What were the Jewish leaders, high priests, and elders envious of?

[Ogner]

  

On 3/25/2025 at 6:27 PM, Indentured Servant said:

If they didn't envy what he had, why want it so bad that it led to murder?

They killed him for the purpose of claiming the inheritance for themselves.

Greed, envy, hatred, killing out of spite are all involved in this. 

 

A word was chosen to label the emotion in question. The Greek word that appears in scripture has a layered meaning, and can be, and most often is, translated as 'envy.'

I submitted that the word has a fuller meaning that was likely intended when using a word that is normally understood as 'envy.'

I do see that word as having a richer meaning than just 'envy,' but since it cannot be encapsulated in a single English word, so translators selected the most common meaning of the word and based the translation on that more frequently used meaning.

Is 'envy' the "best" translation? I don't think so, but it doesn't academically  violate a word-for-word translation.

On the other hand, a translation based on a fuller understanding of that word would likely result in the translator being accused of making a "personal translation."

 

I've experienced this firsthand...

I had posted a translation of a verse that included the Greek word for "in," but it was translated as "for."

I displayed that verse with the actual meaning of that word, "in."

A very sensitive, former JW accused me of attempting to deceive people with a personal translation and compared me to her arch nemesis, the Watchtower.

That was 9 months ago, and my sister has completely shut me out of her life since then. 

(Perhaps she was envious of my knowledge of Greek language, leading her to spite me enough to get rid of me. 😳)

While I do hold accurate translation in high regard, I decided to learn the language enough to know what the English words mean in the original language. 

 

 

Indentured Servant, you say translators picked "envy" for "φθόνος," fearing accusations of "personal translation," and share your story about your sister. But a translator can’t be guided by fear of upsetting someone—imagine what the Bible would look like if we tailored it to avoid offending family or dodging blame? Google Translate would do a better job with Greek than a translator swayed by personal biases or worries about criticism. 

Now, your question: "If they didn’t envy what He had, why want it so bad they murdered Him?" 

Here’s a story from Capablanca to illustrate:

“Once at a tournament in Germany, a man approached me and said, ‘I’ve solved chess!’ I stepped back—maybe he was as dangerous as he was mad. But he bet me 50 marks he could prove it in his hotel room. Fifty marks is fifty marks, so we went. We sat at the board, and he said white mates in 12 moves no matter what. I played black carefully, but on the 12th move, white mated me. I tried a different opening—same result, mate in 12. I ran to the lobby, grabbed Emanuel Lasker, and explained. He gave me an odd look but came along; Alekhine joined us too. Lasker played black, extra cautious—mate in 12 again. Alekhine failed too. It was humiliating! We’d devoted our lives to chess, and now someone says it’s solved!”
A friend interrupted: “Wait, I’ve never heard this. What happened next?”
Capablanca replied: “What else? We killed him, of course!”  

The parallel with Jesus: Sound familiar? Someone shows up saying professional middlemen are no longer needed. What’s left for respectable, established folks whose business He’s just upended? Only one thing: go to Pilate on behalf of their union.

P.S. For those unfamiliar: José Raúl Capablanca was a Cuban chess genius, World Champion from 1921 to 1927, nicknamed "The Human Chess Machine" for his near-perfect play. Alexander Alekhine, a Russian-French grandmaster, took the title from him in 1927 in a legendary upset, known for his brilliant and aggressive style.

Edited March 27 by Ogner

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, Ogner said:

Great use of Scriptural comparison—envy ("envy") can indeed escalate to war and evil (Jas. 3:16, 4:2, Gal. 5:21). You’re spot on that envy often fuels conflict, blending with greed and hatred. But with the chief priests and Jesus (Matt. 27:18, Mark 15:10), "φθόνος" doesn’t seem like envy—they already controlled the people (the vineyard), and Jesus had nothing to covet: the crowd rejected Him (Luke 23:21), the disciples fled (Matt. 26:56). Their drive was hatred, or rather "animosity"—unwarranted hostility. Scripture backs this up: "They hated Me without a cause" (John 15:25). 

Grammatically, that Pilate made deliberate reference to Jesus being called Christ is contingent on his knowing this was a cause of envy among the chief priests. 

Mat 27:17-18  Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said to them, Whom do you desire that I release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?  (18)  For he knew they had delivered Him because of envy.

Mat 27:22  Pilate said to them, What then shall I do with Jesus, who is called Christ? They all said to him, Let Him be crucified.

