My observations, forgive my honesty...

[Indentured Servant]

4 hours ago, FriendofJonathan said:

Only that you are doing what other "well-meaning teachers and preachers" do.

All I was doing was commenting on my own experiences of hearing or reading, preachers making up odd interpretations of prophetic Scripture; and, that it seems to have become common on Christian social forums, and even in conversation, radio, etc. 

My observation is that people have become more dependent on learning the wrong interpretations of prophecy that they refuse to even read the scripture that provides the fuller context to what they may have misinterpreted.

As well, I believe that people should take God at His Word and ask Him to help them with the proper interpretation of parables and prophetic imagery. 

But, I suppose there are who see me as odd because I don't link biblical prophecy to every current headline and conspiracy: nuclear bombs, the "chip," the LBGTQ movement, UFOs, politics,  etc.

What my only goal was to attempt to point people back to learning to interpret prophecy via God's Word and not the imagination of preachers (who should never attempt to interpret prophetic Scripture).

But whenever I ever mention that scripture teaches one how to interpret biblical symbology, visions, etc., I get called a heretic, false teacher, or I get compared to notorious founders of cults... 

Just by some of the responses I gotten, I'm beginning to think of all that as the new face of Christianity... "Always believe what a preacher says, spread their personal prophetic interpretations, argue if anyone tries to show you scripture."

Ha, I even had someone tell me that the Bible is about the plight and the militant return of (a specific race) and when I attempted to offer Scripture to help them understand they'd been taught incorrectly, I had to endure angry racial insults and had my life threatened, also.

I guess I complained to the wrong group... 

Forgive me, all. 

Thank you for enduring my 'scriptural purity.'

[timf]

There are many different ways people approach prophecy. Some allegoricze everything, while others may read themselves into every prophecy. Some take a more analytical approach like trying to guess how many beans are in a jar.

Some may plant an emotional "flag" in a particular interpretation. The closer one gets to truth, the more clear things become. However, one should allow that some are less further along in their search for truth.

Rom 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[Michael37]

On 3/25/2025 at 11:01 AM, Indentured Servant said:

All I was doing was commenting on my own experiences of hearing or reading, preachers making up odd interpretations of prophetic Scripture; and, that it seems to have become common on Christian social forums, and even in conversation, radio, etc. 

I agree. 

This is a many facetted topic which has long been the subject of many protests, moves, books, blogs, videos, podcasts and debates.

Not one ekklesia I have been involved with has been without issues. Some have been seriously deviant.

Before Martin Luther, several key figures laid the groundwork for the Reformation by challenging Church practices and advocating for reform. Here are some notable individuals:

1. John Wycliffe (1320–1384): Known as the "Morning Star of the Reformation," Wycliffe criticized the Church's wealth and corruption. He emphasized the authority of Scripture over the Pope and translated the Bible into English, making it accessible to the common people.

2. Jan Hus (1369–1415): A Czech reformer influenced by Wycliffe, Hus called for moral integrity among clergy and opposed indulgences. His teachings led to the Hussite movement, and he was martyred for his beliefs.

3. Peter Waldo (1140–1218): Founder of the Waldensians, Waldo advocated for poverty, simplicity, and reliance on Scripture. His followers faced persecution for their beliefs.

4. Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498): An Italian preacher who condemned corruption in the Church and society. His fiery sermons and calls for reform made him a controversial figure.

[Indentured Servant]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I agree. 

This is a many facetted topic which has long been the subject of many protests, moves, books, blogs, videos, podcasts and debates.

Not one ekklesia I have been involved with has been without issues. Some have been seriously deviant.

Before Martin Luther, several key figures laid the groundwork for the Reformation by challenging Church practices and advocating for reform. Here are some notable individuals:

1. John Wycliffe (1320–1384): Known as the "Morning Star of the Reformation," Wycliffe criticized the Church's wealth and corruption. He emphasized the authority of Scripture over the Pope and translated the Bible into English, making it accessible to the common people.

2. Jan Hus (1369–1415): A Czech reformer influenced by Wycliffe, Hus called for moral integrity among clergy and opposed indulgences. His teachings led to the Hussite movement, and he was martyred for his beliefs.

3. Peter Waldo (1140–1218): Founder of the Waldensians, Waldo advocated for poverty, simplicity, and reliance on Scripture. His followers faced persecution for their beliefs.

4. Girolamo Savonarola (1452–1498): An Italian preacher who condemned corruption in the Church and society. His fiery sermons and calls for reform made him a controversial figure.

(sometimes I feel like I'm going to be the next on that list, haha.)

[Indentured Servant]

4 hours ago, timf said:

The closer one gets to truth, the more clear things become. However, one should allow that some are less further along in their search for truth.

I thank you for your response. 

You've touched on something interesting... 

I suppose that when one does see truth more clearly, it may make them either more sensitive to, or more aware of, things that are not truth.

So, it may not be an increase in "wrong things," and of unscriptural doctrines that someone may be encountering-  all of that has existed for centuries. Such a person may simply have a heightened awareness of how saturated the Christian narrative is with untruths. 

