What is biblical discipleship and to whom was the Great Commission given?

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I didn't peg the end of the Jewish age as the resurrection.  The resurrection of all believers will occur 'when He comes', a clear reference to the Second Advent.  Which occurs at the end of the Tribulation.

Could you quote a post where your claim is refering to?

Quote

All this occurred during the Jewish age, before Jesus was risen.

 

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Simply the fact that the New Jerusalem has 12 foundations, with the names of the apostles on them.  One name per foundation.  Consider Matthias.  Who came up with the plan?  

Acts 1:15 - In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:  “‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ =nd,
“‘May another take his place of leadership.’  

v.21 - Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

It was Peter's idea.  He didn't have the best reputation among the disciples during the Lord's ministry.  Actually, none of them did.  They were scared to death in the violent storm when Jesus was sleeping.  They had no faith.  

It was men who chose the 2 for God to choose.  The plan didn't come from God at all.  Paul's choice was crystal clear from the start.  No human was involved in that choice.

Acts 9:5 - “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.  “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

This was Paul's election.  And what he was chosen to do.

Act 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 - I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

This choice was only of God.  Unlike the choice of Matthias.  And compare the coverage of Paul's ministry compared to whatever Matthias did.  No comparison.  Paul did more and wrote more than any other apostle.  Paul even had to brace Peter for his cowardice.

The choice is laid forth in the grammar of the inspired Psalmist. "May another take his place of leadership". This could mean Matthias, another or Paul. The idea was established perhaps 1,000 years before Peter by inspiration. But then the limit is set. the one chosen must "... have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us". It is obvious that Paul did not fit this requirement. Or, you can claim that the choices of the Apostles, throughout Acts, were the choice of men, starting with the deacons of Jerusalem and with Paul and Barnabas.

So I guess the choice is yours. Men decided on Matthias, or the God of Daniel 2, Who claims that He does as He wishes among men and instates whom He will. But you should then be consistent and deny both Peter, the eleven and the Psalmist, the council of Jerusalem.

But perhaps we can end the "you say ... I say". You'll notice that I deleted my posting after 11 minutes. That you read it and quoted it must be of the Lord. I had the distinct feeling my posting brought no edification. It's like two pre-teens arguing in the sandlot. So, I grant you your position, even if I believe otherwise.

[FreeGrace]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When I said:  

Quote

All this occurred during the Jewish age, before Jesus was risen.

I was referring to what Jesus was teaching His disciples.  Where did I mention "resurrection" in my post?

The choice is laid forth in the grammar of the inspired Psalmist. "May another take his place of leadership". This could mean Matthias, another or Paul. The idea was established perhaps 1,000 years before Peter by inspiration. But then the limit is set. the one chosen must "... have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us". It is obvious that Paul did not fit this requirement.

I disagree.  We know that Paul was taught "by revelation", per Gal 1:12 - I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.  Then, Paul said this:

Gal 1:15 - But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

iow, after his conversion, Paul went into Arabia.  Why?  Obviously to be taught by Jesus.  How long do you suppose Paul stayed in Arabia?  I think the next verse tells us.

v.18 - Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.

What does "then" refer to?  After he had been taught by revelation by Jesus Himself, in Arabia.  Because Paul notes the 3 years (nearly the SAME amount of time that Jesus taught "the eleven") he returned to Jerusalem to meet Peter.

The Bible specifically notes what Jesus said to "the eleven":  Matt 28:20 - and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The command to "go and make disciples" was to "the eleven", not Matthias.  Jesus taught "the eleven" much more than He did to the crowds.  And, Jesus taught in parables to the crowds, which even "the eleven" didn't understand.'

So, there's no evidence that Matthias got the same teaching as "the eleven".  But there is evidence that Paul did.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Or, you can claim that the choices of the Apostles, throughout Acts, were the choice of men, starting with the deacons of Jerusalem and with Paul and Barnabas.

No human chose Paul.  The deacons are not at issue.  The issue is to whom was the G given?  And the answer is "the eleven", as noted in the 3 texts given in the OP.

And since Rev 21:14 mentions that the nanes of the 12 apostles will be on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, one must think about whose name will be on the 12th.  We will all know in the Millennium because we'll be able to see all the names.  But my bet is on Paul, who outshined them all.  

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

So I guess the choice is yours.

The choice is for everyone.  You're making one too.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Men decided on Matthias, or the God of Daniel 2, Who claims that He does as He wishes among men and instates whom He will.