[Indentured Servant]

13 hours ago, Ogner said:

Your pondering is intriguing: you see envy starting with the love of money (1 Tim. 6:10), escalating through hatred to murder. Psychologically, envy alone doesn’t justify killing, but hatred does bridge greed to murder—a compelling idea, especially with Jesus’s warning against hate (Matt. 5:21-22). But with Jesus and the chief priests (Matt. 27:18, Mark 15:10), "φθόνος" isn’t about money or envying wealth—the vineyard (the people) was already theirs, and they killed not for greed but to hold onto power. How do you think this fits your "envy—hatred—murder" chain?

The English word for money is used in translating at least five different Greek words, depending on which translation is being used.

The etymology of the word used in the verse I quoted literally means "silver." 

While it's easy to assume that means "money," the word was primarily used to describe the covering of columns of important buildings, places that represent nobility in that culture. 

Greed is greed, whether for money, power, prestige, or the largest portion of ice cream...

Simplified, the context could allow us to  reasonably understand this as nothing more intriguing than "coveting." 

 

I may be juggling semantics, but I see envy and spite are both depicted in this word translated as "envy."

All said, my choice would be to translate it "spite." (Who knows, it may be best rendered as "envious spite.")

 

[Indentured Servant]

On 3/26/2025 at 9:07 AM, Ogner said:

you say translators picked "envy" for "φθόνος," fearing accusations of "personal translation

Oops, you merged two of my comments as one complete thought...

1. Translators (of accepted versions of Scripture) picked 'envy' because that is the most common translation of the word; and,

2. others, like myself, find it difficult to discuss the fuller meaning of words for fear of being accused of making a personal translation.

 

I mentioned my sister to illustrate how close to home sharing this knowledge can affect an individual who ventures into the fuller meanings and etymology of Greek and Hebrew words. 

It either causes one to be labeled "false teacher," or "deluded by Satan;" especially by the followers of teachers who have their flocks believing that the original texts are corrupt and English is the only true biblical language now.

And yes, there are people who sincerely believe that... (If you are one of them, I mean no offense, I'm only making an observation.)

[Ogner]

19 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

The English word for money is used in translating at least five different Greek words, depending on which translation is being used.

The etymology of the word used in the verse I quoted literally means "silver." 

While it's easy to assume that means "money," the word was primarily used to describe the covering of columns of important buildings, places that represent nobility in that culture. 

Greed is greed, whether for money, power, prestige, or the largest portion of ice cream...

Simplified, the context could allow us to  reasonably understand this as nothing more intriguing than "coveting." 

 

I may be juggling semantics, but I see envy and spite are both depicted in this word translated as "envy."

All said, my choice would be to translate it "spite." (Who knows, it may be best rendered as "envious spite.")

 

When you sent the parable of the wicked tenants, I thought you brought it up to prove that Jesus was killed out of hatred. But then you wrote: "As in the parable, the Jewish leaders demanded crucifixion because of wanting His inheritance." I was surprised. There’s no hint of "envy" in the parable of the tenants. Yet people stubbornly see "envy." And at Pilate’s trial—what envy are we talking about? The disciples scattered back after the "bread from heaven" words (John 6), Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, the crowd shouted "crucify." Where’s the envy here? To what? But people still find it anyway.

All around, it’s just "envy," money, and trade-market relationships. But the Bible is about something else. In a setting where the paradigm of trade-market relationships reigns, you can bring any arguments, and people will still only see trade-market relationships. And this topic is proof of that. Even in such conditions, where there’s a word with double meaning. Where Jesus Himself says: "They hated Me without a cause" (John 15:25), and the crowd wants to stone Him for "You, being a man, make Yourself God" (John 10:33). 

And what to do when it’s not all so obvious?

We read the Synodal translation of the episode with the woman who washed Jesus’ feet and wiped them with her hair (Luke 7:47). Simon, openly breaking basic hospitality rules, not kissing Jesus or washing His feet, tries to drive her out, saying a sinful woman shouldn’t even be near the Rabbi. Jesus stops him: “Therefore, I tell you (Simon): Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much...”

This is the (approved) translation by the church hierarchy. But in the Greek original, it’s the complete opposite!

"οὗ χάριν λέγω σοι, ἀφέωνται αἱ ἁμαρτίαι αὐτῆς αἱ πολλαί, ὅτι ἠγάπησεν πολύ· ᾧ δὲ ὀλίγον ἀφίεται, ὀλίγον ἀγαπᾷ."

