Breaking with tradition

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

Speaking for myself when I read the gospels I see two groups

group 1 is made up of Jews and Gentiles that accept the one sent by God the Father

Jesus the Christ.

group 2 is as in John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. This other group is Israel and Juda which God will ake into one nation and cause them to believe on  Jesus.

The other sheep Israel and Juda did not accept Jesus as savior however in Jere 30 

3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

so what  about Johns preaching to Israel?

Ma 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 18:9  That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
 

Edited June 8 by Anne2

[Marathoner]

"Other sheep" refers to Gentiles.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

"Other sheep" refers to Gentiles.

Yeah, but it is about timing here. The law prophesies about those who undergo punishment for their sins. It is of long endurance. It comes at intervals, each pause waits (patience of God) for repentance. Then comes another wave of punishment for those which do not repent.This is for Israel (deut and Lev.) Gentiles are not involved here, but are spoken of when he is DONE punishing them.

The nations from the start were judged right from Egypt on. How they responded to Israel was the standard. The nations they passed by were to sell them food and water as they passed by....

Deut 23:3  An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
4  Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
 

Even the wicked nations to be destroyed (7 of them at that time)

De 20:10  When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
De 20:11  And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
De 20:12  And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

When you think about it, a similar thing went on with Pharaoh. At the beginning it was a three day journey, to offer sacrifices to their God. Implying they would be back....

Ex 5:3  And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days’ journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

Even this was to not offend.

Ex 8:26  And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?

I believe what you always see with the nations....Giving them no cause for their response. They harden their hearts, or God does it because he wants to destroy them? Either way GOD IS A JUST JUDGE. As Abraham knew.

Gen 23 ¶  And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24  Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25  That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26  And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27  And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28  Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

We know the end of this exchange.. 10

32  And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

It will be so when the time of Judgment on the nations. But first Israel is punished that have not escaped it. Those nations that provided that punishment will also receive theirs. We in Christ will escape the judgement coming on our nations. That is how I see it anyway.

Whenever and however it is....a stark warning.. So while Abraham got it to ten men. See Ezekiel.

14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
13  Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14  Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
15  If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: {spoil: or, bereave }
16  Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

17  Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
18  Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
19  Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
20  Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
 

Edited June 8 by Anne2

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

so what  about Johns preaching to Israel?

Ma 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 18:9  That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
 

My understanding may have some glitches I learned only through prayer and my on understanding. I am not perfect by any measure. I have no formal teaching other than 12th grade.

I see some of Israel and some of Juda  and some Gentiles rejected Jesus  those are one group.

I see some of Israel and some of Juda and some Gentiles accepted and follow Jesus they are another group.

In the  end  times Israel and Juda will become one nation and will accept Jesus as Savior.

Jere 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Jere 30

3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Ezk 37

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ezk 36

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[Anne2]

4 minutes ago, NConly said:

My understanding may have some glitches I learned only through prayer and my on understanding. I am not perfect by any measure. I have no formal teaching other than 12th grade.

You have more "formal" teaching than I. 10th grade was as far as I went, I did years later get my GED. So I have no formal training. Just bible study pretty much on my own. We all contribute to each other here. Whether we find ourselves in agreement or disagreement we all help each other in it. IMO. 

Edited June 8 by Anne2

[NConly]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

You have more "formal" teaching than I. 10th grade was as far as I went, I did years later get my GED. So I have no formal training. Just bible study pretty much on my own. We all contribute to each other here. Whether we find ourselves in agreement or disagreement we all help each other in it. IMO. 

your comprehension seems to better. 

[Anne2]

23 minutes ago, NConly said:

your comprehension seems to better. 

Well thanks. At my age that might be short lived LOL

[Luther]

On 5/23/2024 at 5:03 AM, JohnD said:

An example of how easily misled mankind (human beings) are:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This innocuous passage prove that most Bibles and most Christian circles fail to even rightly divide the word of truth categorically:

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For tradition has placed the dividing line between Old and New Testaments between Malachi 4:6 and Matthew 1:1. Bibles, study Bibles, commentaries, Bible  software often contain bold title or even a title page between the two verses "NEW TESTAMENT" when clearly Hebrews 9:16-17 states the Old Testament did not end and the New Testament did not begin until the death of our LORD on the cross.

So what's the big deal?

It IS a big deal!

Everything prior to the death of the LORD Jesus on the cross is Old Testament and under the Law of Moses. Not understanding this or acknowledging this fact is a hole that legalism passes through to taint the theology of Grace.

Example:

Matthew 6:14–15 (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That is Old Covenant Old Testament law (Isaiah 58:5-6 / Exodus 23:21).

There are many such examples where legalism and the satanic mingling of the two covenants occurs by simply putting the dividing line between the two covenants in the wrong place.

And notice how universally misled the Church has been.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

New Covenant New Testament Grace is:

1. Christ died for all human sin (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2)

2. Faith alone in Christ Jesus alone activates this grace in our individual lives (John 3:16-18 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29, John 16:27)

I disagree with #1 and #2. What a great way to start, right?

( Disclaimer: This does not mean that I do not respect those who hold to these beliefs, nor do I not consider them brethren.)

There are those Christians who do not agree with number one and two not based on how we feel salvation  ought to he, but through years of careful scripture study. 

This could prove to be a long-running post. There are so many verses to consider. 

(Regarding #1) Please allow me to start with 1 Timothy 4:10. This verse does not mean that Christ died for every human being. It's simply stating the fact that in this world Christ is the only Savior. He is the Savior of all. It doesn't say that He is the atonement for all. 

John 4:42 KJV
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Titus 3:4 KJV
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

........................................

( Regarding #2) Our faith "activates" nothing. If salvation was based on our ability to do something, no one would be in heaven. Ephesians 2:8 comes right out and says " and that ( faith)  not of yourselves". If it's not our faith that saves us then whose can it be? 

Romans 3:22 KJV
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The righteousness of God ( unto salvation) is literally through the faith of Christ. 

Edited June 9 by Luther
lessened the commentary

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

I disagree with #1 and #2. What a great way to start, right?

( Disclaimer: This does not mean that I do not respect those who hold to these beliefs, nor do I not consider them brethren.)

There are those Christians who do not agree with number one and two not based on how we feel salvation  ought to he, but through years of careful scripture study. 

This could prove to be a long-running post. There are so many verses to consider. 

(Regarding #1) Please allow me to start with 1 Timothy 4:10. This verse does not mean that Christ died for every human being. It's simply stating the fact that in this world Christ is the only Savior. He is the Savior of all. It doesn't say that He is the atonement for all. 

John 4:42 KJV
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Titus 3:4 KJV
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

........................................

( Regarding #2) Our faith "activates" nothing. If salvation was based on our ability to do something, no one would be in heaven. Ephesians 2:8 comes right out and says " and that ( faith)  not of yourselves". If it's not our faith that saves us then whose can it be? 

Romans 3:22 KJV
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The righteousness of God ( unto salvation) is literally through the faith of Christ. 

Not to derail this further, but I said Christ died for all human sin not all human beings who still must believe in him to activate this prepaid salvation for all human beings (1 John 2:2). John 3:16-18 clearly indicates this is NOT universalism. 

Now let's please get back on topic!

[JohnD]

14 hours ago, Anne2 said:

The Lord's supper is the seder from Christ.

I strongly recommend attending / studying Passover Seder (especially Messianic). In it you will find everything points to Yeshua Jesus the Messiah. Even the afikomen (broken matzoh) which is a Greek word that found its way into the non-messianic Seder which they cannot explain.