Theistic Evolution

[The Barbarian]

Goldschmidt had no idea of the evidence back then.

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

That's right, he had no idea of the evidence yet made the statement

It's why he's not very well-regarded in biology.   He happened to be right about that, but he was wrong about so many other things.    As I showed you, he had no idea of the evidence now.   

For a long time, other evidence convinced biologists that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs.   And the evidence showing that birds lay (and hatch from) theropod dinosaur eggs was just further confirmation of this.

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

The false idea that evolution theory is true

You've already seen that it's observed in populations all around us.   Would you like to see some more examples?

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

therefore the bird must have come from a dinosaur or reptile egg is broken thinking.

It was, among modern biologists, an inference from evidence showing that birds are essentially theropod dinosaurs.   Later, research showing that the microstructure of eggs shows that birds lay theropod dinosaur eggs:

Four general types of hard sauropod eggshells can be discerned; “testudoid” (Chelonia) “crocodiloid” (Crocodilia), “dinosauroid” (Sauropodia, Ornithischia) and “ornithoid” (Aves Theropoda).

further confirmed this.

 

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Fossils, incidentally, are not evidence for evolution theory

Your fellow YE creationists disagree with you.   YE creationist Kurt Wise, for example says that they are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."    But of course, Dr. Wise actually knows about the subject.

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

an egg full of birds tells you it is bird egg. 

The egg I showed you had the embryo of an ovoraptor theropod dinosaur.   C'mon.

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

don't do the fake 'trillions of years'

That's your fakery, not mine.   Do you think people don't see that?   

You couldn't even find one character of birds not found in theropod dinosaurs.    Your fellow YE creationist Dr. Wise says the fossils are very good evidence for the evolution of birds, and as you just learned, birds lay and hatch from theropod dinosaur eggs.

48 minutes ago, Sparks said:

and therefore these birds you found are dinosaurs. 

All birds are dinosaurs.   Specifically, theropod dinosaurs.    But the egg I showed you contains the embryo of an ovoraptor, not a bird.   Close to the line that evolved birds, but it's not a bird.

And do spend some time learning about how we know things.   Epistemology can clear up a lot of your confusion.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2024 by The Barbarian

[Sparks]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

And do spend some time learning about how we know things.   Epistemology can clear up a lot of your confusion.

You are the one deeply confused.

He was not well regarded, yet you agree with him and you are making the very same mistake.  It's not just an incorrect use of science, it is a pathetic use of it.  You don't start off with a bad premise, claim it is true, and work off of it.  If you do, next thing you know, you will have a dumb theory like evolution theory claimed as fact.

[The Barbarian]

You couldn't even find one character of birds not found in theropod dinosaurs.    Your fellow YE creationist Dr. Wise says the fossils are very good evidence for the evolution of birds, and as you just learned, birds lay and hatch from theropod dinosaur eggs.

All birds are dinosaurs.   Specifically, theropod dinosaurs.    But the egg I showed you contains the embryo of an ovoraptor, not a bird.   Close to the line that evolved birds, but it's not a bird.

And do spend some time learning about how we know things.   Epistemology can clear up a lot of your confusion.

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

You are the one deeply confused.

I know you're convinced that you understand, but look back at all the errors and confusions you've put out here.   

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

He was not well regarded, yet you agree with him

Goldschmidt got one thing right.   But even that was for the wrong reasons.   Birds lay and hatch from theropod dinosaur eggs because they are dinosaurs and evolved from theropods, not because they are "hopeful monsters."

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

It's not just an incorrect use of science, it is a pathetic use of it.

YE creationists disagree with you.   As you learned, even YE creationists who are familiar with the evidence, indicate that the fossil record is very good evidence for the evolution of birds.

Why not spend a little time, and learn about it?   I've included links to YE creationist sites where you can at least learn what informed creationists think.     It would make you more effective here.

And learn about epistemology so you're clear as to what evidence is and how it lets us know about things.   I left you a link for that as well.   Here's one that doesn't require looking up a book...

https://press.rebus.community/intro-to-phil-epistemology/

Edited September 12, 2024 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

A 66-million-year-old fossil of a complete baby dinosaur in its egg, apparently just a few days before it would have hatched, shows the remarkable similarities between theropod dinosaurs and the birds they would evolve into, according to a study published Tuesday.

