A Four Horsemen Perspective

[TCC]

8 hours ago, DavidReese said:

Nice grid. But they are not in the correct order. As in the first trumpet and the interpretations of them. This world we be dead if all the grass is gone. I would place it at the end of time.

Good highlight on "all the grass." God provides. I believe Rev is sequential. I would place trumpet 1 like 1/4 into the tribulation. As i would see trumpet 7 as the midpoint of the 7 years. Blessings. 

[Michael37]

52 minutes ago, TCC said:

I believe the seals are in order because i would see Revelation largely as a linear book.

Amen. To suggest otherwise is to miss the point of the "revelation" as given to us.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, TCC said:

I agree brother. But the USA has the only constitution that has as stated our rights are from God not government. I believe that document could be an insignia for conquer globalist power grab. Blessings. 

Hi, The constitution of the USA does not mention God.* I share of an article that might be of interest, hopefully to many Christians and nonbelievers that Jesus is God. 

https://allthingsliberty.com/2016/02/why-god-is-in-the-declaration-but-not-the-constitution/

 

*The first amendment specifically  forbids establishment of a law regarding religion;" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 

[DavidReese]

15 hours ago, TCC said:

Good highlight on "all the grass." God provides. I believe Rev is sequential. I would place trumpet 1 like 1/4 into the tribulation. As i would see trumpet 7 as the midpoint of the 7 years. Blessings. 

 

⁶ And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

This could affect the grass to burned up

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;⁹ And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This wouldn't affect the grass. Because of the interpretation.

¹⁰ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;¹¹ And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

This would cause grass to be gone if the world spins faster

¹² And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Then three woes. Really

¹³ And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

I may be wrong but I think it is all backwards but didn't touch on the others sounds. Maybe common sense don't apply.

[DavidReese]

Then I look over at the vials. Then this can cause all grass to be burned up

⁷ And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.⁸ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.⁹ And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Again I may be wrong. Common sense says this belongs with the fourth trumpet. I don't know but it's just the way I think ?

[DavidReese]

Hello I'm sorry about all these post just was stuck on the most terrible as I see in Revelation besides not coming to Jesus.

So I do a search on first last. It seems Jesus has a lot to say about it, after all He is the creator. Others say this also. What if the vials are first beginning with the six vial. Because Jesus states the last seven can they really be first ?

• Matthew 19:30
  But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 20:8
  So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 20:16
  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 27:64
  Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Mark 9:35
  And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Mark 10:31
  But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 11:26
  Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 13:30
  And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
•  

[TCC]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:58 PM, Neighbor said:

Hi, The constitution of the USA does not mention God.* I share of an article that might be of interest, hopefully to many Christians and nonbelievers that Jesus is God. 

https://allthingsliberty.com/2016/02/why-god-is-in-the-declaration-but-not-the-constitution/

 

*The first amendment specifically  forbids establishment of a law regarding religion;" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

 

 

Hi brother. First I would like to clarify that by what I percieve my stance is not that America was a Christian nation, or that I align with Christian Nationalism movement. To me, those are both overreaches. As I would understand the constuttion not wanting to empower any religion to control the government. I thank you brother for your thoughtful post and very interesting article. It made me think deeper. But as we know "how the constitution works" is a massive debate within our borders. I thank you for the helpful and engaging article. 

 

From the Artice 

The threefold answer lies in the stated purposes of the Constitution, its religious neutrality, and the theory of government it embodies. Whereas the Declaration explained and justified a rebellion to secure God-given rights, the Constitution is a blueprint for stable and effective republican government in a free country. The Preamble to the Constitution declares that its purposes are “to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty.” These are wholly secular objects; religious references are extraneous in a document drafted to further them.

One way to express this is from the Hillsdale 1 minute video claiming these are two sides of the same coin: 

 

 

From the Article -- Example of 2 Sides

The Constitution established a strong national government to replace the relatively feeble Confederation Congress created by the Revolutionary-era Articles of Confederation, but the Constitution is hardly a document glorifying top-down power. On the contrary, the theory of government underpinning the United States Constitution is popular sovereignty. The government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed, not from an assembly of elders, not from a king or a prelate, and not from a higher power. The stirring opening words of the Preamble, “We the People of the United States,” make it clear both who is establishing the government and for whose benefit it exists. There is no consent required beyond the will of the people for the people to govern themselves.

