlindSeeker]

Re 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

This "Great City" is actually the 8th beast. It has made many rich throughout the world because of it indulgences. It also has boasted that it would never see war on its own soil . . .

When she is destroyed . . . the ships stay afar off for fear of her torment as they see the smoke of her burning casting dust upon their heads.

Where do they get this dust?

Does it come from the sky and the smoke?

What is this torment?

Could it be fallout and radiation?

Re 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain

What is the seat of this beast? Could it be the capital? The sky darken by "the smoke of her burning?"

"Gnawing their tongue for pain?"

Re 16:19 And the great city

<polis>

was divided into three parts, and the cities

<polis>

of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

It is interesting that the translators translated the Greek word <polis> singular in one spot . . . and plural in another???

It is also odd to that we are speaking of a singular (8th) beast (empire/nation) and referring to it as a

Edited November 15, 2005 by BlindSeeker

[BlindSeeker]

Daniel 4 tells you who/what babylon the great is. It's a repeating process the fall of sin. Nebuchadnezzar's Kingdom was a form of babylon the great. Nebuchadnezzar created his kingdom and thought indeed it was babylon the great and in his ignornace the kingdom feel because the lord came in and made it so. And people scattered, and his kingdom was temporarly distroyed. You could say as the angel does in revelations Fallen Fallen, Babylon the great has fallen. Nebuchadnezzar to was great and had fallen.

The Dream Is Fulfilled

28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"

31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes."

Then why would the beloved apostle prophesy about it 500 years later? . . . and how do all the other aspects of his prophesy fit into one man eating grass for seven years?

[Guest Shaggy Flasko]

perhaps because the great city is thrown into the sea like a great millstone...and it wont be heard from ever again....

Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Re 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

I think that this is an accurate description of national Israel's fate. Read Deuteronomy 28:15ff. Israel's blessing was conditional. Should we ignore Christ's words in Matthew 23, "your house is left unto you desolate"?

Jerusalem, lasts another 1000 years, and during this time , the MK, the Groom/Husband/Lord with His bride/wife/queen/BODY---inhabit "daughter of Zion, and they both have the same name....

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

and here name...

Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

the "wife" cleans house when they arrive, so the "husband" can dwell in a CLEAN SANCTUARY.

the one in Ezekeil 40-48.

If we only look to the Old Testament, it's hard to get a perspective of the fulfillment of these prophecies. What do Christ's apostles tell us? Who is Israel?

Romans 9

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Compare this interesting verse with Galatians.

Galatians 3

7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON (T)A TREE"--

14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Read the rest of Romans 9 to get a perspective on this. Especially noteworthy is Paul's reference to Hosea.

Romans 9

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

25As He says also in Hosea,

"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'

AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'

THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

Hosea speaks of the restoration of Israel (the above quote is from Hosea 2:23 and 1:10).

Hosea 2

19"I will betroth you to Me forever;

Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice,

In lovingkindness and in compassion,

20And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.

Then you will know the LORD.

I'd like to pose the question. Who is the eternal Bride of Christ? Well...

Ephesians 5

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

Galatians 4

25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27For it is written,

"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;

BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;

FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE

THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh (AN)persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30But what does the Scripture say?

"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,

FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

We are members of the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the Bride of Christ.

Revelation 21

2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

However, the original question is...who killed the apostles and prophets?

God bless.

-Bill

[BlindSeeker]

Guess that depends on your view of revelations, is it prophecy, or is it fulliment or a combination of both eating grass was a example of the end result of the rich king. what king eats grass?. he was lowered to his lowest low he can go from what he percieved as is his highest high (rich/powerful etc) to (playing in the dirt) If this can apply to america today sure I think so. It can also apply to the roman empire. Which was great and had fallen also. I'm use the king as a old world example as it as already happened, but who says it can't happen twice? A grotisique example most know of in the bible is dogs going back to eat there own vomit time and time again. Another example in Jude, is were twice dead, once by sin and again by death.

Nothing like a bunch of questions instead of a simple answer to a question.

[BlindSeeker]

. . . However, the original question is...who killed the apostles and prophets?

I guess I read over that one . . what post was that in?

How many recalled that many of the founding fathers of this country believed that this New World was the New Jerusalem?

Again, just how as modern day Israel made as many as trade by ships of the sea rich?? Is Israel consuming the majority of the world products?

[Guest Shaggy Flasko]

its stuff like this that leaves the RCC and her reformation daughters GUILTY as charged, whenever I bring up the false body called church.

Israels covenants, are NOT conditional. Deuteronomy is a WARNING to individuals of Israel.

Her covenant was not. After all, the promised desolation was a part of the covenant. The blessing, however, of national Israel, after the flesh, was conditional on their obedience.

God told Elijah that he was not the entire "Body/ecclesia"---God kept a remnant set aside for himself, and promised he ALWAYS WOULD. this is for the STARS of Abraham.

God promised that he would GATHER BACK, the descendents of those cut off, from the 4 corners of the earth. he is doing that today.

all the jews returning to Israel today are descendents of fathers who were disobedient.

the pharisee followers.

God is gathering them back to REFINE them. the scriptures say in Ezekiel 12 and 13, ONLY 1 out of 3, will be the 'ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" IN ROMANS.

You're taking the Romans reference from Romans 11, I think. Check out what Paul says there.

Romans 11

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Israel would be regathered when the gentiles were grafted in.

the only condition is one have Faith in God, or not.

Are you saying that faith is unnecessary?

the romans 9 scriptures point to the STARS of Abraham----those of faith, also known to some as "spiritual Israel"----its the ECCLESIA/QAHAL---not church.

Why isn't spiritual Israel in reference to the Church?

Abraham also has "SANDS"---which is his earthly brethren, both Isaac and Ishmael, but----IT IS THROUGH ISAAC, your seed shall be reckoned..

Romans 9

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Galatians 3

29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

anyone who thinks Israel is 'dead", best read genesis 12, and not place any curse upon themselves, which the USA is the last that will do so..

I'm not suggesting that Israel is dead. However, I am suggesting that all who are in Christ, regardless of physical heritage, are part of God's chosen nation. They are the Israel of promise, the circumcision of the heart.

Don't believe me. Believe the scriptures.

God bless.

-Bill

[Guest Shaggy Flasko]

I guess I read over that one . . what post was that in?

Well, I wasn't referring to the original poster. I discussed it in my first post on this thread.

God bless.

-Bill