If I believe in Jesus but do not live a CHristian life...

[Smalcald]

I agree Gerioke, it's not simple and I think we need to talk about it more. Obviously the person who started this thread and numerous others I think is a poser having a good ole time, but the question is a good one.

How isn't it simple? Even Gerioke himself said that we all know how we should be living, even if it's not how we actually are living. Playboys? Get rid of them. It's that simple. Anything else is trying to justify. What is so complicated that it warrants a disscussion?

If it was so simple we wouldn't have so many divorced Christians, if it was simple we wouldn't have so many Christians entangled in numerous sins of the flesh (including myself). This life is very hard and it is a lifelong struggle, flesh against the Spirit. But we also have a comfort that we would not have if we didn't believe, and I think this helps us fight despair.

Christians getting divorced doesn't mean how we are to live is complicated. Christians divorce because of the decisions they make. They divorce because they aren't following the guidelines that the Bible gives us as to how we should live. You can't blame the cure for the disease. The numerous sins of the flesh that you mentioned are the disease. If we know these things are not to be done, why do we do them? We should simply turn away from them. (See my post above to Gerioke.) Debating these things only serves to justify them.

I don't think Christians automatically know or understand what leading a Christian life means today, and part of the role of the Church and Christian discussion like this one is to help with the nitty gritty details of how to live that life.

There is a sense of right and wrong in all of us. It may become skewed by our life experiences and decisions and desensitizing, but, especially with access to God and His Word, we can know what leading a Christian life means today. We can read the Word and see what it means. The meaning hasn't changed. The Bible deals with the nitty gritty details of how to live a Christian life.

Well I agree that we don't need to necessarily debate them, that is not what I mean, but we do need to define them, and offer help and comfort to those trying to follow Christ, and give them guidance. For some yes a sense of right and wrong exists, but not on all issues.

For example there are large numbers of Christians who don't think that living together outside of marriage is wrong and is fornication, they don't know what fornication even is. I have heard people on this very board claim that marriage itself can simply be defined by any couple living together for example, they just can say, we are married right now in the eyes of God and think that they are. These people need our help they need to understand what is meant in the bible. According to Barna research the majority of Christians in the US, including Evangelical Christians do NOT think that divorce is sin. They need help in understanding what the bible teaches; they also need day to day help in relationships and love and what Christian marriage really means.

We need help in understanding that day to day repentance is needed. I have needed that help, I thought for example that once I was saved that my day to day walk would be easier, that I wouldn't sin that I didn't have to worry. Instead, what happened? Temptation increased and I fell, thought I was doomed forever. I had no idea how to do a day to day until the day I die. How hard this struggle is and how to do it is important.

The Playboy example was instructive, are they wrong, of course without a doubt, but how about lust in general? What does it mean exactly, can I look at a women who is not my wife as a married man and find her hot? If not, what are some ways to not sin with my eyes?

I just think we need to help each other more in our day to day walk instead of simply saying this is all easy and in the bible and if we really didn't want to sin we wouldn't. Less emotion and more day to day help are important I think.

[Fiosh]

How much more complicated does it have to be? Jesus set an example for us and gave us instructions and guidelines in how to live. Why debate if it's Christian or not to have a stack of Playboys under your bed or if a person does this thing or that thing? And why seek man's opinion on this? Seriously, we all know how we should live. Playing, "Yeah, but what if..." or "Can a Christian do this thing and still....." is not beneficial.

We all know how we should live and we all know how we do live. Keith, nobody is going to accuse you of being un-christian because you are plainly a man who waches his Ps and Qs. Do you ever do things at any given point in time that you know are wrong? If not then I commend you because you are the only person I know who is perfect. (Sorry for the sarcasm).