It is because of the content and context of the declaration that the constitution has the meaning it does. 

From the Article -- 

This criticism confuses an admittedly elitist preference for government by the able with a theory of power emanating from above. The Constitution not only rejected monarchy, but all forms of hereditary privilege and arbitrary rule. It established fixed rules that delimited the powers of the governors, not the rights of the governed. It is to the citizens and the states, not to the executive, that legislators are answerable. The source of all legislative and executive power can be traced, directly or indirectly, to the people.

The declaration underpins why the constition matters. And what it is not. 

 

From the Article  

In place of the divine right of monarchs, the Declaration asserted the divine rights of all men, and both the Declaration and the Constitution source the legitimacy of political rule exclusively in the consent of the governed.

This article affirms the two sides. 

 

From the Article 

The Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution do not therefore represent competing views of the existence of a Supreme Being or its role in American political life. They are two sides of the same coin. When read together, the Declaration and Constitution tell us that the people’s rights are divine in origin, sacred and unalienable, while governments are human in origin, answerable to the people and dependent entirely on their consent.

This article affirms 2 sides itself plainly. 

 

PREAMBLE

I got the following from online.  

The Preamble to the Constitution is not vital from a purely legal perspective, as the Preamble does not have any legal value in and of itself. The Preamble is also a very short part of the Constitution, as it is actually a single sentence, and therefore, does not make up any significant part of the Constitution in terms of length. The importance of the Preamble lies not in these two senses, but instead lies in the precedent the Preamble establishes for the rest of the Constitution.

The Preamble was the Founding Fathers’ way of informing future generations of their motives and intent in writing the Constitution, as well as a way of establishing the most basic principles necessary for consideration of the Constitution. The opening words of the Preamble are “We the People of the United States”, which are perhaps the most well-known words in the Constitution. These words are critical to understanding that the Constitution was designed to establish a government empowered by the will of the people and for the good of the people.

The Preamble has often been used by Constitutional scholars in order to determine how other parts of the Constitution should be interpreted, as the Preamble does outline several basic purposes for the creation of the Constitution. Each of these basic purposes provides insight and understanding into the Constitution but does not actually provide any legal force. When used in court, the Preamble only ever provides an open guide for interpreting the Constitution and never provides any legal rules that must be followed. This has been proven in a number of cases in which a litigant attempted to argue for his position based on the words of the Preamble. Even though the Preamble does not have such legal power, it bears great significance for the Constitution as a whole and for any person’s understanding of that document.

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What the preamble is to the constitution is context framed within and for the constitution. What the declaration of independence is to the constitution is the context and "what it is not" charter. Please see this short Hillsdale 5 minute video regarding linkage. 

So yeah my point is not that the constitution itself (and thank you brother for tightening perspective there) permits us to consider ourselves as endowed by the creator (as born in His image) and therefore, on paper, we affirm this. For that in a way might be too self congratulatory. Or perhaps understood as a perspective feeble people have about their being governed. Almost like a hopeful note that "hey everybody, our document says we get our rights from the creator." Rather, it is written under that assumption. Which is brilliant. 

And not only brilliant but in more ways than one, providentially accurate. For we are surrounded in the Providence. That a ragtag team of people defeat majestrates and form their own country. That such a nation became a refuge for persecuted Jews from all over the world. That said country became the most powerful country in human history. That this nation (on paper and historically) pursues human dignity. These I find to all be attributes of the inaugural providential stamp of "self evident." For it has become so to the whole world now for centuries. Not that it is a nation not without fault. But just that as best mankind in his fallen state might afford, so we have. And so it has been providentially...self evident. 

Officially though I would say that the declaration also serves as context for legal reference...as it seems that the clarifying intent expressed in the decloration afforded amendments that made its way into the constitution...

https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1590&context=facpubs#:~:text=CONSTITUTIONAL INTERPRETATION,-ALEXANDER TSESIS*&text=The Declaration of Independence provides,a foundational rule of interpretation. 

.     .     .     .     

What I am not saying is that the constitution declars Jesus as God. But as Paul clarifies who the "alter to an unknown God" is (Acts 17), and as God used Cyrus to introduce the world to what would later be borrowed upon as democracy and certainly ingredients the founding founders wer so guided in forming a constitution therefrom as well, we who are believers know there is no such thing as other gods or dieties (as meat sacrificed to idols in Corinth were being sacrificed to no one at all...that book declares). 

