Theistic Evolution

[Sparks]

27 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Well, that's a testable assumption.   Setting aside the YE creationist religion they call "evolution", we'll focus on the actual observed phenomenon and the scientific theory that describes it. 

First question:   What do you think the scientific definition of biological evolution is?

Tell us about it.   Then we'll get down to the key points of evolutionary theory and the evidence for them.

What do you have?

We have been through this.  They change definitions often, like Microsoft Revision Numbers.  I don't think you have any clue about evolution theory, and won't enter the time sink with you, again.

[The Barbarian]

8 minutes ago, Sparks said:

We have been through this.  They change definitions often

It's been "change in allele frequency since I became a biology student in the 1960s.   So you've been badly misled about that.

9 minutes ago, Sparks said:

I don't think you have any clue about evolution theory

For example, you didn't know how long the scientific definition has been in place.    So there is that.

9 minutes ago, Sparks said:

won't enter the time sink with you, again.

If there's anything you want to know, let me know, and we'll talk.

 

[Sparks]

7 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

It's been "change in allele frequency since I became a biology student in the 1960s.   So you've been badly misled about that.

For example, you didn't know how long the scientific definition has been in place.    So there is that.

If there's anything you want to know, let me know, and we'll talk.

We will never agree on evolution theory, definitions, vaccine safety, the meaning of Biblical scripture, or much of anything else.  I cannot take any of your arguments seriously.      

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Most of the world's Christians belong to denominations that admit evolution is consistent with His word.

I have never met one who could make that claim without taking verses out of context and ignoring conflicting verses.  Either that or by evolution they acknowledge that species do adapt over time, but nothing ever transitions from one kind to another.  One cannot believe in common descent and special creation.  Either you believe God when He said that He created the heavens, the earth and all that is in them in six days, or you believe in evolution.  One or the other MUST be a lie.  To believe both, you have to understand neither.  Any rational person can see that the two claims to origination are in conflict.

[RV_Wizard]

6 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Yes, he shared the YE creationist notion that there are different biological human races, with some better than others. 

You should really stop lying.  YEC has NOTHING to do with racism.  It deals with believing in the BIBLE when the BIBLE says that God created the word in six days.  PERIOD.  It is also a lie to claim that it is a new idea.  DOUBTING the six day creation is the new idea.  

[RV_Wizard]

43 minutes ago, Sparks said:

We have been through this.  They change definitions often, like Microsoft Revision Numbers.

Exactly!  When they are called on their religious claims, they say that evolution is merely changes over time.  Then they go back to spewing common origin garbage, outright lying about what the Bible teaches and claiming that humans and daffodils share ancestry.  You simply cannot promote evolution without knowingly lying.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

You should really stop lying.  YEC has NOTHING to do with racism. 

Well, let's take a look... From Henry Morris, Co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research:

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.

Henry Morris The Beginning of the World, 1991

All this racist blather is completely false.   There are no biological human races.   Morris was one of the founders of the YE creationist movement among evangelicals; Morris was an associate of George McCready Price, the SDA evangelist who introduced YE creationism to Protestants.

Again, I must point out that many, if not most YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism.   Being YE does not automatically mean that one is racist.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

It deals with believing in the BIBLE

The Bible doesn't say that there are inferior human races.   That excuse won't fly.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

DOUBTING the six day creation is the new idea.  

As you learned, many ancient Christians knew the days of Genesis were not literal days.    And many Jewish theologians knew this also.  Would you like me to show you again?

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

We have been through this.  They change definitions often

 

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

It's been "change in allele frequency since I became a biology student in the 1960s.   So you've been badly misled about that.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

 

Exactly!

When YE creationists are called on this, they always toss up their own definitions, pretending that those faked definitions are what scientists say.     But there's really no point in such lies.  

Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with inherited modification.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolution-101/an-introduction-to-evolution/

Evolution is a process that results in changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/definition/evolution-78/

Evolution in its contemporary meaning in biology typically refers to the changes in the proportions of biological types in a population over time

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution/

 

 

Edited August 23, 2024 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Most of the world's Christians belong to denominations that admit evolution is consistent with His word.

 

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

One cannot believe in common descent and special creation. 

Since "special creation" is not an orthodox Christian belief, that's not a problem for Christians.    Indeed, that is more commonly found in Muslim beliefs than among Christians.

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

.  Either you believe God when He said that He created the heavens, the earth and all that is in them in six days

As you learned, the second chapter of Genesis says it happened in one day.   This is another reason we know that the Creation story is not a literal history.

Why not set your pride aside and just let it be God's way?

 

[Sparks]

11 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Well, let's take a look... From Henry Morris, Co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research:

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.

Henry Morris The Beginning of the World, 1991

All this racist blather is completely false.   There are no biological human races.   Morris was one of the founders of the YE creationist movement among evangelicals; Morris was an associate of George McCready Price, the SDA evangelist who introduced YE creationism to Protestants.

Again, I must point out that many, if not most YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism.   Being YE does not automatically mean that one is racist.

The Bible doesn't say that there are inferior human races.   That excuse won't fly.

As you learned, many ancient Christians knew the days of Genesis were not literal days.    And many Jewish theologians knew this also.  Would you like me to show you again?

 

When YE creationists are called on this, they always toss up their own definitions, pretending that those faked definitions are what scientists say.     But there's really no point in such lies.  

Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with inherited modification.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolution-101/an-introduction-to-evolution/

Evolution is a process that results in changes in the genetic material of a population over time.

https://www.nature.com/scitable/definition/evolution-78/

Evolution in its contemporary meaning in biology typically refers to the changes in the proportions of biological types in a population over time

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution/

When the definitions change, you are debating a moving target.  Often with you, everyone has to debate links rather than you.

[The Barbarian]

36 minutes ago, Sparks said:

When the definitions change, you are debating a moving target.

I don't have to debate creationist invented definitions.  I only need to show you what the actual definition is.   Notice those sources all say the same thing.   And as I mentioned, that's been the case at least for a very long time. 

Darwin, for example, described it as "descent with modification."   So it's been essentially the same from the beginning.    The only major difference is that modern definitions describe descent with modification in terms of genes and alleles.

39 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Often with you, everyone has to debate links rather than you.

It's best to document one's claims.    In science, that's how it works.   From my discussions with clerics, that's how it works in theology, too.