Christ's kingdom will never be physically on this earth

[Luther]

11 hours ago, Locust said:

 amusing to hear people talk about the'' two witnesses ''. they dont have a clue who they are or even why there is two of them. its the fact that its said there's two is the important thing.  

" Two" as in a symbolic representation of those faithful to God's Word. I believe the number "two" implies Old and New Testament. 

Zechariah 4:11-14 KJV

Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

( Compare with):

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

[Luther]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Greetings!

Is this an argument that exists out there? Never heard this before right now.

 

Sure. I think. 

This must the conclusion, yes?

I assume neither the kingdom or Christians are of this world. yes?

Interesting.

I'm always a bit suspicious of scholarly works. I'm a stickler for proper definitions. One should not interchange concepts and pretend they are equal, nor omit ideas critical to understanding. 

The problem is; if one is not of Israel, one is not in Christ. There is no 'church' that exists apart and distinct from true Israel, the Israel of God. This idea of lumping together national Israel, the Jews, and Israel, and then creating an ever widening gulf between that false narrative and the entity called 'the Christian church', is in my mind a subtle and deeply ingrained deception.

Where is such a thing even implied in the canon? The religious sector of the nation of Israel desires an earthly kingdom, and they will get it. I see nowhere in scripture implying there is a 1000 year reign to 'get right with Jesus' exclusively for some ultra religious, Middle eastern peoples.

Fact is there will be an earthly kingdom set up in which Christ rules for 1000 years with a select group of His close friends. 

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's pretty clear the ones who faced the beast, and did not succumb to it's pressure, live and reign with Jesus for a millennium. 

Whatever you want to label this group, Jews, Christians, Israel, the elect; it's clear from the testimony of Rev 20 there is a group living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

You question where this takes place.

Rev 19:17-21 places Jesus on earth defeating the beast, the false prophet and their armies which followed them. There isn't a direct statement changing the location. In Rev 20:1-3 the angel comes down from heaven and Satan is bound for 1000 years so he cannot deceive the nations until the end of the millennium. This is on earth, the nations are not in heaven, or anywhere else, but on the earth. 

Rev 20:7-10 is also on earth and is the end of the millennium. A vast army marches across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounds the city. A city called beloved, and also the camp of the saints.

Here we have a city that appears to be 1000 years old, housing the saints, and Satan has mustered a fighting force, marching to assail the city. So, however one is to define the saints or the beloved city, there is a city on earth at the end of a 1000 year period of time, in which saints dwell, and is about to be besieged by the forces of darkness.

None of Rev 20:1-10 takes place anywhere but the ground of the earth. The location Rev 20:11-15 could be disputed but as of right now, with the information I have, that possibly takes place on earth also. 

To the argument you made previously: 

It seems something like the above will take place. I don't think your position is one of two kingdoms of Jesus being set up, it's more like no kingdom will be set up on earth for anyone, and certainly not a 1000 year kingdom where people 'get right with Him'.

However:

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech 14

Here there is kingdom of the Lord on earth, the nations existing and ruled over with rules and consequences. Do you think there is planting and harvest and rain in heaven? Egypt isn't in heaven, it's on earth. Time doesn't exist in heaven, but here we have years, which implies a need to count using basic units, like days. 

From all that, there is plenty of evidence of a lasting, earthly kingdom over which Jesus and His people rule.

I would like to understand which position you hold:

"There is never going to be an earthly kingdom over which Christ rules."

"There isn't going to be a kingdom of Christians on earth, or heaven, and one where the Jews pay penance."

"There isn't an earthy kingdom or a heavenly one where anyone lives and reigns with Christ."

Or something else?

You said: "Is this an argument that exists out there? Never heard this before right now."

I say two kingdoms in the context of God's salvation plan. While it's understood that all people from all nations need to repent as individuals before God and believe in the Lord Jesus, there is like this special exception for the " nation" of people called " jews".

Through years of propaganda and indoctrination many people believe that there will be an additional period of time or " second chance"  AFTER Christ returns specifically for the jewish people as a WHOLE NATION to see the errors of their ways and finally turn to Christ. 

So I say " kingdom" because they are treated completely different than all the other people in the world that need salvation, as if they are their own kingdom that God will save even after the day of salvation has ended. 

You do know the verse, right?

2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV

(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

"NOW" is the day, not AFTER judgment day. We have had "all the time in this world" to get right with God, " jews" included. There is no respect of persons with God. The New Covenant applies to all of us. 

[Luther]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Greetings!

Is this an argument that exists out there? Never heard this before right now.

 

Sure. I think. 

This must the conclusion, yes?

I assume neither the kingdom or Christians are of this world. yes?

Interesting.

I'm always a bit suspicious of scholarly works. I'm a stickler for proper definitions. One should not interchange concepts and pretend they are equal, nor omit ideas critical to understanding. 

The problem is; if one is not of Israel, one is not in Christ. There is no 'church' that exists apart and distinct from true Israel, the Israel of God. This idea of lumping together national Israel, the Jews, and Israel, and then creating an ever widening gulf between that false narrative and the entity called 'the Christian church', is in my mind a subtle and deeply ingrained deception.

