Israel...a democracy?

August 26, 2003

Look at the examples of the Irgun and associates. Did it help them? The Palestinians aren't doing anything different than them. Don't you see a hint of hypocrisy there. Did you even check the links?

August 26, 2003

Idolsmasher

I checked the links. They did not tell me much more than I already know. First of all, where do you get the idea that all of Israel hails the Lechi aka, Stern gang, and the Irgun as heroes? If you check your history, you will find that at the time these groups were operating, they were despised by the general Israeli public. No one was naming streets after them. No one was plastering their pictures on the sides of buildings, and billboards. It is the Palestinians who turn terrorists into heroes and virtual objects of worship. Generally speaking, Jewish sensabilities do not allow Jews to sanction or approve of terrorism, even when it works in their favor.

Jewish people who have committed terrorism and purposely killed innocent, noncombatant civilians, should be reviled by all. Neither the Irgun, nor the Lechi should ever be painted as representing the ideals or aspirations of the Jewish state, or the Jewish people. For you to assert that the Irgun and Lechi represent the values of the Jewish Israeli community is insulting. Furthermore, I would also like to point out that you have to go all the way back to 1948 to drudge up accusations like this; or, you might be able to find more recent isolated events that you can label as "Jewish terrorism." Compare your paltry number of examples of "Jewish terrorism" with what Israel has had to face. Israel has been subjected to fighting five defensive wars and countless terrorist attacks every day and night for the last 55 years since May 15, 1948. I do not have to go back decades to find Palestinian terorism. I can just open up today's paper.

To say that the state of Israel was born out of terrorism is just plain false. Israel was born as a result of #1, The Hand of God in accordance with His Word, which His prophets spoke, and #2, Un Gen. Assembly resolution 181 which offered the Palestinians their own state right next to Israel. The Jews accepted the two state solution and the Arabs rejected it. Had the Arabs accepted the two state solution, there would have been two nations born on May 14, 1948, and there would not be ONE Palestinian refugee today. It is the Arabs who created the refugee problem to begin with. Israel does not owe the Palestinians a country. It is the nations of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq who invaded Israel on May 15, 1948 that created the refugee situation we see today. They are the ones who owe the Palestinians a State. It is unfair for anyone to force Israel to resolve a refugee crisis they did not create.

As I said earlier, while we can find isolated cases of "Jewish terrorism" in Israel's past, those who committed such acts, did so without the blessing or sanction of the Israeli government. Those people were as equally criminal as Hamas, or any terrorist group that Israel is facing today. Why then did Begin of the Irgun, and Shamir of the Lechi actually get elected as Prime ministers? By the time both of those men achieved that kind of power, people had forgotten (either accidentally or, on purpose) their past. Also, when people are facing the horrors that Israel faces, they tend to want fighters in office who will defend their interests. Sometimes, people will ignore the black spots in their candidate's past, if he serves their interests. Also, many of these are unsaved people. You cannot expect unbelievers to make all of the same decisions that you and I would make. I do not in any way justify Begin and Shamir, or the things that they did while they were members of those groups. They will answer to God for their lives as will we all.

As I said in an earlier post, the Israeli government also severely punishes Israeli soldiers who intentionally harm or kill innocent noncombatants. If you check the IDF website, you find that the soldiers are held to a very strict level of professionalism. There are many soldiers who have been sent to prison for life because of misactions that could be labeled as terrorism. Of course, people who do not like Israel, conveniently IGNORE such facts.

Idolsmasher, you have said:

Palestinian militant groups have the same sort of aspirations as they had, namely, a homeland, and yet somehow they are evil and the Jews are holy and righteous. Check out these links if you don't believe me.