Doesn't apply.  It was Peter's plan and basically a roll of the dice, and claiming it was from God.  Did God tell Peter to choose between only 2 men and then roll and dice and God would cause the dice to land a certain way?  No, that was man's plan to "hurry along" God's plan.  But you can't rush God.  His plan unfolds in His own time.  Not ours.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But you should then be consistent and deny both Peter, the eleven and the Psalmist, the council of Jerusalem.

Now, why would I deny Peter or the other 10?  The Bible is very clear to whom Jesus gave the GC.  It was Peter and 10 others.  In EVERY text that refers to the GC, we find the words "the eleven", which I quoted in the OP.

And why even mention David?  He wasn't an apostle to whom Jesus stated Matt 28:19,2o, nor the council of Jerusalem.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But perhaps we can end the "you say ... I say".

I didn't start it.  I said what the Bible says.  So it's what the Bible says and what you say, basically.  The only "evidence" you have is the plan of Peter.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You'll notice that I deleted my posting after 11 minutes.

Well, I figured that out.  

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

That you read it and quoted it must be of the Lord.

Rather, I began my response to your post before you deleted it.

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I had the distinct feeling my posting brought no edification. It's like two pre-teens arguing in the sandlot. So, I grant you your position, even if I believe otherwise.

We are all free to make our own choices about what we believe.  I have given my reasons from the Bible as to why I am convinced that Paul's name will be on the 12th foundation, not Matthias.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 5/16/2024 at 8:42 AM, FreeGrace said:

It seems the vast majority of evangelicals around the world believe that the Great Commission (GC) is for EVERY believer.  In many "discipleship seminars" the phrase "each disciple make a disciple", based on the GC, is heard often.

So, let's consider what the Bible says about the GC.

Matt 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Mark 16:14 - Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.  15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Acts 1:1 - In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach  2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So, from these 3 passages, it is clear that Jesus gave the GC to 11 men.  By this time, Judas had already gone to "where he belongs".  

Previously, Jesus chose 'the 12' and named them 'apostles'.  

Luke 6:13 - When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:

From the book of "the Acts of the Apostles", written by Dr Luke, it is clear that it was the 11 apostles who "went into all the world" making disciples and teaching them 'everything' that Jesus had taught them.

iow, the GC was to commission the 11 apostles to establish churches throughout the known world and teach them what Jesus taught the 11.

Interesting that there is no mention of the GC in the NT; of believers being either encouraged or commanded to "make disciples" and teach them everything that Jesus taught the 11.

However, there is a passage that parallels the GC.

Eph 4:11 - So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

In v.11 are the spiritual gifts of TEACHING.  All of which include 'making disciples' or evangelizing the unsaved.  

v.12 presents the PURPOSE of these spiritual gifts:  to prepare (equip) believers in a local assembly for "works of service", which will result in "the body of Christ being built up".

iow, believers are to be taught what Jesus taught the 11 apostles so that they can serve the "body of Christ" in order to build up the body.

Today, since there are no 'apostles' or 'prophets', it is the evangelists, pastors and teachers who fulfill the GC.  

 It is the "pew warmers" who need to be taught everything that Jesus taught the 11 apostles so that believers can serve one another which will build up the body of Christ.

The great commission is for ALL believers. There are many things said in the Bible that may have originally been said to only a few people but were clearly meant for all. Jesus told Nicodemus alone about being "Born Again" yet it's widely quoted and believed by millions today. Was the term Born Again only for Nicodemus? There are other examples, but I think you understand my point. Besides, if the great commission wasn't for everyone, then it would be a great contradiction that millions who have brought glory to God were disobedient. 

[FreeGrace]

9 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The great commission is for ALL believers.

Then WHY in all 3 texts that refer to it does Jesus speak only to "the eleven"?

And why doesn't ANY of the NT writers include the GC in ANY of the epistles to the various congregations?

9 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

There are many things said in the Bible that may have originally been said to only a few people but were clearly meant for all.

Right.  Jesus told "the eleven" to make disciples AND to teach them everything He taught "the eleven".  

9 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Jesus told Nicodemus alone about being "Born Again" yet it's widely quoted and believed by millions today. Was the term Born Again only for Nicodemus? There are other examples, but I think you understand my point. Besides, if the great commission wasn't for everyone, then it would be a great contradiction that millions who have brought glory to God were disobedient. 

Not relevant.  The issue to whom was the GC given?  The Bible SAYS "the eleven".

btw, Acts 1:15 says that "in those days, the number of disciples was 120.  Jesus spent 3.5 years teaching His apostles what they needed to know so they could evangelize and teach.  That's why we have the book called "Acts of the apostles".

