Israel...a democracy?

[Guest shiloh357]

OneAccord

Shilou:

Your comment here was shocking to me! It's okay to operate in this way as long as it in in context????????? Sorry, but this is the kind of stuff that totally turns people off to Christianity.

It absolutely contradicts the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. How can you even hope to share the gospel with a Palestinian with this kind of love?

Did you even read the post where I dealt with these things? What I was saying about context was that when you examine what Israel is doing in light of the terrorism that they are subjected to, they are not as unreasonable as they appear when examined by themselves.

OnceAccord, consider this: Imagine what our war in Afghanistan would have looked like if our attacks on the Taliban had been reported on without the context of 9/11. Can you imagine what the world would have thought about the US? We would have looked like a bully. The civililized world did not criticize us because, they understood our justification for those attacks

What is missing in many discussions about Israel's defensive measures is context. People absolutely refuse to examine Israel's actions within the context of the terrorist attacks that precede them.

In answer to your question, yes, these things are OK when the only other option is to sit around and let more of your children get blown up on buses and in grocery stores. In fact, Israel has sacrificed more innocents than the Palestinians. I am puzzled as to why you are opposed even to the non-lethal measures that Israel employs to protect itself. Like Idolsmasher, you do not offer any criticism of the terrorism that makes these measures necessary.

I am amazed at the way most people cannot (or will not ) make the distinction between legitimate military defensive countermeasures against terrorism, and the actions of terrorists. I think that, just like Idolsmasher, you are defining "right" and "wrong" by "strong" and "weak." Israel is stronger therefore, Israel is automatically cast as the villain. People now adays, tend to want to root for the underdog. This is especially true in America. This may work in the movies, but in real life, history, logic, facts, and morality must come into play. Palestinian supporters abandon all of those when it comes to their views on Israel.

The people who support the Palestinians usually argue from emotion and not anything that is substantive. Your statements quoted above illustrate that point.

OneAccord, if you are not willing to at least make the moral distinctions that are necessary, there is no way that I can talk to you about this. If you continue to act as if terrorism, and self-defense against terrorism are morally equivilant, than there is nothing to say to you. I cannot reason with you anymore than I could reason with a member of Hamas. As long as you seek to justify or defend the terrorists, do not get all self-righteous and start lecturing me about Christianity. Coming from you it is just a bunch of hypocritical garbage.

[Guest idolsmasher]

What is missing in many discussions about Israel's defensive measures is context. People absolutely refuse to examine Israel's actions within the context of the terrorist attacks that precede them.

I think you tend to underestimate people who don't see things your way. Everybody knows what's going on over there but not everybody subscribes to your particular brand of messianic fundamentalism. You on the other hand refuse to accept that the Palestinians deserve a homeland just as much as Israel. Do you even want peace if it means a Palestinian homeland in the West Bank and Gaza? I would venture to guess a truthful answer would be no so your answer is, as George Bush would say, "bring em on". Let the bloodbath begin!

Israel has sacrificed more innocents than the Palestinians

Where do you get your facts? I'd like to see you prove this one.

I am puzzled as to why you are opposed even to the non-lethal measures that Israel employs to protect itself.

Maybe because it is subjugating millions of human beings and denying them a life?

I think that, just like Idolsmasher, you are defining "right" and "wrong" by "strong" and "weak."

For your information this assumption is completely wrong. However, more often than not it is the mighty who are the tyrants.

The people who support the Palestinians usually argue from emotion and not anything that is substantive.

And if we post the facts you just say they aren't true like you are the head of the Ministry of Truth or something. Many of your so called facts are pretty skewed in my opinion. Skewed by religious dogma to where nothing matters but your side being right and winning. Those who get in the way of your utopian dream are expendable and have no rights because they have the audacity to want to live and work where their families have lived and worked for generations and to call it home. How dare they, those evil wicked beings, claiming to have rights, how awful, they should be eliminated so our beloved elite can have everything for themselves and not have to bother with the idolatrous unclean vermin. I guess God blew it when He created the Arabs and they don't deserve the same rights that others enjoy.