First of all, "Palestinian militant groups" are actually terrorists. They are not "militants," they are terrorists. Secondly, these terrorists DO NOT have the same aspirations of the Jewish people, and they have made that clear many times. The Jewish people were willing to accept a Palestinians state next to theirs. Hamas, Hizbullah, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, and Yassir Arafat have made it clear that they will not rest until they possess every square inch of Israel, and every Jew in the Middle East in drowned in the sea. The Jews have NEVER called for the destruction of the Arab community. Answer me this: If the aspirations of the Palestinian terrorists was to have a homeland as you say, then why have they turned down all three attempts by Israel and the UN to give them a homeland in 1935, 1948, and 2000?

The problem here is that people are holding Israel to a different standard than they would hold themselves to if they were facing a similiar threat. Other countries have responded with greater ferocity against terrorism than anything Israel has ever done. In response to terrorism, the United States has killed more innocent people in the last couple of years than Israel has in the last 10 years. Of course, the US government pointed out that those people were being used as human shields and thus their deaths are not our fault. Funny..., when Israel accidentally kills human shields, all of a sudden the Jews are painted as vicious monsters. Look at how mercilessly Britain dealt with Shin Fein. How about when terrorists took over that theater in Moscow? The Russians went in and killed the terrorists and several innocents, and the world was basically silent. I did not see any UN resolutions floating around in any of those cases. But, ho boy, let Israel make the smallest misstep, and there are UN resolutions galore. It is nothing more than a clear case of double standards.

You really do not have have a clue Idolsmasher; you just dont. You do not speak to the real issues. All you seek to do is demonize Israel. You bring up the same tired accusations that people have been using for years. What continues to concern me about your posts is that you do not voluntarily condemn the terrorists that strike Israel. In fact, it would appear from your latest statements above, that you approve of them, and seek to justify them. That is very troubling to lay the least.

August 26, 2003

First of all, where do you get the idea that all of Israel hails the Lechi aka, Stern gang, and the Irgun as heroes? If you check your history, you will find that at the time these groups were operating, they were despised by the general Israeli public.

The same people became the leadership of the state of Israel and are touted as heroes. At least three of their Prime Ministers were leaders of these groups and one of the groups was made into the IDF etc. It's pretty clear that they were instrumental in Israel getting out from under British domination so why should the Palestinians just surrender their homeland to Israel without a fight. There are numerous examples of illegal armed resistance gaining people their lands and freedom, including the USA when the rebels (which could have been termed terrorists or illegal combatents) gained freedom from British rule.Personally I think all this name calling is just so much semantics. It's clear to any objective mind who the oppressors are in the case of Israel and the Palestinians, it's Israel. Remove the religious aspect and you see a huge human rights abuse continuing unabated.

August 26, 2003

Idolsmasher

The same people became the leadership of the state of Israel and are touted as heroes. At least three of their Prime Ministers were leaders of these groups and one of the groups was made into the IDF etc. It's pretty clear that they were instrumental in Israel getting out from under British domination so why should the Palestinians just surrender their homeland to Israel without a fight. There are numerous examples of illegal armed resistance gaining people their lands and freedom, including the USA when the rebels (which could have been termed terrorists or illegal combatents) gained freedom from British rule.Personally I think all this name calling is just so much semantics. It's clear to any objective mind who the oppressors are in the case of Israel and the Palestinians, it's Israel. Remove the religious aspect and you see a huge human rights abuse continuing unabated.

First of all, only 2 Prime ministers were connected with Lechi and the Stern gang. Second, can you prove that they were elected specifically because of their affiliations with those groups? Thirdly, you are again trying to act as if they Irgun and Lechi represented all of Israel and you ignore that fact that when they were operating, the overwhelming majority of Israelis hated them. You claim they are touted as heroes. You do not know what you are talking about. You seem to forget that there was another Jewish organization called the Haganah which was the forerunner of the modern IDF. They had way more to do with getting Israel free from British domination than Irgun or Lechi. The British are another subject altogether.

Why should the Palestinians just surrender their homeland to Israel without a fight?