My question about he sheep with playboy books is an honest question. Why seek man's opinionon this? This is a discussion forum designed for exchangeing opinions. Can a sinner perform good works? That is ulimately the question. If not, then I might as well give up because I am full of reoccuring sin. If a sinner can perform good works, then it is not as cu and dry as you would suppose. I know many christians who love the Lord with all of their hearts and accomplish much for the kingdom. Alot of these same people have been known to drink excessively, gossip repeatedly, are gluttons and so on. Are these people desined for Heaven or hell? Would Jesus turn His back on a faithful servant even if they are a drunkard?

Deppression runs rampant in the christian community and alhough we are to focus on Jesus, sometimes life hands out more than a person can bare. I hate my iniquity but sometimes it keeps me from going to worse places.

What about a Christian who spends hours reading "Auto Mechanic" or "Sports Illustrated" (not the swimsuit ed.) or "American Hunter" ? Could that time be better spent? How about a Christian who watches hours of baseball or NASCAR or ...... Is it sin to spend hours upon hours of time on activities that do not glorify God or spread the Gospel?

I think your question is a good one, Ger. And I think ANY faith question a Christian has is worth discussing. A point of faith may be crystal clear to some, but foggy to others. We all look at things differently and it helps me at least to see it from another's perspective. I gain a deeper understanding even when I disagree.

So, back to your original questions: "Can a sinner perform good works?" ---I sure hope so! I believe we are all sinners...if we say we are not, according to John, we are liars.

"Can a sheep with a stack of Playboys and a bottle of Jack Daniels under his bed go to heaven?"

If that sheep gets down on his knees, confesses his sin and weakness in sorrow, and vows to overcome his sin. Yeah, he can. As long as he sincerely hates his sin and is determined to overcome it.

(Romans 7:14-25)

Our God is full of gentleness and compassion for His children in their weakness. He demands perfection. True. But, He is long-suffering and merciful upon those who love Him and yearn to be perfect in His eyes, but are still striving to defeat the flesh.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest Alchus]

"Depression is, in all honesty, a selfish emotion that stems from thinking about ourselves too much and not trusting God in the situations that present themselves."

It is statements like these that have kept my life in submission to deppression for 30 years. As hard as I try I cannot view those dark years as "selfish".

Alchus

[Gerioke]

How much more complicated does it have to be? Jesus set an example for us and gave us instructions and guidelines in how to live. Why debate if it's Christian or not to have a stack of Playboys under your bed or if a person does this thing or that thing? And why seek man's opinion on this? Seriously, we all know how we should live. Playing, "Yeah, but what if..." or "Can a Christian do this thing and still....." is not beneficial.

We all know how we should live and we all know how we do live. Keith, nobody is going to accuse you of being un-christian because you are plainly a man who waches his Ps and Qs. Do you ever do things at any given point in time that you know are wrong? If not then I commend you because you are the only person I know who is perfect. (Sorry for the sarcasm).

My question about he sheep with playboy books is an honest question. Why seek man's opinionon this? This is a discussion forum designed for exchangeing opinions. Can a sinner perform good works? That is ulimately the question. If not, then I might as well give up because I am full of reoccuring sin. If a sinner can perform good works, then it is not as cu and dry as you would suppose. I know many christians who love the Lord with all of their hearts and accomplish much for the kingdom. Alot of these same people have been known to drink excessively, gossip repeatedly, are gluttons and so on. Are these people desined for Heaven or hell? Would Jesus turn His back on a faithful servant even if they are a drunkard?

Deppression runs rampant in the christian community and alhough we are to focus on Jesus, sometimes life hands out more than a person can bare. I hate my iniquity but sometimes it keeps me from going to worse places.

What about a Christian who spends hours reading "Auto Mechanic" or "Sports Illustrated" (not the swimsuit ed.) or "American Hunter" ? Could that time be better spent? How about a Christian who watches hours of baseball or NASCAR or ...... Is it sin to spend hours upon hours of time on activities that do not glorify God or spread the Gospel?

I think your question is a good one, Ger. And I think ANY faith question a Christian has is worth discussing. A point of faith may be crystal clear to some, but foggy to others. We all look at things differently and it helps me at least to see it from another's perspective. I gain a deeper understanding even when I disagree.

