Theistic Evolution

[Sparks]

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

And you're back to "they are all lying?"   

Someone has to be evil, and deny God. 

10 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Nope.    As you learned, we have a record of C14 levels going back 60,000 years.

What time machine did they use?  I hope you are not going to suggest the debunked ice core drilling.

And I didn't say billions of years are required for C-14 to work, I said about 30,000 are required for C-14 to work, but if billions of years have passed (I know this will be a huge surprise to you), so would 30,000 years have passed.  Libby made the mistake of thinking millions had passed.

You are terrible at this.  You just trot out the old, tired and debunked phrases of the evolutionists and you stick by them, as people keep showing you the truth.  How do you get dressed every day and sit at your keyboard when everyone has to have the ability to see the truth, to even do that?  I have never seen you see the truth, for years, on any topic.  For someone to intentionally be the wrong all the time, never ever agreeing with anyone here, I just don't see how that can happen.

[The Barbarian]

And you're back to "they are all lying?"  

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

Someone has to be evil, and deny God. 

You are not God.   And it is not evil to disagree with you. 

As you learned, we have a record of C14 levels going back 60,000 years.

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

What time machine did they use?

In this case, the varves of Lake Suigetsu shows the fact.   Varves occur annually, a light layer and a dark layer every year.   So a very precise chronology.   And it confirms C14 concentrations and nicely calibrates the system.

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

I hope you are not going to suggest the debunked ice core drilling.

Ice core drilling was verified again by the Lake Suigetsu data.   The evidence comes from a number of independent sources.  

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

And I didn't say billions of years are required for C-14 to work, I said about 30,000 are required for C-14 to work

Nonsense.    Even a few hundred years will give you accurate results.   You're at a disadvantage because you don't have any idea how any of this works, and are just parroting sfuff you read by someone who knows little more than you do.

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

You are terrible at this.  You just trot out the old, tired and debunked phrases of the evolutionists and you stick by them, as people keep showing you the truth. 

I'm not trying to convince you.    But there are others who read these discussions and draw conclusions from the evidence presented.    So you've been very useful after all.

You seem to realize that you're not doing well.    So maybe reason is getting through, after all.

 

 

[The Barbarian]

But you don't get to invent new miracles.  

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I don't have to. 

But you do.   Every time a flaw in your new doctrines is pointed out, your response is "but it's a miracle!"

Why not just be satisfied with God's word as it is?

What do you think are "flood deposits?"

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Those who do not think should not pretend to know what others think. 

Not surprising that you can't answer the question.    Would you like me to link you to a YE creationist who does know what is meant by the term?

You reject the plain language of the Bible, converting "land" to "whole world", because you prefer your way to God's way.

(Denies basins can hold water)

It doesn't take proficiency in mathematics to realize that a basin will hold water.   

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

What happens when water rises 1,000 feet above the surrounding land? 

The basin is filled, and even the high mountains in the basin can be covered.    The great flood that filled the Black Sea basin did that,for example, even the high ground was covered.   Basins don't have run-off to the sea.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Middle east, however, does. 

If that were true, the Black Sea would not exist.

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

If the water in Israel is 12,000 feet above sea level, what is the level of the water in Great Britain?

What makes you think the flood was in Israel or Great Britain?   As you point out, it would not work there.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Barbarian, I don't argue with people but do discuss matters without anger.

I notice.   And it's much appreciated.

  On 9/19/2024 at 2:40 PM, Bruce_Leiter said:

Why do you assume that Adam's body was like the "other animals"?

Because ours are, and we are his descendants.  We are eukaryotes, animals, mammals, primates, hominids, and finally humans.   The latest version of humans.  

Our cells, DNA, biochemistry, and anatomy all show our kinship to other living things.   That's how God made us.   But then, he made us living souls, like Him.    And that made all the difference.

  On 9/19/2024 at 2:40 PM, Bruce_Leiter said:

There are similarities with chimps, of course; but another assumption--a more biblical one, I think--is that the similarities have come about because animals and humans have the same Creator, an idea from my college biology professor.   