They do not have and have never had a "homeland." There is no such thing as a Palestinian. There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. The term Palestinian was not even used in modern times to refer to Arabs living in Israel until 1964. Arafat was the first to do that when he created the Palestinian Liberation Organization. When the Jews were migrating back to the land, it was virtually unoccupied. Some Arabs migrated there after the Jews returned and got jobs irrigating the desert and dry up the swamps. Even Mark Twain who visited the land, said that it was sparcely populated and they could travel for hours without seeing anyone. The Arabs only came to the land when the Jews returned. Until that time, they did not care about the land at all. I take it that you consider all of the land of Israel as Palestinian land. The Bible says that it is God's land and that He gave it to Israel. Gen. 17: 8,9. No, I will not remove the religious aspect. The land belongs to Israel by Divine right. If you have a problem with that, you will need to explain to God why He is wrong to give it to the Jews.

There are numerous examples of illegal armed resistance gaining people their lands and freedom, including the USA when the rebels (which could have been termed terrorists or illegal combatents) gained freedom from British rule.

Now we see what you really are. You actually have the audacity to say that men like George Washington, Patrcik Henry, Ben Franklin and those men who fought for America's freedom are basically terrorists?!? The American war for Independence, in your opinion, is an example of "illegal armed resistance?" That is just dumbest thing you have posted to date. I hope you are not an American. If you are, you do not deserve to be.

How is it clear that Israelis are the aggressors? Every war that Israel has fought, was imposed on them by the Arabs. It is the Palestinians that break every promise they make. It is the Palestinians terrorists that perpetrate terrorism. You keep saying that Israel is the aggressor, but you offer nothing in the way of evidence. If Israel was as evil as you try to make them out to be, the Palestinians would not even exist. You completely ignore the fact that Israel gives them free medical care, welfare, social security. You ignore the times that Israel has tried to build them homes, hospitals and schools. Israel has even gone into Palestinian towns and built modern sewage systems and facilities so that they could have some semblance of sanitation. They were opposed by the Arabs twice in the UN and resolutions were passed to prevent Israel to continue such things. Jew haters strive to ignore these facts.

So really, in your opinion, any attempt by Israel to resist terrorism is actually "illegal armed resistance," and Israeli aggression is defined by you as "any attempt by Israel to defend themselves against Arab aggression." I am I understanding you? If Israel accidentally kills an innocent, in your opinion, it is a blatant human rights violation, yet when terrorists intentionally kill Jewish innocents, it is OK with you. If Israel kills a terrorist mastermind, in your opinion, that is a violation of the Geneva Convention. Terrorism though, is not a violation of the Geneva Convention and is in your opinion "legal armed resistance. They could kill every Jew in the Holy Land, and you would be OK with that. But let one Arab die as result of Jewish self-defense and it is the Jews that should be seen as the criminals. Oh and let's not forget: According to you, America was born out of terrorism and illegal armed resistance. America is as bad as Israel right? Your moral compass is desperate need of repair.

August 27, 2003

Second, can you prove that they were elected specifically because of their affiliations with those groups?

I don't have to because I never claimed that but I'm sure that the people knew of their background as terrorists

There is no such thing as a Palestinian.

Funny, the whole world recognizes that there is.... except the zionists and their indoctrinated supporters.

You seem to forget that there was another Jewish organization called the Haganah which was the forerunner of the modern IDF. They had way more to do with getting Israel free from British domination than Irgun or Lechi.

They all had ties to each other.

The American war for Independence, in your opinion, is an example of "illegal armed resistance?"

Well I'm sure to the British whose colony it was it was illegal.

How is it clear that Israelis are the aggressors?