Where is such a thing even implied in the canon? The religious sector of the nation of Israel desires an earthly kingdom, and they will get it. I see nowhere in scripture implying there is a 1000 year reign to 'get right with Jesus' exclusively for some ultra religious, Middle eastern peoples.

Fact is there will be an earthly kingdom set up in which Christ rules for 1000 years with a select group of His close friends. 

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's pretty clear the ones who faced the beast, and did not succumb to it's pressure, live and reign with Jesus for a millennium. 

Whatever you want to label this group, Jews, Christians, Israel, the elect; it's clear from the testimony of Rev 20 there is a group living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

You question where this takes place.

Rev 19:17-21 places Jesus on earth defeating the beast, the false prophet and their armies which followed them. There isn't a direct statement changing the location. In Rev 20:1-3 the angel comes down from heaven and Satan is bound for 1000 years so he cannot deceive the nations until the end of the millennium. This is on earth, the nations are not in heaven, or anywhere else, but on the earth. 

Rev 20:7-10 is also on earth and is the end of the millennium. A vast army marches across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounds the city. A city called beloved, and also the camp of the saints.

Here we have a city that appears to be 1000 years old, housing the saints, and Satan has mustered a fighting force, marching to assail the city. So, however one is to define the saints or the beloved city, there is a city on earth at the end of a 1000 year period of time, in which saints dwell, and is about to be besieged by the forces of darkness.

None of Rev 20:1-10 takes place anywhere but the ground of the earth. The location Rev 20:11-15 could be disputed but as of right now, with the information I have, that possibly takes place on earth also. 

To the argument you made previously: 

It seems something like the above will take place. I don't think your position is one of two kingdoms of Jesus being set up, it's more like no kingdom will be set up on earth for anyone, and certainly not a 1000 year kingdom where people 'get right with Him'.

However:

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech 14

Here there is kingdom of the Lord on earth, the nations existing and ruled over with rules and consequences. Do you think there is planting and harvest and rain in heaven? Egypt isn't in heaven, it's on earth. Time doesn't exist in heaven, but here we have years, which implies a need to count using basic units, like days. 

From all that, there is plenty of evidence of a lasting, earthly kingdom over which Jesus and His people rule.

I would like to understand which position you hold:

"There is never going to be an earthly kingdom over which Christ rules."

"There isn't going to be a kingdom of Christians on earth, or heaven, and one where the Jews pay penance."

"There isn't an earthy kingdom or a heavenly one where anyone lives and reigns with Christ."

Or something else?

You said: " Fact is there will be an earthly kingdom set up in which Christ rules for 1000 years with a select group of His close friends. "

No. This is a false teaching designed to lead a great number of Christians into supporting the political/ religious end time goals of another group.

( As I am aware that my posts are being monitored, it would be helpful for me to know how much information I am permitted on this forum to go into detail with, as to who the group is and what their religion is, all of which is factual but not known to the general public. My goal is not to be deemed "offensive" or  "controversial " but to provide information that is extremely relevant to the doctrinal positions that are being discussed here, to avoid what I believe to be a continual lopsided narrative in light of everything going on around us.) 

I believe everyone would agree that we should all stand boldly for the truth in God's Word. And sometimes, in light of the world we live in, isn't always going to fit the narrative we've been taught. 

[DeighAnn]

 

13 hours ago, Locust said:

i see you are trying to put Jesus on earth . apparently in one spot to rule over the entire earth.  from heaven he see's the entire earth with 144000 helping him  

Don't see how we can't...even in just a little study as to the WORD 'throne' makes it clear, that is, if we believe what is written as it is simply written.  



"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:" Luke 1:32 KJV


"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" Acts 2:30 KJV



"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;" Hebrews 8:1 KJV



"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2 KJV



"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 KJV


"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Revelation 4:2 KJV


"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals." Revelation 5:1 KJV


"And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." Revelation 5:6 KJV


"And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." Revelation 5:7 KJV


"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13 KJV 


"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" Revelation 6:16 KJV



"And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." Revelation 7:10 KJV


"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:17 KJV


"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation 12:5 KJV


then, in the NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." Revelation 22:1 KJV

 

[DeighAnn]

15 hours ago, Luther said:

The kingdom of God is made up of Christians. Those who have become born of the Spirit of God. No one else. 

Matt 27

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not one of those were raised up from the dead at that time, ever fell under the name 'Christian' before they went into the grave.  

ALL of them would fall under the OLD COVENANT and/or under the penalty of sin addressed in

John 11

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


and in the OLD TEST PROPHECIES that had to be fulfilled then and couldn't be postponed untill later because
 

17And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

(Having spoken to the OLD COVENANT, He went on with LIFE under the NEW about to be put forth for the 'Christians'

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?)