So, back to your original questions: "Can a sinner perform good works?" ---I sure hope so! I believe we are all sinners...if we say we are not, according to John, we are liars.

"Can a sheep with a stack of Playboys and a bottle of Jack Daniels under his bed go to heaven?"

If that sheep gets down on his knees, confesses his sin and weakness in sorrow, and vows to overcome his sin. Yeah, he can. As long as he sincerely hates his sin and is determined to overcome it.

(Romans 7:14-25)

Our God is full of gentleness and compassion for His children in their weakness. He demands perfection. True. But, He is long-suffering and merciful upon those who love Him and yearn to be perfect in His eyes, but are still striving to defeat the flesh.

Peace,

Fiosh

Auto Mechanic and Deer Hunter would both be practical books in my opinion.

[Smalcald]

Clinical depression is a disease of the brain, and it can be treated and should be treated. It is not caused by someone just feeling down, or being negative or having despair, it is much deeper than those things it is physiological and hereditary.

So I think we need to be careful in how we speak of it. No, despair is not something that a Christian should partake in; it shows a lack of hope, a lack of faith. But clinical depression is not that and I think we need to be careful about identifying it.

I don

[nebula]

As someone who has dealt with clinical depression, you don't have to have drugs to heal your brain.

I agree a person with such needs help, but it can be done without altering your brain chemistry.

Many people, like me, are depressed because of deep wounding in their lives.

To heal the person, you need to dig down to the roots of the depression - and attacking the physical aspects isn't going to do that.

There's more I can say on this, but the bottom line is drugs are to be a last resort or a help to get over the hump if needed, but that will not fix or heal the spiritual and emotional causes of depression, which is where most depression comes from.

[Guest runlikethewind14]

Daughter,

With all of the questions you've asked and all of the advice and responses you've been given, I don't think you are looking for help at all. Are you even thinking about all the advice that others have given you, that you asked for? I think you are looking for someone to tell you it's okay to be selfish and live for yourself and, as long as you say you 'believe in God' that you "deserve" heaven. Let me spell it out in plain terms...

What God owes you/us: Nothing.

What you/we owe God: Everything.

If you truly believe in God, then you will believe and obey His Word. That's the bottom line and it answers all of your questions.

I agree, if you really do believe God...you WILL try to lead a godly life.

Runlikethewind14

[EricH]

As someone who has dealt with clinical depression, you don't have to have drugs to heal your brain.

I agree a person with such needs help, but it can be done without altering your brain chemistry.

Many people, like me, are depressed because of deep wounding in their lives.

To heal the person, you need to dig down to the roots of the depression - and attacking the physical aspects isn't going to do that.

There's more I can say on this, but the bottom line is drugs are to be a last resort or a help to get over the hump if needed, but that will not fix or heal the spiritual and emotional causes of depression, which is where most depression comes from.

I think we need to tak a balanced approach on this one.Nebula is certainly right. In some folks depression is caused by underlying emotional scars that can be healed through letting God bring forgiveness and grace. For others there is an underlying physical condition, that apart from a miraculous healing will need medical intervention to clear up.

[Keith]

Hello again! I read through the rest of these responses and I really want to make some specific clarifications here before people start thinking that I'm compassionless, harsh and judgmental.

1. I am not trying to say that all discussions of God's grace are moot because we should all automatically know what to do. The conversation, at the time I made my response, was talking about people doing things they know full well they shouldn't be doing! I do not appreciate how the innocent things and sincere pains that people are going through are slipped in to cause what I said to be a blanket statement of all of those things.

What I said, and meant, is this: People who are doing things they know are wrong and shouldn't be doing should not try to justify those things by debating how far they can get with those things before God's grace gives out! If we know what we are supposed to be doing - and not to be doing - then we should do, and not do, those things. To debate God's grace in those situations is nothing more than trying to justify those sins and look for approval from others to be able to stay in those sins. We aren't meant to coddle people in their sins. Understanding and compassion, yes, but not coddle.