However, my experience (and disappointment) is primarily with those who pose as preachers and teachers of prophecy.

One concern I have with these "experts" is their refusal to acknowledge the very Scripture passages that explain their out-of-context verse, (or word).

Another concern is the using of prophetic verses as a segue to current events and popular culture.

But, the thing that really concerns me is when these "expert teachers" choose to make up things that are obviously pure whack-a-doodle nonsense.

I really have no difficulty with people who are at a less mature level than others. They're typically more willing to read Scripture to understand it better.

[timf]

However, my experience (and disappointment) is primarily with those who pose as preachers and teachers of prophecy.

Act_18:26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Sadly one effect of seminary exposure is often the deadening of youthful inquiry. Similar to collegiate education, one often becomes hardened in the defense of what one has been told rather than growing in wisdom and truth. It is rare that one can recover from such damage to regain the enthusiasm and openness to learning.

[Indentured Servant]

On 3/27/2025 at 5:37 AM, timf said:

Sadly one effect of seminary exposure is often the deadening of youthful inquiry. Similar to collegiate education, one often becomes hardened in the defense of what one has been told rather than growing in wisdom and truth.

Ah, I fully understand this... I was visiting old friends at a church, and in the Sunday school class, led by the associate pastor, I answered a question that clearly upset him... My answer included a reference to the ancient form of Hebrew that could be read differently, revealing deeper truths. 

I applied a detailed example to a specific verse, and he freaked out, stating he has a master's degree in Hebrew and was never taught that. 

He didn't disregard my answer, he just felt like he knew it all, and seemed very defensive that a random person might know something he didn't.

I kept my mouth shut for the rest of the time there........

[tatwo]

On 3/23/2025 at 8:07 PM, Indentured Servant said:

Why, in claiming to know Scripture, do Christians use [man-made] doctrinal interpretations instead of  God's Word?

Is there no one that believes what Scripture actually says?

Greetings @Indentured Servant

I think you guys have had a decent conversation, you and @timf. It would seem to me that you “ID” and I have similar feelings on what you call...perhaps rhetorically call “Scriptural Purity.” Maybe I can shed a ray of light on the matter for you...but first a short story.

Roughly 20 years ago I was in Springfield Mo. to help a brother and sister through a nasty divorce. I was told that Springfield was the “Buckle of the Bible Belt.” Lots of churches, several Christian colleges and just in general a large group of Christians living in that area...it really was a fantastic trip even though I could do nothing to help my beloved brother and sister.

I am not one who can “see” in Scripture the “secret second coming of the Lord” known as the “pre-trib rapture”...for those who do...I say carry on...time will reveal the answer. So I go into the biggest Christian book store in Springfield and this after going to several others first.

In all the book stores I would tell one of the attendants that I was looking for a book written about what I will call “post tribulation rapture.” In every case the attendants would search and search with no success on such a book. It was a little different in the last store...the biggest one. As I walked up to the first attendant I encountered in that store and inquired about such a book...here is what he said.

“Oh no Sir...I don’t have to look for a book about post tribulation rapture...because that book would never sell around here...so we won’t carry it.” He proceeded to lead me to a surprisingly large section on the “pre-trib rapture.” Well I was not surprised...of course...the picture is clear...people won’t buy a book or go to a church for example...unless it generally “says” what they want to hear.

Interestingly, I had a very verbose encounter with a demon possessed man in that store that day. This “small man” was screeching and yelling at me something about me being a “son of God”...he caused a major commotion in that store. My brother came over to see what was happening as this guy literally ran around the store screaming things about me.

When my brother called my name from the opposite end of the row...I turned to look at him and there was a Catholic Nun who literally dropped to her knees right in front of me at my feet and began praying...my brother saw all of this.

I urged the Nun to stop and helped her up and apologized for her discomfort...she simply blessed me, hugged me and walked away. I was fine...though this scenario was a first in my life...I had encountered many demons prior to that as a Chaplin in three prison camps in Southern California for 7 years.

All of that to say...I feel your distain for preacher and teachers such as you list that you don’t feel are adequate or qualified to do what they are doing. I have seen demons in the pulpit...confronted them as necessary...and helped a number of brothers and sisters in deliverance of their own demons.

The serpent’s first trick was to twist the words that God had given Adam and by extension Eve...you know the story...the dragon is the master at twisting the words of God. It and its subordinates are very influential in the “church” and have been for the last 1700 years. This is why you have encountered those things that you post.

This post was a bit longer than I intended...normal...I plan to write more in regards to your op.

Tatwo...:)

[Indentured Servant]

47 minutes ago, tatwo said:

people won’t buy a book or go to a church for example...unless it generally “says” what they want to hear

I have, of course, had people deny this and strongly support the pulpit for its boldness to "speak the Truth." But when it comes down to the brass tacks of truth and belief, people are admittedly more drawn to the style of preaching than Scriptural truth.

I was invited to be the "alternate" for a pastor, in a church that I was not even a member. I had to tell tell him, "I don't preach, I only present God's Word and help the congregation to understand."