There's a clue in the fact that evolutionary processes are more efficient at solving complex problems than design can do.  Engineers have started copying God's way to solve many such problems.     The tools are called "genetic algorithms" and they use random changes and natural selection to hone in on optimal solutions.

God, as usual, knew what He was doing.

  On 9/19/2024 at 2:40 PM, Bruce_Leiter said:

Furthermore, what makes us humans special creations is that God makes us able to relate with him on a personal level.

Yep.   That living soul, given directly by God to each of us.   And one other thing.    

As God mentioned in Genesis, Adam became like him, able to know good and evil.  And thereby potentially capable of fellowship with Him.    But being unable to be truly good, we could not become what we were potentially to be.     Someone had to pay for that sin.     That's why a Savior was needed.

 

Barbarian, how do you interpret the following verses about God's creation of Adam? Is he a special creation, or is he descended from animals?

Gen 1:25  And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 
Gen 1:26  Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. ...

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. 
Gen 2:5  When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 
Gen 2:6  and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— 
Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 
Gen 2:8  And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 

Of course, I interpret them to say that God made Adam as his special creature, not a descendant of ape-like creatures. What do you say about these verses? 

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Every time a flaw in your new doctrines is pointed out, your response is "but it's a miracle!"

You tell more lies than any atheist I ever met.  What I post was old news in 1611.  Gods miracles are just that; not card tricks.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Why not just be satisfied with God's word as it is?

Why do you constantly lie about it?  I post actual Scripture.  You post heresies you cannot back up with Scripture.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

What do you think are "flood deposits?

Flood deposits could exist on practically any low lying land mass in the world, but since silt run-off would follow the draining waters, most of the deposits would be in the bottom of the seas.  Nice try, but I'm not biting.  I've seen floods in action.  When the waters move slowly silt is deposited.  When they move rapidly, silt is suspended.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Not surprising that you can't answer the question. 

Not surprisingly, you pretend to know what you think and what I think based on what others wrote. News flash: I follow the Bible, not Kent Hovind.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It doesn't take proficiency in mathematics to realize that a basin will hold water.   

The notion that the Great Flood was contained in a basin is probably the STUPIDEST claim you've ever made, and you've made some doozies.  Are the mountains of Ararat contained in the Black Sea Basin?  What happened when the flood waters reached the Mediterranean Sea?  The Red Sea?  The Persian Gulf?  The Indian Ocean?  The Atlantic Ocean?

Why not come out and say there is nothing in the Bible with which you agree?  Why do you pretend to believe, and then disagree with every word of Scripture posted?  

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The basin is filled, and even the high mountains in the basin can be covered.  

Anyone who has ever seen a topographical map of the area is laughing hysterically at you right now.  You have absolutely lost all credibility.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

If that were true, the Black Sea would not exist.

More foolishness.  The land under the Black Sea is lower than the surrounding shoreline.  That's how lakes work, you know.  Water pools in low lying areas.

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

What makes you think the flood was in Israel or Great Britain? 

Wow, you can't follow an analogy at all can you?  Water seeks its own level due to the force of gravity.  This force causes water molecules to be pulled towards the center of the Earth, creating a balanced distribution of water at equal levels.  For this reason, water with an easy run-off to the sea could NEVER cover a mountain without the sea rising as well.

What is your plan for tomorrow?  Are you going to argue that bowling balls and beach balls are equally buoyant in a swimming pool?

 

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You tell more lies than any atheist I ever met.

You're getting all worked up and just lashing out again.    I'll give you some time to compose yourself.

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by The Barbarian
erer

[The Barbarian]

5 hours ago, Bruce_Leiter said:

Of course, I interpret them to say that God made Adam as his special creature, not a descendant of ape-like creatures. What do you say about these verses? 

The Rev. Billy Graham had a rather thoughtful comment on this.

 "I don’t think that there’s any conflict at all between science today and the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we’ve tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren’t meant to say. I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact that God did create man. […] whichever way God did it makes no difference as to what man is and man’s relationship to God."

Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man. Chariot Victor Pub., 1997. p. 72

I think he's got it right. 

Edited September 21, 2024 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

I'll give you some time to compose yourself.

You probably should have thought of that before claiming that the Mountains of Ararat are contained in the Black Sea basin.  That's even dumber than claiming that belief in Genesis was invented in the 2oth century by Seventh Day Adventists, or claiming that the verbiage in the 1611 King James Bible is "new doctrine."

How about these quotes from Billy Graham?

Upon this frail foundation of supposition and the wild guesses from those who hate the Bible, the theory of evolution was built.

Higher education teaches the lie that evolution is accomplishing progress and that a new day is about to dawn. A new day will dawn, indeed, when Creator God will send His Son the Lord Jesus Christ back to earth to make all things new.

Graham said many things to many people.  His aim was not to be controversial, but to reach the masses and lead them to the Lord.  Believing in evolution won't send you to Hell, but you will answer to Jesus for everything you say or do that is contrary to His word.  False teachers are not held guiltless for the intention of leading Christians away from their Bible and for causing them to doubt the word of God.  ALL scripture is breathed by the Holy Spirit.  Wisdom is in acknowledging the sovereignty of the Lord.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Rev. Billy Graham had a rather thoughtful comment on this.

 "I don’t think that there’s any conflict at all between science today and the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we’ve tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren’t meant to say. I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact that God did create man. […] whichever way God did it makes no difference as to what man is and man’s relationship to God."

Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man. Chariot Victor Pub., 1997. p. 72

I think he's got it right.    BTW, there are a lot of faked Billy Graham quotes out there.   Usually, if it lacks a citation to a checkable source, it's a fake.

At least one of the supposed quotes above appears nowhere in Billy Graham's sermons or writings.   They were written after his death and published by his son, saying that they were "based on the words and writings of the late Billy Graham."   

As you can see, that is not an honest interpretation of the things Billy Graham actually wrote about evolution.

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

16 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The Rev. Billy Graham had a rather thoughtful comment on this.

You obviously didn't like the quote I supplied, because it doesn't promote your favorite heresy.  How about some others?

“Nowhere was Darwin able to point to one bona fide case of natural
selection having actually generated evolutionary change in
nature….Ultimately, the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more nor
less than the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century.” Michael
Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crises (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler &
Adler, 1986) pp. 62, 358.

“I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest
deceit in the history of science.” Søren Løvtrup, Darwinism: The
Refutation of a Myth (New York: Croom Helm, 1987), p. 422.

“Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great
con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.
In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota of fact.” Dr. T. N.
Tahmisian Evolution and the Emperor's New Clothes by N.J. Mitchell
(United Kingdom: Roydon Publications, 1983), title page.

"The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in the
realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the
product of imagination." Albert Fleischmann. Witnesses Against
Evolution by John Fred Meldau (Denver: Christian Victory Publishing,
1968), p. 13.

“Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped
nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.” Louis Bounoure. The
Advocate, 8 March 1984, p. 17.

“Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.”

Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University), “Paleoecology and uniformitarianism”. Compass, vol. 45, May 1968, p. 216

“Echoing the criticism made of his father’s habilis skulls, he added that Lucy’s skull was so incomplete that most of it was ‘imagination made of plaster of Paris’, thus making it impossible to draw any firm conclusion about what species she belonged to.”

Referring to comments made by Richard Leakey (Director of National Museums of Kenya) in The Weekend Australian, 7-8 May 1983, Magazine, p. 3

“We add that it would be all too easy to object that mutations have no evolutionary effect because they are eliminated by natural selection. Lethal mutations (the worst kind) are effectively eliminated, but others persist as alleles. …Mutants are present within every population, from bacteria to man. There can be no doubt about it. But for the evolutionist, the essential lies elsewhere: in the fact that mutations do not coincide with evolution.”

Pierre-Paul Grassé (University of Paris and past-President, French Academie des Sciences) in Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, p. 88

And my personal favorite: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. - God.

Edited September 22, 2024 by RV_Wizard