The fossilized bones of the embryo, named “Baby Yingliang” after the museum in southern China where it was discovered, can be seen curled up inside its 6-inch elongated eggshell and looking almost exactly like a modern bird at that stage, although it has tiny arms and claws rather than wings.

Oviraptorosaurs, a type of theropod dinosaur with hollow bones and three-toed limbs, were very close to the dinosaur ancestry that evolved into modern birds. As well as beaks, they had feathers on their arms. They couldn’t fly, but there is evidence that they spread the feathers out above their nests to keep the eggs beneath them warm, said John Nudds, a paleontologist at the University of Manchester in the U.K, who wasn’t involved in the study.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/perfectly-preserved-dinosaur-egg-highlights-link-modern-birds-rcna9425

[The Barbarian]

The largest extant theropod is the common ostrich, up to 2.74 m (9 ft) tall and weighing between 90 and 130 kg (200 - 290 lb).^[26] The smallest non-avialan theropod known from adult specimens is the troodontid Anchiornis huxleyi, at 110 grams in weight and 34 centimeters (1 ft) in length.^[22] When modern birds are included, the bee hummingbird (Mellisuga helenae) is smallest at 1.9 g and 5.5 cm (2.2 in) long.^[27][28]

Recent theories propose that theropod body size shrank continuously over a period of 50 million years, from an average of 163 kilograms (359 lb) down to 0.8 kilograms (1.8 lb), eventually evolving into over 11,000 species of modern birds. This was based on evidence that theropods were the only dinosaurs to get continuously smaller, and that their skeletons changed four times as fast as those of other dinosaur species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theropoda

[Sparks]

56 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

All birds are dinosaurs.  

This is ridiculous.  You make this statement and cannot prove it. 

[The Barbarian]

All birds are dinosaurs. 

21 minutes ago, Sparks said:

This is ridiculous. 

Well, let's test your assumption.    Show me one character in birds that is not found in any dinosaur.

What do you have?   You make this statement and cannot prove it.

On the other hand, you've learned that theropod dinosaurs had feathers, hand the bird respiratory system, laid the same eggs as birds, down to the microstructure in egg shells, and had amniote eggs like those of birds.   Even the dinosaur embryoes have the same posture in eggs as birds do.

Why not just admit the evidence that shows birds to be dinosaurs?

 

[Sparks]

27 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Why not just admit the evidence that shows birds to be dinosaurs?

You have no direct evidence for your statement.  The designer, God, used the same building materials to make His living things. 

People use bricks to build houses, driveways, BBQ pits, porches, garden boundaries, walkways, pizza ovens, and thousands of other projects, but evolutionists should not conclude that the bricks have evolved into these various things simply because they spotted bricks being used in them.

[The Barbarian]

3 minutes ago, Sparks said:

You have no direct evidence for your statement. 

Your fellow YE creationists disagree with you...

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence.

https://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2009/09/truth-about-evolution.html

5 minutes ago, Sparks said:

People use bricks to build houses, driveways, BBQ pits, porches, garden boundaries, walkways, pizza ovens, and thousands of other projects

You've confused materials with the structure.   As you see, birds lay and hatch from theropod dinosaur eggs.    Not just the basic structure; it's the same, down to the microstructure of the shell.    All dinosaur eggs, including those of birds use the same materials.   But they are constructed in unique ways for theropod dinosaurs, including birds.

Cakcium carbonate is the same in all structures.   But the way it's formed into different things makes all the difference.   

 

[Sparks]

30 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Your fellow YE creationists disagree with you...

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence.

https://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2009/09/truth-about-evolution.html

You've confused materials with the structure.   As you see, birds lay and hatch from theropod dinosaur eggs.    Not just the basic structure; it's the same, down to the microstructure of the shell.    All dinosaur eggs, including those of birds use the same materials.   But they are constructed in unique ways for theropod dinosaurs, including birds.

Cakcium carbonate is the same in all structures.   But the way it's formed into different things makes all the difference.  

You have no direct evidence.

You know, I think you don't understand evidence, at all.