Duh, well... how about by encouraging and funding settlements, military occupation, denying Palestinians a homeland, by destroying their cities and infrastructure, assasinations, bulldozing homes, destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living, taking most of the available water and limiting the amount Palestinians get, by building security fences that take a little more Palestinian land, checkpoints, denying access to medical care, Sabra and Shattila, developing nuclear weapons illegally and continuing to lie and deny it, torture of prisoners, holding people without charge for years and many other means. Also they have the arsenal of a superpower with the latest high tech weapons, aircraft, and gadjetry most of which comes from Uncle Sam and the Palestinians have firecrackers by comparison.

Nothing you can say can change the fact that Israel was born through the use of terror. The history books prove it.

JohnS · August 28, 2003

Nothing you can say can change the fact that Israel was born through the use of terror. The history books prove it.

Finally, you have hit on some truth. It had to happen....law of averages and such.

Israel was definitely born through the use of terror. It is in all the history books except some used by Muslims in the Middle East, who would deny the sky was blue and, sadly enough, CNN would report it and the intellectuals would jump on the bandwagon.

The terror was 6 million Jews rounded up and exterminated. Why? They were the cause of all of the problems of society.

The story sounds strikingly familiar, but at least you have finally arrived at some truth.

August 28, 2003

Idolsmasher

Duh, well... how about by encouraging and funding settlements, military occupation, denying Palestinians a homeland, by destroying their cities and infrastructure, assasinations, bulldozing homes, destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living, taking most of the available water and limiting the amount Palestinians get, by building security fences that take a little more Palestinian land, checkpoints, denying access to medical care, Sabra and Shattila, developing nuclear weapons illegally and continuing to lie and deny it, torture of prisoners, holding people without charge for years and many other means. Also they have the arsenal of a superpower with the latest high tech weapons, aircraft, and gadjetry most of which comes from Uncle Sam and the Palestinians have firecrackers

As always, you always ignore the context in which many of those things occur.

encouraging and funding settlements

The West Bank and Gaza are Jewish land. While should Jews not live on Jewish land? The West Bank is Judea/Samaria. That was given to them by God. It is theirs by Divine Right. The settlements are not acts of aggression. Sneaking into settlements and murdering Jewish babies in their beds IS aggression. You have everything backwards here.

military occupation

The Palestinians are not under occupation. It is not their land. "Occupation" is a term that refers to the conquering of a sovereign nation and then establishing complete and indefinate control of that former sovereign nation. The Palestinians have never had a sovereign nation. Israel did not take any land away from them, because it was never theirs to begin with. Israel took control of the territories from Jordan and Egypt. Israel's continual military presence in the West Bank and Gaza, is the result of the terrorism that eminates from those regions. If the terrorism stopped, Israel's military would not need to be there.

denying Palestinians a homeland, ,

They are not denying them a homeland. They have tried to give them a homeland, and the Palestinians turn it down every time. 1935, the international community tried to give them three times what is currently offered under the road map and they rejected it. They rejected UN Res. 181 which the Jews accepted and it guaranteed a two state solution. Again, in 2000, Barak offered Arafat 97% of what he asked for and Arafat walked away, and instuted the "2nd Intifada." Again, Israel tries to give the Palestinians a homeland, and is repayed with bloodshed. Even Bill Clinton was stunned. He placed the failure for the Palestinians not having a state squarely on the shoulders of Arafat and his regime. The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So, to say that they have been denied a homeland is ludicrous since the most recent history of last few years says otherwise. They do not want a state next Israel, they want a state instead of Israel. From the Palestinian perspective, they are denied a homeland because the Jews exist in a little patch of land roughly half the size of Lake Michigan. From the Palestinian perspective (and yours as well I guess), the problem is not that they are killing Jews; the problem is that they Jews do not want to die. There would be peace in the Middle East they say, if the Jews were drowned in the sea. I judge from reading your many posts that you concur with the Arab agenda to exterminate the Jews.

by destroying their cities and infrastructure, assasinations, bulldozing homes, destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living

