Theistic Evolution

[The Barbarian]

Just now, Sparks said:

That's the problem.  You don't have evidence. 

As you know, your fellow YE creationists disagree.   Dr. Kurt Wise says the many transitional forms and transitional series of fossils are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

YE creationist Todd Wood admits that there is "gobs and gobs" of evidence for evolution.

And they are scientists; they are actually familiar with the evidence.

2 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You think some guy saying that the first bird hatched from a dinosaur egg is evidence.

I'm showing you that birds still lay dinosaur eggs.   Hard-shelled amniote eggs.   Show us one feature of bird eggs not found in eggs of other dinosaurs.

3 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Was that witnessed, or guessed

Observed.   We have a lot of dinosaur eggs.   We even know that at least some of them were colored like bird eggs.

4 minutes ago, Sparks said:

since no one alive has any true knowledge of it.

Dr. Wise and Dr. Wood disagree.   They are YE creationists but knowledgeable and honest ones.

[Sparks]

4 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

As you know, your fellow YE creationists disagree.   Dr. Kurt Wise says the many transitional forms and transitional series of fossils are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

YE creationist Todd Wood admits that there is "gobs and gobs" of evidence for evolution.

And they are scientists; they are actually familiar with the evidence.

I'm showing you that birds still lay dinosaur eggs.   Hard-shelled amniote eggs.   Show us one feature of bird eggs not found in eggs of other dinosaurs.

Observed.   We have a lot of dinosaur eggs.   We even know that at least some of them were colored like bird eggs.

Dr. Wise and Dr. Wood disagree.   They are YE creationists but knowledgeable and honest ones.

No one has witnessed the first bird hatching from a dinosaur egg.  That is a guess.  Incidentally, if you consider the Bible a source of truth, God made the chicken before the egg.  Evolution from molecules to chickens didn't happen, according to the Bible.  God simply made a fully functional chicken. 

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Sparks said:

No one has witnessed the first bird hatching from a dinosaur egg.

Give us a testable definition of "first bird."    Obviously, birds, being dinosaurs and laying dinosaur eggs, would mean the first bird hatched from such an egg.

They still do.

3 hours ago, Sparks said:

Incidentally, if you consider the Bible a source of truth, God made the chicken before the egg.

That's your revision of scripture, which says no such thing.  

3 hours ago, Sparks said:

Evolution from molecules to chickens didn't happen

Remember, the origin of life is not evolution.   You keep running into that wall.

3 hours ago, Sparks said:

God simply made a fully functional chicken. 

As He does today.    You just don't approve of the way He does it.    And of course, chickens evolved in historical times, so that certainly hadn't happened in Adam's time.    Would you like to learn about that?

 

[Sparks]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Give us a testable definition of "first bird."    Obviously, birds, being dinosaurs and laying dinosaur eggs, would mean the first bird hatched from such an egg.

Prove a chicken came from a dinosaur and you might have something.  Now I don't mean plaster links all over that are opinion based, I mean observed.  I don't mean misinterpreted 'evidence,' I mean observed. 

Without a time machine, you have got nothing.  But you will plaster links anyway.  If only you understood how evidence works, you would toss this stupid theory right into the garbage. 

[The Barbarian]

30 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Prove a chicken came from a dinosaur and you might have something. 

You're still having some trouble getting this right.  Chickens come from dinosaur eggs.   When I asked you to name me one difference between chicken eggs and the eggs of  other dinosaurs and you couldn't name even one.

31 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Now I don't mean plaster links all over that are opinion based, I mean observed.

We have lots of fossil dinosaur eggs.   Hard-shelled amniote eggs, just like those of birds.    At least some where even colored the way some bird eggs are today.    The observed evidence is very clear.

If you understood how evidence works, this wouldn't be such a problem for you. 

Birds evolved in recent times; God created chickens the same way He creates all living things.

nature  21 January 2021

Origin and evolutionary history of domestic chickens inferred from a large population study of Thai red junglefowl and indigenous chickens

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81589-7

Fossil record of amniote eggs

https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/science/eggshell/eggshell4.php

[Sparks]

6 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

You're still having some trouble getting this right.  Chickens come from dinosaur eggs.  

Based on what actual observation?  What you have described is a guess.

[The Barbarian]

You're still having some trouble getting this right.  Chickens come from dinosaur eggs.  

5 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Based on what actual observation? 

Observation of fossilized dinosaur eggs.  You were unable to find even difference between the eggs of birds and the eggs of other dinosaurs.  Both are hard-shelled amniote eggs.

Even the observation of eggshell microstructure points to the evolution of birds from theropod dinosaurs:
 

The microstructure of avian and dinosaurian eggshell: Phylogenetic implications

Four general types of hard sauropod eggshells can be discerned; “testudoid” (Chelonia) “crocodiloid” (Crocodilia), “dinosauroid” (Sauropodia, Ornithischia) and “ornithoid” (Aves Theropoda).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285310536_The_microstructure_of_avian_and_dinosaurian_eggshell_Phylogenetic_implications

This observed evidence points to the same conclusions as reached by observation of anatomy,genetics, and biochemical data.

16 minutes ago, Sparks said:

What you have described is a guess.

That excuse won't work for you.  All that observed evidence clearly shows the relationships.

 

[Sparks]

10 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Observation of fossilized dinosaur eggs.  You were unable to find even difference between the eggs of birds and the eggs of other dinosaurs.  Both are hard-shelled amniote eggs.

You seem to struggle with observation.  Here is a question, and I am serious.  I want you to answer using the scientific method:

I have a cargo in the trunk of my car.  What is that cargo?