(and why the 'dead in Christ' are THE DEAD in the place of the dead, waiting be resurrected AT HIS RETURN

and

THEY ARE NOT those who had been made alive, who had already passed from death to life and who instead FOLLOWED HIM to be where He is, to the place He WENT to prepare for us,...where He sits at the right hand of Gods THRONE in heaven (till New Heaven and Earth) and the judgment seat of Christ so that we can return in His army and sit upon the thrones ON EARTH when He returns)


6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


So, the kingdom of God consists of ALL NATIONS

Rev 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 

 

Edited April 6 by DeighAnn

[Luther]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Greetings!

Is this an argument that exists out there? Never heard this before right now.

 

Sure. I think. 

This must the conclusion, yes?

I assume neither the kingdom or Christians are of this world. yes?

Interesting.

I'm always a bit suspicious of scholarly works. I'm a stickler for proper definitions. One should not interchange concepts and pretend they are equal, nor omit ideas critical to understanding. 

The problem is; if one is not of Israel, one is not in Christ. There is no 'church' that exists apart and distinct from true Israel, the Israel of God. This idea of lumping together national Israel, the Jews, and Israel, and then creating an ever widening gulf between that false narrative and the entity called 'the Christian church', is in my mind a subtle and deeply ingrained deception.

Where is such a thing even implied in the canon? The religious sector of the nation of Israel desires an earthly kingdom, and they will get it. I see nowhere in scripture implying there is a 1000 year reign to 'get right with Jesus' exclusively for some ultra religious, Middle eastern peoples.

Fact is there will be an earthly kingdom set up in which Christ rules for 1000 years with a select group of His close friends. 

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

It's pretty clear the ones who faced the beast, and did not succumb to it's pressure, live and reign with Jesus for a millennium. 

Whatever you want to label this group, Jews, Christians, Israel, the elect; it's clear from the testimony of Rev 20 there is a group living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

You question where this takes place.

Rev 19:17-21 places Jesus on earth defeating the beast, the false prophet and their armies which followed them. There isn't a direct statement changing the location. In Rev 20:1-3 the angel comes down from heaven and Satan is bound for 1000 years so he cannot deceive the nations until the end of the millennium. This is on earth, the nations are not in heaven, or anywhere else, but on the earth. 

Rev 20:7-10 is also on earth and is the end of the millennium. A vast army marches across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounds the city. A city called beloved, and also the camp of the saints.

Here we have a city that appears to be 1000 years old, housing the saints, and Satan has mustered a fighting force, marching to assail the city. So, however one is to define the saints or the beloved city, there is a city on earth at the end of a 1000 year period of time, in which saints dwell, and is about to be besieged by the forces of darkness.

None of Rev 20:1-10 takes place anywhere but the ground of the earth. The location Rev 20:11-15 could be disputed but as of right now, with the information I have, that possibly takes place on earth also. 

To the argument you made previously: 

It seems something like the above will take place. I don't think your position is one of two kingdoms of Jesus being set up, it's more like no kingdom will be set up on earth for anyone, and certainly not a 1000 year kingdom where people 'get right with Him'.

However:

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles." Zech 14

Here there is kingdom of the Lord on earth, the nations existing and ruled over with rules and consequences. Do you think there is planting and harvest and rain in heaven? Egypt isn't in heaven, it's on earth. Time doesn't exist in heaven, but here we have years, which implies a need to count using basic units, like days. 

From all that, there is plenty of evidence of a lasting, earthly kingdom over which Jesus and His people rule.

I would like to understand which position you hold:

"There is never going to be an earthly kingdom over which Christ rules."

"There isn't going to be a kingdom of Christians on earth, or heaven, and one where the Jews pay penance."

"There isn't an earthy kingdom or a heavenly one where anyone lives and reigns with Christ."

Or something else?

You said: " From all that, there is plenty of evidence of a lasting, earthly kingdom over which Jesus and His people rule."

Are you telling me that " all that" is literally going to take place on the earth? That all the literal  families of the earth that don't make a literal  yearly trip to Jerusalem to literally celebrate the feast of Tabernacles, that wherever they go it will never literally rain on them? Or is it when they just are at their home? Do you really believe this ( or any other OT, Revelation story, for that matter) is really going to take place? Literally?

[Luther]

20 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Matt 27

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Not one of those were raised up from the dead ever fell under the name 'Christian' before they went into the grave.  

ALL of them would fall under the OLD COVENANT and under the penalty of sin and  in John 11

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


The OLD TEST




26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 


6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)






 

 

You said:

"Not one of those were raised up from the dead ever fell under the name 'Christian' before they went into the grave. "

 

I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you saying that anyone who had a relationship with God in the OT didn't have a relationship with Christ? And that He was not the propitiation for their sins? 

[Locust]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 KJV

 ''set down with my Father in his throne''. which by the way is in heaven

[Locust]

The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.37:29

[DeighAnn]

43 minutes ago, Locust said:

 ''set down with my Father in his throne''. which by the way is in heaven

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:" Luke 1:32 KJV

which by the way, is on the earth

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 KJV



Acts 1:11  who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking into heaven?  THIS JESUS, having been taken up from you into heaven, thus will come in that manner you beheld Him going into heaven

 

1{A Psalm of David.} The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

 

Daniel 2
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

36For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

37David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.