[Marathoner]

It seems that we disagree in concept, @FreeGrace. We recall that during the days of shadows (of Christ) and types (pointing toward His coming and work), only the prophet was given the Spirit by the Lord. This changed when the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled as God sent His Spirit into the world:

First, to dwell with us just He did with the prophets of old;
And secondly, to reason with all men and women regarding sin and unrighteousness. 

Just as it applies to prophets (all of us are prophets), my understanding of the pastor differs radically from the understanding of many. A pastor is not appointed by an ecclesiastical organization; the pastor is called and equipped by the Lord alone. A pastor might indeed be formally trained and appointed by an ecclesiastical organization, but that is only according to the will and purpose of God. A pastor does not wield authority, for a pastor is a servant. The only leader we have is Jesus Christ --- this is in keeping with the words of the Lord.  

Edited May 18 by Marathoner

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

It seems that we disagree in concept, @FreeGrace. We recall that during the days of shadows (of Christ) and types (pointing toward His coming and work), only the prophet was given the Spirit by the Lord. This changed when the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled as God sent His Spirit into the world:

First, to dwell with us just He did with the prophets of old;
And secondly, to reason with all men and women regarding sin and unrighteousness.

So far, I agree with all of this.

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

 Just as it applies to prophets (all of us are prophets)

I certainly disagree here.  You are conflating the prophecy of Joel with spiritual gifts.

Some are evangelists, some are pastors, some are teachers.

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

my understanding of the pastor differs radically from the understanding of many. A pastor is not appointed by an ecclesiastical organization; the pastor is called and equipped by the Lord alone.

Actually, that is naive.  I'm sure there are many pastors who entered the ministry for various reasons.  That would easily explain WHY there is such burnout of pastors today.  

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

A pastor might indeed be formally trained and appointed by an ecclesiastical organization, but that is only according to the will and purpose of God.

That isn't at issue.

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

A pastor does not wield authority, for a pastor is a servant.

Well, that's wrong.  The pastor is she shepherd of the flock.  Never read 1 Peter 5?  

Shepherd LEAD the sheep.  They don't serve the sheep.

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

The only leader we have is Jesus Christ --- this is in keeping with the words of the Lord.  

I disagree again.  God gives all authority for the organizing of societies and communities.  The head of the church is the pastor, but you are free to disagree.  Doesn't matter to me.  I know what the Bible says.

If what you say here is correct, then there should be no need for the local church, the assembly and fellowship of believers, etc.  

[Marathoner]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If what you say here is correct, then there should be no need for the local church, the assembly and fellowship of believers, etc.  

That's your assumption. You've done a fair job of misrepresenting my position and what I wrote. That's fine. I'm not one to pursue arguments that go nowhere. Take care.

[Prycejosh1987]

The great commission was given to all. But how that actually looks is diverse. Paul mentions the body having different parts which work together as a whole. We all have a purpose and that looks different to each person. Some teachers, others pastors, and others donating, and others prophecy. Others healers and others other purposes. The point is everyone can do something.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I disagree.

I think this is the center of the matter. This what you disagreed with;

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection (Act.1:20–22)

Paul did NOT accompany with the 12 during the time between the baptism of John and the same day He was taken up. You yourself have just testified that he had personal training well after that by the Lord.

Other brothers have given scripture in this thread that indicates testifying of the Lord Jesus is the duty of all Christians. These you have disagreed with as well. It seems that that is the only way to teach such a damaging tradition - disagree with scripture. I suppose the next thing will be that only Pharisees must be born again because he spoke only to Nicodemus. Or maybe sick people need the physical spittle of Jesus to be healed.

You keep using the concept of The Great Commission, but yet to show it in scripture. I suppose you "disagree" with what the bible says about Apollos. After all, he taught the wrong baptism;

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (Ac 18:24–25).

He wasn't one of the eleven, nor was he one of your twelve now that Paul was there. He did all that you deny, and the inspired record says he had the necessary talent.

But this is not all because 1st Corinthians 14 says that infidels can come into an Assembly and be converted just by the behavior of the average saint!

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth (1 Co 14:24–25)

This all you "disagree" with. I'm sure you need to examine your motives. There are young Christians on this Forum. Are you not afraid of God's warning in 1st Corinthians 3?

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

That's your assumption. You've done a fair job of misrepresenting my position and what I wrote. That's fine. I'm not one to pursue arguments that go nowhere. Take care.

Yes. Our friend is very selective in his answers, and uses half quotes when he is not misrepresenting what others have said. Soon he'll be advocating the eating of blood because God only gave the prohibition to Noah.

I always look at the end of a doctrine. What will it come to if followed to its logical end. This one is a whopper. It bans the preaching of Christ when the "eleven" are dead.