Here is where the context really comes into play. Jenin for example: most of the buildings in that city that were destroyed, were booby trapped by the Palestinians. The booby traps were designed to cause the buildings to implode on themselves and possibly kill an IDF soldier(s) in the proccess. If you look at a map of Jenin, the area where the battle took place is really quite small compared to city as whole. The scene of the battle was only about two blocks or so. The city itself was many times that size. Same in Ramalah. The infrastructures you mention are terrorist infrastructures. They are not REAL infrastructures that we find in civilized countries in other parts of the world. Destroying those Arafat's infrastructure is a blow against terrorism, not statehood.

assasinations,

The assassinations are committed against terrorist leaders who do not deserve to live anyway. They are blight on humanity, and should elimated. This is no different than what we have done to Bin Laden's terrorist buddies. Why should Israel not be allowed to imitate the US?

bulldozing homes

The homes that are bulldozed are those of the terrorists and their accomplices. Israel is not running around and indiscrimately bulldozing the first Palestinian home they come to. This is a legitimate military countermeasure. Many of these "homes" are actually bomb factories and armories to store weapons for future terrorist activities.

destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living

The "crops" and olive tree groves that Israel destroys are planted and used to hide the entrances to tunnels used to smuggle bomb making materials and other weapons into Israel from other places. For every crop or olive grove that Israel destroys, they replant more in other places. Again, you need to apply a little more context here.

taking most of the available water and limiting the amount Palestinians get,

Israel has actually increased the available water due to more modern sanitation facilities If it were not for israel, the Palestinians would not have any water treatment facilities. Israel managed to build treatment plants in both Gaza and the WestBank before the UN aquiessed to Arab pressure and passed two resolutions calling on Israel to halt all "resettlement activity." Also, dont forget, Israel also built the powerplants that supply the treatment facilities with power to provide cleaner water than the Palestinians ever got during 19 years of Hell under Jordanian and Egyptian control. Sometimes Israel cuts off the water to a particular town when they are trying to flush out a terrorist. This has had a measure of success in convincing Palestinians to give up the terrorists in their midst.

building security fences that take a little more Palestinian land,

The key word you used was "security." The terrorists have been sneaking into Israel across fields undetected and committing terrorism. The fence prohibits or at least impairs their ability to do so. The fence does not encroach upon Palestinian land, because they have no land. The West Bank does not belong to them. It never has. It does not cut off access to Israel via roads and streets. It is no different than the fence the US has to prevent illegal immigration.

checkpoints,

The checkpoints are bothersome, but are necessary. They are not an act of aggression. I find it humorous that you call it that. This really makes the point that I have made in other posts. You are opposed to ANYTHING that Israel does to prevent terrorism. It is as if you want all the Jews of Israel to die as much as the Palestinians do.

denying access to medical care,

This is just patently false. While there may be some isolated incidents where this may have happened, in general this is not true. Those would have to be examined on a case by case basis. In fact, since 1967, they have enjoyed free medical care. When they were under the control of Jordan and Egypt, many Palestinians died of curable diseases and were denied any medical help by the Arab community. Many Palestinian children died of malnutrition and childhood illnesses that could have been prevented. After 1967, all of that changed, and now, even terrorists who injure themselves while trying to kill Israelis, recieve top notch medical care.

You may also be referring to how Israel stops Red Cresent ambulances from reaching certain hotspots, like what happened in Jenin. Israel does not immediately allow ambulances into these areas for two reasons. #1. The Ambulances are also used to transport weapons and more terrorists and therefore, must be searched before entrance is allowed. #2. Israel, more than once, has encountered hotspots that are littered with booby trapped exlplosives. Israel is careful to deny access to emergency vehicles, until the area is secured and the booby traps have been disarmed. This is for the safety of the medical technicians in the ambulance. Again, we would not be talking about these kinds of things if Israel were not provoked into a military response by the Palestinian terrorists.

