Why was the rich man in torment?

[Starise]

Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. Why? This was a story from Jesus, not just anyone. Why did Jesus pursue these kinds of discussions? I believe it’s apparent there is a lot at stake. 
I once believed this to be some kind of parable loaded with metaphors, but really it aligns with those biblical holding places. It has to be a very real presentation of events.

Everyone will have had opportunity to either accept or reject. No stragglers. The story probably represents a cross section of people even though literal. My Bible reading this morning in Psalms discusses the very temporary nature of the wealthy. They are there one minute and after fading they are gone. The poor should be thankful for their low position. Why? If it results in seeking God it’s a blessing with eternal implications. God makes sure the poor have enough if they are His. If the rich foolishly depend on fleeting resources that can’t help them, it’s really a curse. They need to have the right perspective.

 

 

[AnOrangeCat]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

Everyone will have had opportunity to either accept or reject. No stragglers. The story probably represents a cross section of people even though literal. My Bible reading this morning in Psalms discusses the very temporary nature of the wealthy. They are there one minute and after fading they are gone. The poor should be thankful for their low position. Why? If it results in seeking God it’s a blessing with eternal implications. God makes sure the poor have enough if they are His. If the rich foolishly depend on fleeting resources that can’t help them, it’s really a curse. They need to have the right perspective.

Makes me think of the rich young ruler that wanted to follow Jesus but wasn't keen on giving what he had away. James similarly speaks of the temporary nature of wealth. As another point of blessing Jesus concluded a parable with the thought that to whom much is given much would be required. Wealth certainly isn't the only thing God might bless us with, but it's certainly one that fits heavily into the amount and types of hardships we experience.

[Starise]

On 6/4/2025 at 4:32 PM, AnOrangeCat said:

Makes me think of the rich young ruler that wanted to follow Jesus but wasn't keen on giving what he had away. James similarly speaks of the temporary nature of wealth. As another point of blessing Jesus concluded a parable with the thought that to whom much is given much would be required. Wealth certainly isn't the only thing God might bless us with, but it's certainly one that fits heavily into the amount and types of hardships we experience.

I am pretty convinced the Lord wasn't asking the rich man to give up everything, but to be willing to give up everything. Since God wants us to enjoy the fruits of our labors, I don't believe He wanted him to become impoverished while making those he helped rich. 

Being willing means it might happen, but then I go back to Abraham being asked to sacrifice Issac. Seems to me God wants a willing heart and the wealth was of less importance. Job felt the full brunt of what can happen, but then was restored, I guess I don't see God wanting to inflict harm or loss in any way. He wants to restore and bless. The rich young ruler didn't get that.

The concept of giving to get is more than a little shallow, but I do think those who give also get and those who withhold have less.

I tend to be sort of oblivious to the money stuff until I have to deal with it. Maybe if I valued it more I would be more concerned. People who are overly concerned about money tend to think about money a lot and even be consumed by it. Jesus told us that even the sparrows and flowers have all they need. If I'm obsessing over thinking how I will try and get from point A to point B without praying over it I would be at fault. My God owns the cattle on 1000 hills, and since most of us are not shepherds, maybe that way of seeing it doesn't seen so personal, but cattle was a measure of wealth back then. He owns the stuff men make currency to own. Jesus talked a lot about money, talents and so forth, but He never needed it. It was a measure of heart value.

[Starise]

I'm sorry,  I just had to bring this up because in Luke 16 a passage  preceeds the story of Lazarus and the rich man that I think leads us into the Lazarus story. Jesus is  discussing comparitive worldly concepts to translate to heavenly ones, and initially it seems to me to be a bit ambiguous.

In verses 1-14 Jesus discusses an irresponsible worldly manager who managed the assets of a rich man. Accusations of waste were coming against him. When word gets to the rich man, he prepares to fire the manager.

The manager fearing loss of his future and looking at his future, decides to lighten the load of all those who owed his master. On the surface this looks as if the master would be furious because he will be loosing money, and yet this isn't the case. He is commended instead, maybe more for shrewdness than anything else which I'll admit doesn't seem typically how I imagine those things to work, but Jesus is speaking here and I know there are deeper meanings.

Essentially the manager makes affiable aqaintances so that when he is fired he will have a network of support. In a nutshell, I scratched your back really well. I know you'll open doors for me later on, and I always dislike the footnote bibles on some of this because they lack good explanation, most of them.