“Therefore, I tell you  (Simon): her sins are already forgiven, and we can know this, at least, because she loved.” The new state of her soul shows in this: against the existing hierarchy, she called the Truth Lord—and washed His feet. That’s in life. But in the translation—instead of direct relationships with God—it’s a market order: first righteousness (maybe with money), then rebirth, and—hooray!—salvation. First you give to God, then—for that—God gives to you.

In the Kingdom of Heaven, everything is free. This is the opposite of the trading principle. No more sacrifices, no more bringing money to the temple, no need for high priests. No more hierarchy. Forgiveness is free for all and a gift, without sacrificing goats or bulls, without money-changers in the temple. Forgiveness for all by grace. That’s why the high priests killed Jesus, like in that chess players’ story I told earlier. No envy.

[Indentured Servant]

3 hours ago, Ogner said:

When you sent the parable of the wicked tenants, I thought you brought it up to prove that Jesus was killed out of hatred. But then you wrote: "As in the parable, the Jewish leaders demanded crucifixion because of wanting His inheritance." I was surprised. There’s no hint of "envy" in the parable of the tenants. Yet people stubbornly see "envy." And at Pilate’s trial—what envy are we talking about? The disciples scattered back after the "bread from heaven" words (John 6), Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, the crowd shouted "crucify." Where’s the envy here? To what? But people still find it anyway.

All around, it’s just "envy," money, and trade-market relationships. But the Bible is about something else. In a setting where the paradigm of trade-market relationships reigns, you can bring any arguments, and people will still only see trade-market relationships. And this topic is proof of that. Even in such conditions, where there’s a word with double meaning. Where Jesus Himself says: "They hated Me without a cause" (John 15:25), and the crowd wants to stone Him for "You, being a man, make Yourself God" (John 10:33). 

And what to do when it’s not all so obvious?

We read the Synodal translation of the episode with the woman who washed Jesus’ feet and wiped them with her hair (Luke 7:47). Simon, openly breaking basic hospitality rules, not kissing Jesus or washing His feet, tries to drive her out, saying a sinful woman shouldn’t even be near the Rabbi. Jesus stops him: “Therefore, I tell you (Simon): Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much...”

This is the (approved) translation by the church hierarchy. But in the Greek original, it’s the complete opposite!

"οὗ χάριν λέγω σοι, ἀφέωνται αἱ ἁμαρτίαι αὐτῆς αἱ πολλαί, ὅτι ἠγάπησεν πολύ· ᾧ δὲ ὀλίγον ἀφίεται, ὀλίγον ἀγαπᾷ."

“Therefore, I tell you  (Simon): her sins are already forgiven, and we can know this, at least, because she loved.” The new state of her soul shows in this: against the existing hierarchy, she called the Truth Lord—and washed His feet. That’s in life. But in the translation—instead of direct relationships with God—it’s a market order: first righteousness (maybe with money), then rebirth, and—hooray!—salvation. First you give to God, then—for that—God gives to you.

In the Kingdom of Heaven, everything is free. This is the opposite of the trading principle. No more sacrifices, no more bringing money to the temple, no need for high priests. No more hierarchy. Forgiveness is free for all and a gift, without sacrificing goats or bulls, without money-changers in the temple. Forgiveness for all by grace. That’s why the high priests killed Jesus, like in that chess players’ story I told earlier. No envy.

Honest inquiry:

Are you just trying to find error in my explanation?

Your approach seems to be more concerned with my thoughts rather than scriptural truth.

If you disagree, please let me know your perspective... I won't be led into an a debate of things I've said only merely because you don't agree.

You obviously disagree with me, I sincerely do not understand why. I openly said that I would not personally choose "envy" as the best translation.

What is triggering your desire to debate me on this? I do not debate Scripture! If you want to debate me, find another hobby, or be honest and reveal the intent of your challenge.

I only deal with honest people... If you're baiting me, I have no interest in wasting my time with you.

I thank you for your consideration........

 

[Michael37]

Polemicists often thrive on intellectual controversy and debate, using persuasive, sometimes provocative, rhetoric to defend their opinions or critique opposing ones, but since we are exhorted to edify one another in love, there must be balance, and any member striving to persuade everyone to agree with their premise with no respite is headed for correction.