Sabra and Shattila,

Unfortunately, I am not as familiar about this conflict as I need to be. I will study more about that and the particulars, and get back to you on it.

developing nuclear weapons illegally and continuing to lie and deny it,

Israel is not developing nuclear weapons illegally. Israel has not even signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Of course Israel's Arab neighbors have signed the treaty, yet continue to build nuclear facilties with a view to creating a nuclear weapon to use against Israel (and the US?). Israel is outnumbered nearly 100 to 1. You have six million Jews surrounded by 550 million maniacal enemies who are committed to her destruction. The only way Israel can offest this imbalance by nuclear capability. Israel has neither admitted or denied the presence of nuclear weapons, but that is really a non-issue since Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria and even Russia (also an avowed enemy of Israel), are all signatories on the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty and yet stand in violation of the treaty without so much as a peep from the rest of the world and the International Atomic Energy Agency.

torture of prisoners

This is a Palestinian claim that is false. In 1999, the Israeli supreme court made the decision that all forms of torture were prohibited, even the types used by the United States such as sleep deprivation, forced uncomfortable positions, loud music, shaking, hoods over the head, etc. Torture is prohibited by Israeli law. You should read the statements made by the President of the Israeli Supreme Court, Aharon Barak. (Dershowitz, "A Case For Israel," p. 136)

holding people without charge for years

On this one, you are correct. Israel is far from perfect. Even so, Israel's imperfections do not justify the irrational hatred that you poessess for Israel. This is one of those mistakes that Israel makes that would have never happened in the first place, if Israel were not subjected mercilessly to terrorism on a daily basis.

Also they have the arsenal of a superpower with the latest high tech weapons, aircraft, and gadjetry most of which comes from Uncle Sam and the Palestinians have firecrackers

Yes, Israel does have some amazing fire power at her disposal. Yes, she buys this from the US. Guess what? Egypt, and Saudi Arabia also get tons of weapons from the US. Yet, in 1948, 1956, 1967, Israel fought some pretty ferocious wars (which were started by the Arabs) without US weapons. In 1948, Israel was denied weapons by Truman even though Israel was under attack. Outnumbered 70 to1, and lacking the benefit of air cover, Israel beat back 5 Arab armies using inferior weapons. In 1967, Israel beat Syria, Jordan and Egypt with an airforce comprised of French Mirage III fighters. Yet, in the same war, Egypt was armed with American weapons, including American made Fletcher Class destroyers. Israel sunk them all. Israel's tanks are not American made. The current Merkava battle tank is 100% Israeli born and bred. It is comparable to our M-1 A-1 Abrams. Israel's missle technology such as the current Arrow II program, is a product of Israeli ingenuity. But you know, that is not really why Israel is as powerful as she is. Israel's military might was predicted by God in Scripture. In fact, God actually says that it is something that He is causing to happen. Here is what God says: "In that day I will make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like torch of fire in a sheaf; they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. The L-rd also shall save the tents of Judah first, that they glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the L-rd defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David and house of David shall be as G-d, as the angel of the L-rd before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

August 28, 2003

We are wasting our time using facts and reason with Smash. He doesn't want to deal with it because he hates jews. It's that simple, really.

Not even a kid of his age and hair style can be that ignorant of reality unless the darkness is truly dark.

But remember this Idol...the TRUTH will set you free when you are ready to receive it.

John 3:16

Now you can go back to sleep....

:sleep:

OneAccord · August 29, 2003

Idolsmasher

Duh, well... how about by encouraging and funding settlements, military occupation, denying Palestinians a homeland, by destroying their cities and infrastructure, assasinations, bulldozing homes, destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living, taking most of the available water and limiting the amount Palestinians get, by building security fences that take a little more Palestinian land, checkpoints, denying access to medical care, Sabra and Shattila, developing nuclear weapons illegally and continuing to lie and deny it, torture of prisoners, holding people without charge for years and many other means. Also they have the arsenal of a superpower with the latest high tech weapons, aircraft, and gadjetry most of which comes from Uncle Sam and the Palestinians have firecrackers

As always, you always ignore the context in which many of those things occur.