Jesus then tells us to use worldly wealth to gain friends so that when it is gone we will be welcomed into heavely dwellings, correlation to that manager who made wordly friends. How would one do this? By sharing what I have with others. By going light on those who are obligated to me. How else would you say? I see these concepts aligning with the biblical parable of the man who was let go by the king for a large debt. The king granted relief. That same man was then unwilling to forgive a much smaller debt owed to him which enraged the king. Spiritual implications are that God forgives us and we should forgive others.

I know peeople use their wealth to make friends, but I find that a bit dishonest. I mean maybe I don't really want to be your friend, but you pulled me into some benefit for myself and now I'm obligated? That sounds more like an employee/employer or renter/landlord sort of thing. So I think it's something with some ambiguity that needs ironing out.

I am under the impression we are to use WHATEVER we have at our disposal to help in the task of love to others through Christ. Wealth always inwardly directed is not good use of it.The question for how a person might focus it outwardly is probably an individual one. I'll never forget I was selling cards many years ago as a young person trying to make some money on the side even though sales wasn't my thing. Most of the more well off people had no interest, but there was this man and his family living in a shack in the country. Racially oppressed in that area, I remember being kindly invited in and they bought some of my cards. The man with the least amount of money in the most oppressive conditions bought my cards.

Anyways, here's the text to this. How would you say it ties in to the later story of Lazarus?

Luke 16:1-14

16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. ² So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

³ “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— ⁴ I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

⁵ “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

⁶ “‘Nine hundred gallons^[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

⁷ “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels^[b] of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

⁸ “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. ⁹ I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

¹⁰ “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. ¹¹ So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? ¹² And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

¹³ “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

¹⁴ The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

 

 

[AnOrangeCat]

22 hours ago, Starise said:

Jesus then tells us to use worldly wealth to gain friends so that when it is gone we will be welcomed into heavely dwellings, correlation to that manager who made wordly friends. How would one do this? By sharing what I have with others. By going light on those who are obligated to me. How else would you say? I see these concepts aligning with the biblical parable of the man who was let go by the king for a large debt. The king granted relief. That same man was then unwilling to forgive a much smaller debt owed to him which enraged the king. Spiritual implications are that God forgives us and we should forgive others.

I know peeople use their wealth to make friends, but I find that a bit dishonest. I mean maybe I don't really want to be your friend, but you pulled me into some benefit for myself and now I'm obligated? That sounds more like an employee/employer or renter/landlord sort of thing. So I think it's something with some ambiguity that needs ironing out.

This is an interesting take. I've admittedly always struggled with this one because of the element of dishonesty and the fact that it gets commended. I do get the idea that the point is to use what we have responsibly and to keep our eyes on God rather than the money. Matthew 25 has a parable that expresses the same idea, that one who's been faithful with a little will be faithful with much. The way you framed is one of the more sensible interpretations I've heard.

Another one of the better ones is that it's not so much the dishonesty that's being praised so much as the shrewdness and the ability to plan for the future. "For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light" would be the key verse in support of that, and I can see a case for it. In the end this is one of those things to eventually ask Jesus for clarity about in person.

23 hours ago, Starise said:

Anyways, here's the text to this. How would you say it ties in to the later story of Lazarus?

Also interesting. Both have an element of giving an undue priority to money. I also note that there's a brief speaking on adultery in between. At first glance it seems a little random and out of place, but the relationship between God and Israel and then later the believers in general has often been compared to marriage. Maybe it's not so random after all.

[Marathoner]

Our brother @Starise gets to the heart of the matter regarding wealth: the willingness to part ways with wealth (which comes in many forms) reveals a heart that understands who gives, and who takes: the Lord. 

For the first time in all of my days, I enjoy the fruit of my labors. I confess how uncomfortable I was when I acquired an income; I lived waiting for it to be taken away. That's how it was for all of my life... but the Lord promised this to me when I left the mountains and came to this city.

He didn't chastise me for that expectation for He knows my conditioning must fade away. Ah, but this income never went away and has steadily increased over the years. I asked the Lord about investing and He neither forbid me nor counseled against investing money. In fact, He commended doing that because He knows the trial I have faced with having money to begin with.

It's a big step.

The rich man lacked compassion and love for his neighbor. The wealthy and poor alike can do the same. 

[Starise]

11 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Another one of the better ones is that it's not so much the dishonesty that's being praised so much as the shrewdness and the ability to plan for the future.