When asked what that means, I explain that I don't use scripture to work people into a frenzy about things happening in this world. I speak God's Word as it is written, and open the floor to questions, insights, and whatever heartstrings that may have gotten strummed by the Spirit.

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

I have seen demons in the pulpit...confronted them as necessary...

I, as well. Got threatened by the pastor that he would expose me as being "deluded by satan" if I spoke of it to anyone. 

They know who is of Christ, and will likely make attempts to provoke or challenge that person. 

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

..I had encountered many demons prior to that as a Chaplin in three prison camps in Southern California for 7 years.

I'm a strong empath, and can't walk into certain places that I know harbor multiple unclean spirits. 

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

This post was a bit longer than I intended

I didn't mind. I typically can't read long posts, but I felt very motivated to read what you'd written.

'preciate your willingness to share some sensitive experiences.

[tatwo]

Everything I post here is easily verifiable by a general search of the subject matter.

The “church” merged with the “state” during the rule of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great in the early 4th century...thereby officially and successfully institutionalizing “Christianity.” Many Christians are aware of this but have not understood the prophetic significance of this bold political and demonic move.

This is the nexus of “church and state”...which births forth the “institutional church” that is heavily influenced and maybe controlled by the state...and is not the temple of God...the Body of Christ at all...nor could it ever be. If one has some prophetic faith and the help of revelation from the Holy Spirit...one can see the emergence of "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" in this event...seriously.

It doesn’t end there...though the Roman Empire began to fall in the late second century many historians say it was technically 476 AD when a “barbarian general named Odoacer” forced Romulus Augustus, to abdicate the throne. So the harlot church was put “on ice” if you will...yet she had a pulse.

Then in late 800 AD Pope Leo III coroneted Charlemagne...as what many historians call the “First Holy Roman Emperor” in honor of Charlemagne’s defense and protection of Rome. So here you have a conquering military general as the highest ranking “official” in the church. It’s all a fascinating story that I am seriously abbreviating here. So again we see the “Babylonian harlot” being revived.

What I am showing here is that when the Harlot “committed her acts of immorality” it was with the kings of the earth [Constantine and Charlemagne in my example] as we see historically recorded throughout the first and second millennium AD. The harlot then...is the “false church”...as I stated earlier...brought forth by the evil religious Babylonian spirit portraying itself as the Body of Christ...the pure church.

So yes...initially...I am suggesting that the early Roman Church is the “false church” or as the scripture calls her...the “Mother of Harlots.” She is referenced as a “mother” because she has produced some “offspring”...this is important...more on that in a bit.

I am defining the false church, harlot church, Babylon the great, as the nexus of the powerful ancient Babylonian spirit...dressed up as the Bride of Christ...who brings a compliant citizenry...to the kings of the earth in exchange for “exorbitant wealth and seat at the political and military table.” She can garner the support of a given states military...and has...I’ll give an example shortly.

In this she becomes a powerful spiritual, military and political force...as well as one of the wealthiest entities on the earth. So now we may “begin” to understand her massive influence throughout the centuries.

Now for a blatantly obvious modern day example of the “church state nexus” I will submit Russia. Russia has an estimated population of 150 million people...and the Russian Orthodox “church” in Russia is reported to have100 million members.

Patriarch Kirill is a Russian Orthodox bishop and he is the human head of the “Russian Orthodox Church.” Now...Bishop Kirill is totally on board with President Vladimir Putin in so many ways...I think you can see where I am going here. In fact I will include a link to an article below...stating that Patriarch Kirill addresses the Russian military directly himself.

This is an example of the “false Babylonian church” bringing a willing and compliant constituency to the political table in support for Russia’s war with Ukraine. They are 100,000,000 million members strong out of a population of 150,000,000 people in Russia...that...is a huge support for President Putin.

Without going too deep here...and building upon what I have already “said”...the Russian Orthodox Church is a split from the Roman Catholic Church in and event known as “The Great Schism of 1054.” This would I would contend is merely one example for consideration...of “one” of Babylon the Greats...offspring.

Moving forward...a couple of main identifiers of the offspring of the “Mother of Harlots” will be her seat at the political table in the courts of the kings of nations...while offering the kings of the nation’s...a “compliant people” [congregation or members] for the kings rule and support...coupled with her immense accumulation of wealth and influence...and all of this is carried out in an “institutional form” with its people knowingly or unknowingly required to support the kings of the earth.

The institution with its corporate hierarchy is merely a spiritual emulation of the true Body of Christ which...is based in a “Father-Son” relationship. The institutional church has the state as is power verses the Holy Spirit...and this is one of the primary answers behind your question...”Why are so many drawn to redefining Scripture?”

I’ll stop here...I think my point is clear...hope it helps. I may do a bit on the Body of Christ as the “Father & Son” relationship...which is the model set forth in the book of Acts by the founding apostles.

Tatwo...:)

https://orthodoxtimes.com/patriarch-kirill-and-putin-exchange-congratulations-russia-cannot-be-defeated-by-external-forces/