Of course there are times when people will sincerely ask, not knowing, what they should do or what God says is right in a particular situation. And yes, discussions then are very helpful! But we weren't talking about this at the time.

2. I also want to clarify what I said about depression. In what I said, I assumed it would be understood that I was not talking about clinical depression. I don't know anything about medical conditions and would never presume to make a judgment on anything of a medical nature! So, to anyone who suffers from medically diagnosed, clinical depression... I am offering my most sincere and heartfelt apologies and ask that you forgive me. I forgot how dangerous it can be to assume anything on a message board and that was careless on my part.

What I was talking about when I said that depression is selfish in that it's rooted in the fact that a depressed person is thinking too much about themselves, is based on this definition:

depression

n 1: a mental state characterized by a pessimistic sense of inadequacy and a despondent lack of activity.

People who become depressed/overly sad because they are feeling sorry for themselves. Loneliness is understandably terrible and I've fought it myself. But loneliness is cured by our actions; by taking our thoughts off of ourselves and reaching out to other people. If this doesn't work it's because the person is still thinking about themselves while reaching out to others. "I just want a wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend." "Nobody likes me." "Nobody talks to me at school/work." "I wish I knew what I'm supposed to do with my life." This kind of depression is selfish and complaining. And it isn't going to be cured in one Saturday afternoon of volunteer work. It will take time, working on changing our thinking/attitude, patience and prayer.

Pondering loneliness and our depression, and getting opinions and advice, is perfectly fine! We all need help! But I'm talking about when a person dwells on these things (and their feelings) so much that they get down and depressed about it. It's all rooted in "Me" thinking.

The cure for this kind of depression is to take our minds off of ourselves, and put them on Him and Philippians 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy

[melissa528]

i also dont think it is that 'simple'

name one christian who does His will totally....as far as works....what exactly is that....working in the 'church '

many hypocrits are in church 24/7 ....

what is works...testifying to others as best you know how...telling others regardless of circumstance or situation of the things God has brought you thru and taught you...

some morally correct church goers are the evilest people and blinded as ive ever seen...

some true believers struggle with issues addictions...affairs...divorce...sin...

how do they not ...i see it all the time in the saved as well as the unsaved...

some christians i hear talk this talk like its either here or there sin or saved but what about the christian who sins?

some may believe they walk on water and some indeed may do good for a while but all will most certainly sin...

some people get saved yet not delivered

thousands have told how there deliverence was more of a process than a momentary change

what about them are they not saved....

i dont know ...this to me has always been a confusing point of debate....

because the bible also says we are saved by grace thru faith NOT by works lest any man should boast...

it is a continual struggle with flesh against spirit and any christian who says differently then i will say they either are not truthful with themselves or others or have really never been thru anything in life

i agree we do need to talk about this subject

it is vital....

i guess i think we can be saved and choose to not 'live' it ...and that is because we have not fully yeilded areas of our life to Christ...yielding is a hard thing for us to do...it means we have areas which we may need deliverence in....

not all of us who do 'questionable ' things feel backsliden at all .....we may feel that we are in a struggle and learning and doing the best we can every day...

i have heard His voice so i am reassured i am His sheep

yet i'll be the first to admit i do wrong and have battles with vices and yeilding each moment like i should

if we can live saved i say great....some of us are a work in progress...

some of us havent 'arrived' yet....

some of those who think they have are about to get shaken and realize that they too need His mercy everyday....just like those poor 'sinners' do..

the way i see it is not that we are separated by being "living saved" and being a 'sinner' because i dont even see church people living perfect if the truth be known about what is really going on behind closed doors...

we are separated by being Christian believers and non believers....

just to say i believe is not the same as having a relationship with Christ....talking to Him....praying to Him....even though not perfect yet loving Him....loving what He did. His sacrifice for us...

when we fall on our face before Him and cry Lord have mercy on me a sinner....realizing even the most righteousness of man is as filthy rags to God