That’s what I got too. Thanks for your thoughts. 
Back to the OP. I realize I took this off the rails some.

Originally I disassociated the relationship of wealth to  a person’s eternal destiny, and technically it isn’t the wealth in and of itself. It seems to simply be the environment which helped to exacerbate a pre exiting problem. I imagined if Lazarus had been wealthy, if that would have changed him? And Jesus could have easily chosen wealth but decided to move around with no permanent place to lay His head as anything else would have been a detriment to His mission. Later on in that Acts setting, believers sold their belongings and shared with other believers. Nowadays we give to churches and charities mostly although lots of self sacrifice can still be found. 
The backdrop for that story remains. A man living in luxury who apparently never helped another man right by his gate who was so poor he was a beggar. Possibly he was unable to work due to health issues. 
I believe we are either given wealth or we worked to achieve it, and since everything comes from God, so does the ability to gain or inherit wealth. Christians show God’s love in various ways, and if one has extra they could be sharing I think Gid expects us to do do as we are led by the Spirit.

The lost person has no such inclinations most of the time revealing what they are. Some give for visibility and trickle back benefits. The world wants us to think wealth is the pinnacle of happiness when really in many cases it only shows a bunch of empty pursuits.

The rich man made a terrible trade. His life in luxury ignoring God in exchange for what eventually happens when a person ignores God.

 

[Santoso]

On 6/1/2025 at 8:51 PM, timf said:

I have been chewing on this for a while have have two possible theories, but am not completely satisfied with ether.It is said that it is appointed for man once to die and then judgement. However, it seems that the rich man had not yet been judged, but was experiencing torment. A sort of oblique answer is given by Abraham;

Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

1. The first theory was that this sort of torment was for Israel as a consequence of disobeying the law (neglect of the poor).

2. The second theory is that this might be independent of final judgement and apply to those who held the truth in unrighteousness. This might be a way that truth is appreciated resulting in a time when every knee shall band and tongue confess. This might see some support from the definition of torments (basanos) This word was used for a touchstone that showed the purity of gold and silver coins. It was also used to describe the torture Greek slaves we given in legal proceeding to verify their testimony.

There is not much detail given about hell (Sheol or Hades). However, phrases like "whose iniquities are upon their bones" (Ez 32:27) do not shed much light.

I would be interested to hear what others, who have given this subject some study, have discovered.

 

Beloved ones, we heard:

 

“But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy GOOD THINGS, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

What thy GOOD THINGS? 

 

Let us compare what GOOD THINGS spiritually.

 

This, we also heard in the book of Luke: 

 

“He hath filled the hungry with GOOD THINGS; And the rich he hath sent empty away.”

‭‭Luke‬ ‭1‬:‭53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

That we perceive: 

 

If we know WHAT hath he filled the hungry, we know what GOOD THINGS. 

 

And this, we also heard:

 

“Blessed are ye that HUNGER now: for ye shall be FILLED. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.”

‭‭Luke‬ ‭6‬:‭21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Now, let us compare the sermon on the Mount from the book of Luke to the sermon on the Mount from the book of Matthew.

 

“Blessed are they which do HUNGER and thirst after RIGHTEOUSNESS: for they shall be FILLED.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Now, let us consider again what we heard Jesus said:

 

“But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy GOOD THINGS, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

Paraphrasing for clarity:

 

“But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst THY (self) RIGHTEOUSNESS, and likewise Lazarus RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

 

Paraphrasing for more clarity:

 

“But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst THY (self) RIGHTEOUSNESS, and likewise Lazarus RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD: but now he is TESTIFIED, and thou art DENIED.”

 

Beloved ones, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It was NOT talking about PHYSICAL riches  but riches OF SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

 

And the meaning of the name of LAZARUS: God Has Helped, My God Is Helper.

 

That we perceive,

that the rich man has NOT believed God has helped, rich man’s  God is ADVERSARY (SATAN). 

 

That we perceive: the rich man’s SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS is ADVERSARY’s RIGHTEOUSNESS. 

 

Beloved ones, let us remember THE WORD OF GOD that we in our lifetime receive NOT OUR SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, but GOD’s RIGHTEOUSNESS, that likewise God has helped, our God is helper: and now we are TESTIFIED in Christ, for we are accepted in the BELOVED CHRIST.

 

For we also heard:

 

“to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED.”

‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

To God the Father be all glory and thanksgiving through Christ.Amen