Theistic Evolution

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The death God spoke of to Adam was not a physical one.

Coincidentally, the pastor spoke about this just this evening.  God is a triune being, consisting of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.  He created man in His image; with body, soul and spirit.  God said Adam and Ever would surely die.  He did not say immediately.  They died spiritually that day.  Their connection to God was lost.   They brought a curse into the world.  Man was created perfect with perfect free will, and he chose to break God's law.  Because of that, sin and death came into the world.  

47 minutes ago, Diamond said:

Common descent means a common ancestor. Science call out common ancestor Adam.

Were that true there would be no argument.  By common ancestor, they mean that man, apes, flowers and frogs all evolved from one magic Frankencell.  They deny the existence of Adam because the real Adam had no parents.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Coincidentally, the pastor spoke about this just this evening.  God is a triune being, consisting of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.  He created man in His image; with body, soul and spirit.  God said Adam and Ever would surely die.  He did not say immediately. 

Well. let's see what God says...

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

So your pastor's excuse won't stand up against God's word.

 

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

What you said was that the earth brought forth life and you used that to support evolution and common descent, when the actual text goes on to say that it all came about in one day. 

As you know, since there can't be mornings and evenings without a sun, Christians have always known that the "days" were not literal 24-hour days.

 

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Again with the lie.  As I showed you, God Himself affirmed the six day creation.  Is it your profession that He lied about it? 

You're merely assuming that He was referring to literal 24-hour days.   Which the text itself says is not the case.

 

[Sparks]

11 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I believe God is truthful.   Assuming that, there is no way to make that "death" a physical one.

Have you ever noticed that you have to make terms figurative whenever there is a conflict between evolution theory and the Bible?  Now it's death that is figurative, not just a 24 hour day that you think really lasts trillions of years.

[Diamond]

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

And nothing in science rules out a pair of humans who were the ancestors of all living today.

Everyone is related to everyone. That is why they were able to show that all the presidents are related to one another. a genealogical study revealed that 42 out of 43 U.S. presidents (up to that point) were descendants of King John of England¹.

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

So your pastor's excuse won't stand up against God's word.

Frankly, you're the last person who's word I would take over a pastor with 47 years experience.  I'm not sure which translation you are using.  Here is the KJV:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Close, but not quite the same.  Yes, death was sure the moment he ate the fruit.  Adam died spiritually.  He was created perfect with no expiration date.  When he broke the law, death and disease came into the world.  One son even murdered another.  God still have work for Adam to do.  When God was ready, Adam and Eve died.  Had they eaten from the Tree of Life, they would be alive today.

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As you know, since there can't be mornings and evenings without a sun, Christians have always known that the "days" were not literal 24-hour days.

Wow! A repeatedly disproven claim and a lie in one post.  As anyone who has ever read any of these threads knows, all you need is a light source and light was created on day one.  Your second statement, the straight up lie, has been disproved to the point where nobody, even you, believes it.  That's why it's a lie rather than simply an inaccurate statement.  Not only did the ancient Jews believe it, the disciples and Jesus did not doubt it.  Of course, prior to Christ there were no Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.  Now we (the saved) have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God (the Holy Spirit); that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man (unsaved) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  Translation: without the Holy Spirit, the word of God is not revealed.  If you read the Bible and cannot understand, it's because you don't have the revelation from the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

You not only do not apparently understand the Bible, you continuously lie about those who do and who have understood it.  Until the 17th century, the six day creation was accepted by nearly all Christians.  It didn't become a point of contention in the US until the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925.  You don't get to create your own history or your own facts.  If your point cannot be made without lying, then your point should never be made.

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Close, but not quite the same.  Yes, death was sure the moment he ate the fruit.  Adam died spiritually.

Not physically.    Because God told him that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   Adam was never immortal, as God later mentions:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

You're starting to get all worked up again, becoming abusive and recycling claims already debunked.   Time for us to stop talking for a while.

 

 

[The Barbarian]

And nothing in science rules out a pair of humans who were the ancestors of all living today.

3 hours ago, Diamond said:

Everyone is related to everyone.

Yep.

3 hours ago, Diamond said:

That is why they were able to show that all the presidents are related to one another. a genealogical study revealed that 42 out of 43 U.S. presidents (up to that point) were descendants of King John of England¹.

It's a fact that almost everyone living today will have no descendants in a few hundred years.    And that wealthy and powerful people tend to have a lot of descendants.

 

[The Barbarian]

11 hours ago, Sparks said:

Have you ever noticed that you have to make terms figurative whenever there is a conflict between evolution theory and the Bible?

So far, you haven't been able to show a conflict.   

11 hours ago, Sparks said:

Now it's death that is figurative

You think spiritual death is figurative?    God disagrees.   Notice that Adam lives on physically for many years after he eats from the tree.   God said he'd die that day.   Either God is wrong, or the death is not a physical death.  

No way to dodge that one.

BTW, the "yom" of the creation story don't refer to periods of time at all, but are categories of creation, as even ancient Christians understood.

Jewish theologians understood this also:

In the Middle Ages, Saadia Gaon argued that a biblical passage should not be interpreted literally if that made a passage mean something contrary to the senses or reason (or, as we would say, science; Emunot ve-Deot, chapter 7). Maimonides applied this principle to theories about creation. He held that if the eternity of the universe (what we would call the Steady State theory) could be proven by logic (science) then the biblical passages speaking about creation at a point in time could and should be interpreted figuratively in a way that is compatible with the eternity of the universe.

It is only because the eternity of the universe has not been proven that he interpreted the verses about creation at a point in time literally (Guide, II, 25), but he still insisted that the creation story as a whole was written metaphorically (Book I, Introduction).

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/genesis-as-allegory/

Aquinas noted that the categories of creation were treated differently in the "days":

Aquinas, on the other hand, disagreed with Augustine. The world was indeed created in 6 successive days and not in one day repeated seven times.^[16] Instead of focusing upon what kind of “day” is meant by the text, Aquinas focused upon how a succession of six days emphasizes the order and sequence of creation that was intended by God.

Aquinas demonstrated that there is a noticeably 3-fold division of creation: first, there is the work of creation, in which the heaven and earth—the original matter for all the rest of creation—were created on day one. Next comes the work of distinction, in which the various parts of creation were made distinct from each other: the heavens, the waters, and the earth. Finally, the last three days of creation are the work of adornment, in which the heavens are adorned with heavenly bodies (sun, moon, stars) and birds; the waters are adorned with sea creatures, and the land was adorned with plants, animals and humanity.

https://biologos.org/articles/pre-modern-readings-of-genesis-1

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by The Barbarian