You see, observation is required here to answer my question.  Without observing my open trunk, you cannot know the cargo in my car. 

You have the same issue with the claim that the first bird came from a dinosaur egg.  Your problems are 1), you and no one else observed this first bird hatch and 2), a fossil is not even evidence for evolution, it is simply evidence that something died, and 3), you assume that the fossil evidence is correct but a court (experts in evidence) would laugh you out of the room if you made this claim you make, without evidence like being there with witnesses and a camera. 

You have no evidence or observation, only speculation (guessing).

[The Barbarian]

30 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You seem to struggle with observation.  Here is a question, and I am serious.  I want you to answer using the scientific method:

Well, let's take a look.

30 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You have the same issue with the claim that the first bird came from a dinosaur egg. 

Fortunately, we do have dinosaur eggs with the interior and even the microstructure of the shell preserved.   As you just learned, that structure shows that birds and other theropod dinosaurs have the same shell microstructure, in addition to the same membranes of a typical amniote (dinosaur) egg.

Dinosaur eggshells are divided into one, two, or three layers of distinct ultrastructure.^{[15][16][17][18]}

The innermost layer, known as the mammillary layer or the cone layer, is only found in theropod eggs (the prismatic and ornithoid basic types). It is composed of cone-shaped structures called mammillae at the base of each shell unit. Mammillae are the first part of the eggshell to form. Each mammilla forms from crystals radiating outward from an organic core until they touch neighboring mammillae and grow upwards into the next layer.^[13][15] In spherulitic eggs, the eggs of non-theropod dinosaurs, the eggshell units grow upward from their organic cores; the base of each eggshell unit is rounded, but is not a true mammilla because it does not have a distinct ultrastructure from the top of the unit.^[13][14]

The second layer is alternately called the prismatic layer, the columnar layer, the continuous layer, the crystalline layer,^[13] the cryptoprismatic layer,^[19] the palisade layer,^[15] the spongy layer,^[20] or the single layer.^[21] In this layer, the shell units can be distinct, partially fused together, or entirely continuous.^[14] In some dinosaur eggs, the prismatic layer exhibits squamatic ultrastructure, where the prismatic structure is obscured by a rough texture resembling lizard skin.^[15][14]

Though rare in non-avian dinosaurs, some theropod eggs and most bird eggs have a third layer (known as the external layer) made up of vertical calcite crystals.

Here's a fossil Ovoraptor egg with embyro.  Notice it's tucked just as a bird embryo is right before hatching,and the amnionic membrane is intact.  And yes, the shell has the theropod/avian microstructure.

Quote

a fossil is not even evidence for evolution, it is simply evidence that something died

Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise disagrees:
"Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected  macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

30 minutes ago, Sparks said:

you assume that the fossil evidence is correct

Dr. Wise is a paleontologist.  So that's not at issue.   In court, experts who understand the issue are consulted on things like this.   The judge would laugh you out of the room if you denied his opinion based on nothing more than your say-so.

Dr. Wise has experience, knowledge and a vast body of observed evidence.   You have no evidence or observation, only unsupported denial.

Why not just accept the evidence and be done with it?    You could just declare that birds and other theropods are all one "kind."

Edited September 11, 2024 by The Barbarian

[Sparks]

2 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Well, let's take a look.

Fortunately, we do have dinosaur eggs with the interior and even the microstructure of the shell preserved.   As you just learned, that structure shows that birds and other theropod dinosaurs have the same shell microstructure, in addition to the same membranes of a typical amniote (dinosaur) egg.

Dinosaur eggshells are divided into one, two, or three layers of distinct ultrastructure.^{[15][16][17][18]}

The innermost layer, known as the mammillary layer or the cone layer, is only found in theropod eggs (the prismatic and ornithoid basic types). It is composed of cone-shaped structures called mammillae at the base of each shell unit. Mammillae are the first part of the eggshell to form. Each mammilla forms from crystals radiating outward from an organic core until they touch neighboring mammillae and grow upwards into the next layer.^[13][15] In spherulitic eggs, the eggs of non-theropod dinosaurs, the eggshell units grow upward from their organic cores; the base of each eggshell unit is rounded, but is not a true mammilla because it does not have a distinct ultrastructure from the top of the unit.^[13][14]

The second layer is alternately called the prismatic layer, the columnar layer, the continuous layer, the crystalline layer,^[13] the cryptoprismatic layer,^[19] the palisade layer,^[15] the spongy layer,^[20] or the single layer.^[21] In this layer, the shell units can be distinct, partially fused together, or entirely continuous.^[14] In some dinosaur eggs, the prismatic layer exhibits squamatic ultrastructure, where the prismatic structure is obscured by a rough texture resembling lizard skin.^[15][14]

Though rare in non-avian dinosaurs, some theropod eggs and most bird eggs have a third layer (known as the external layer) made up of vertical calcite crystals.

Here's a fossil Ovoraptor egg with embyro.  Notice it's tucked just as a bird embryo is right before hatching,and the amnionic membrane is intact.  And yes, the shell has the theropod/avian microstructure.

Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise disagrees:
"Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected  macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory."

Dr. Wise is a paleontologist.  So that's not at issue.   In court, experts who understand the issue are consulted on things like this.   The judge would laugh you out of the room if you denied his opinion based on nothing more than your say-so.

Dr. Wise has experience, knowledge and a vast body of evidence.   You have no evidence or observation, only unsupported denial.

Why not just accept the evidence and be done with it?    You could just declare that birds and other theropods are all one "kind."

You see how you just avoided answering my question to plaster more guesses?  Why not try to answer my question?