[

Shilou:

Your comment here was shocking to me! It's okay to operate in this way as long as it in in context????????? Sorry, but this is the kind of stuff that totally turns people off to Christianity.

It absolutely contradicts the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. How can you even hope to share the gospel with a Palestinian with this kind of love?

QUOTE

destroying crops and olive trees and any means by which they can earn a living

The "crops" and olive tree groves that Israel destroys are planted and used to hide the entrances to tunnels used to smuggle bomb making materials and other weapons into Israel from other places. For every crop or olive grove that Israel destroys, they replant more in other places. Again, you need to apply a little more context here.

This one I have a really hard time believeing. Convince me.

Yod says:

We are wasting our time using facts and reason with Smash. He doesn't want to deal with it because he hates jews. It's that simple, really.

OA:

Yod, what do you call a Jew who is opposed to Israeli policy against the Palestinians?

QUOTE

There is no such thing as a Palestinian.

Funny, the whole world recognizes that there is.... except the zionists and their indoctrinated supporters.

OA asks:

What is a Jew, really? I have asked this question elsewhere and gotten vague answers. Is it a race or a religion? It seems to me there is no pure Jewish stock, as they were so interbred with the Gentiles in the OT and onward. Even Jesus' lineage was not pure, and had several Gentiles along the way. Jewish people surely have the blood of the mixed multiudes in their heritage. Thus love thy neighbor even as thy self can be seen in an interesting new light.

August 29, 2003

OA:
Yod, what do you call a Jew who is opposed to Israeli policy against the Palestinians?

Here is a good point. Almost half of the country of Israel is opposed. Arafat could win this "battle" without blowing up another child but the liberal Israelis are tired of burying their children and have accepted that only force will work against such brutal bloodthirsty terrorists.

If they didn't want peace at all....why would they be trying to give away their homeland?

QUOTE
There is no such thing as a Palestinian.

Funny, the whole world recognizes that there is.... except the zionists and their indoctrinated supporters.

No...what is funny is that there was no issue of the West Bank being "their" land until Israel got it from Jordan in 1967. Until that time, they were simply Jordanian arabs who lived in the area traditionally known as Palestine.

It amazes me how short sighted out historical perspective has become. The bigger the lie, the easier we swallow. Arafat makes this stuff up out of thin air because he is mentally deranged.

If we want to use THEIR definition of what a Palestinian is, then Ariel Sharon is a Palestinian and Arafat is a Tunisian.

OA asks:
What is a Jew, really? I have asked this question elsewhere and gotten vague answers. Is it a race or a religion? It seems to me there is no pure Jewish stock, as they were so interbred with the Gentiles in the OT and onward. Even Jesus' lineage was not pure, and had several Gentiles along the way. Jewish people surely have the blood of the mixed multiudes in their heritage. Thus love thy neighbor even as thy self can be seen in an interesting new light.

A jew can be defined in many ways. It is a race...and it is a religion whereby one can "join" a race....this makes it quite unique in world history because no other race can be "joined"

The Bible defines a true jew as one who has the faith and bloodline of Abraham...yet the Bible does not exclude those who are not "true" jews from being jewish.

It's not that confusing if you accept the biblical definitions.

Mostly, they are blinded for a season for a reason. (I'm a poet!)

It's not our job to condemn or condone any unbelievers no matter what their racial or ethnic persuasion but we will be judged by how we respond to the Lord's call to bring the gospel "to the jew primarily and equally to the gentile" Romans 1:16

An overview of this thread will show that no one desires to see Palestinians (Jordanian arabs) perish. They hold the key to their own fate.

Spiritually they are no more lost than the Israeli jews.

But the darkness of murdering innocents as the PRIMARY TARGET is horribly wrong. Smash won't even acknowledge that they have done anything wrong because, after all, they are only killing jews so who cares?