I would not feel comfortable if the way evangelicals have gone today that they got to define God in the Constituion and ruled as elites. To me, this would be terrifying. Because a sure way to corrupt the church is give it absolute power. So in that sense I would see what is self evident in the concept of creator is more the sense of this: 

"Whoever created us, He, that One, made us...and nature. And that One is the One from whom rights organically derive." 

In that, certainly there can be idolatrous versions of God incerted. But what man even of the Christian faith has a perfect frame of God? I am a Christian and a believer. Jesus is God. We have His word. But we have a lot of denominations, and a lot of bad teaching, and heresy in our Christian world. If some on the further fringes of notions about Christ that would be questionable got to define that as a way to invoke governance...that would be sad. I praise God for the constitution's wisdom not to allow the Church of the US to become the church of England the pilgrims fled to freely worship. It would be one thing if those that left England wanted the freedom to worship a pagan god. But the historical account is that the persuite of religious freedom was not the right to become witches, but the right to see God for who He is -- Wich would certainly transcend the terranical church in England version of Him. 

But the way I see it brother, bottom line, is that the constitution (as frame and in context in reference of the decloration) is the only government structured on the true creator making us in His image. That exact language is not in the declaration nor the constitution. But deriving rights from the "unknown God" = being created in His image, as we know. And as Providence in His hands transcends mere mens views upon Him, well...this is kind of perfect fodder for the 1st seal in my book. There is a certain sense of irony in it all too...lol. 

Of course, brother I may be mistaken. And my view totally not accurate. But the case I would make on some levels is already somewhat self evident. Although, in nowise does this attest to it being the most accurate view. Thanks so much for engaging and interacting in this way. Truly. Blessings. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2024 by TCC

[TCC]

On 9/13/2024 at 4:44 AM, DavidReese said:

 

⁶ And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

This could affect the grass to burned up

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;⁹ And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This wouldn't affect the grass. Because of the interpretation.

¹⁰ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;¹¹ And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

This would cause grass to be gone if the world spins faster

¹² And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Then three woes. Really

¹³ And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

I may be wrong but I think it is all backwards but didn't touch on the others sounds. Maybe common sense don't apply.

Keeping in mind this is God's word and His creation. Our sense of what happens when grass disappears (lets say for the most part...can the grass return in part? or might there be places it remains yet considered as whole?). Just saying. 

The 3 woes:

1. Trumpet 5

2. Trumpet 6 

3 The bowls

Seems to refer to the last sequence of 9 judgements though right? 

[TCC]

On 9/13/2024 at 5:13 AM, DavidReese said:

Then I look over at the vials. Then this can cause all grass to be burned up

⁷ And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.⁸ And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.⁹ And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Again I may be wrong. Common sense says this belongs with the fourth trumpet. I don't know but it's just the way I think ?

Understood. There are different approaches to Revelation. From what I have seen in deep dives over the years is that we do see progress of trumpets after seals. And Rev 15:1 states the bowls as the last. And each of the trumpets and each of the bowls come out of the 7th seal and 7the trumpet. This would arguably be practically mandating that no trumpets come until the 7th seal. And no bowls come until the 7th trumpet. For the seventh seal = trumpets. And the 7th trumpet = bowls. It would appear a way to express linkage almost like in a court of law document clarity, perhaps no? 

[TCC]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:53 AM, DavidReese said:

Hello I'm sorry about all these post just was stuck on the most terrible as I see in Revelation besides not coming to Jesus.

So I do a search on first last. It seems Jesus has a lot to say about it, after all He is the creator. Others say this also. What if the vials are first beginning with the six vial. Because Jesus states the last seven can they really be first ?

• Matthew 19:30
  But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 20:8
  So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 20:16
  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 27:64
  Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Mark 9:35
  And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Mark 10:31
  But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 11:26
  Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 13:30
  And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
•  

I understand but Revelation the way it is written would not imply the first as last judgement. If so, maybe America is Babylon the Great and gets destroyed tomorrow. Or maybe Armegeddon happens first and the rest is all downhill from there? Or maybe angel reapers go out tomorrow to gather clusters of sinners and we have the great supper of God start off the tribulation? I always appreciate poetic thinking. Amen. But I believe the reason God lays it out in Revelation helps us see the flow so as, not to confuse. Blessings.