It is pretty much agreed on this board that Jesus chastised the Jews for following the letter of the law and overlooking love and compassion. Love fulfils the law. So how are the Jews following God by this brutal oppression and why can't they share the land with the Palestinians instead of wanting to rid the land of them? Even many Christian supporters of Israel think like them. Israel's aim is not peace and a Palestinian homeland side by side with Israel, it is, like you, the purging of the land of Palestinians so the Jews can have it all. This is racism, not love!

[Guest shiloh357]

Idolsmasher,

I think you tend to underestimate people who don't see things your way. Everybody knows what's going on over there but not everybody subscribes to your particular brand of messianic fundamentalism. You on the other hand refuse to accept that the Palestinians deserve a homeland just as much as Israel. Do you even want peace if it means a Palestinian homeland in the West Bank and Gaza? I would venture to guess a truthful answer would be no so your answer is, as George Bush would say, "bring em on". Let the bloodbath begin!

I would have no problem with a Palestinians state living next to Israel. The Jews have historically agreed to having a Palestinian state next to Israel. They accepted a two state solution in 1937, 1948 and 2000. In 1937, it was the ARABS who rejected a state next to Israel, yet the Jews accepted it. In 1948 it was the ARABS who rejected the two state solution it was the Jews that accepted it. In 2000, it was ARAFAT who rejected the two state solution it was the Jews who accepted it. Even Bill Clinton had to admit that it was the fault of the Palestinian leadership for not having a country. This is history. You can ignore it and call it "skewed" if you want, but you are only showing your ignorance.

What have the Palestinians done to prove that they deserve a homeland? They have been given opportunities to have one. They have been given billions to build a homeland, and all they do is buy weapons to destroy Israel. Arafat has rejected any practical attempt by other countries to improve the Palestinian people's condition. He only accepts aid that he can turn into weapoons to useagainst Israel.

They are the ones who are the ones who consistently reject the notion of living in peace with Israel. Israel has never called for the destruction of the Arabs. IT is the Arabs and Palestinians who consistently call for Israel's destruction. It is groups like Hamas that say that there will be no peace until all Jews in the Middle East and the world are dead. Something that you have ignored and refused to address in any of your posts.

Historically, it is the Arabs who have consistently rejected peace with Israel there are 5 wars all of which they started, and the endless terrorism to prove it. Most of the violence initiated against Israel started before any of the issues you claim are an obstacle to peace existed.

Arab terrorism against Jews living in Israel, can be traced back as early as the 17th century. It has a history that pre-dates settlements, and the nation of Israel itself.

I think that, just like Idolsmasher, you are defining "right" and "wrong" by "strong" and "weak." 

For your information this assumption is completely wrong. However, more often than not it is the mighty who are the tyrants.

My assumption is not wrong where this issue is concerned. One of your main objections to Israel is that they are more powerful than the Palestinians. The logic you employ is ridiculous. If I go up to prize fighter and start beating on him and he turns around and busts my face up, I do not have the right to claim that he phycially assaulted me, since I was the one who actually committed the assault. The same is true with the Palestinian situation. They started the violence. If you go back and trace this whole thing historically, they started the whole thing. Yet, because Israel is stronger, they are the ones who are accused of "assaulting" the Palestinians.

The people who support the Palestinians usually argue from emotion and not anything that is substantive. 

And if we post the facts you just say they aren't true like you are the head of the Ministry of Truth or something. Many of your so called facts are pretty skewed in my opinion. Skewed by religious dogma to where nothing matters but your side being right and winning. Those who get in the way of your utopian dream are expendable and have no rights because they have the audacity to want to live and work where their families have lived and worked for generations and to call it home. How dare they, those evil wicked beings, claiming to have rights, how awful, they should be eliminated so our beloved elite can have everything for themselves and not have to bother with the idolatrous unclean vermin. I guess God blew it when He created the Arabs and they don't deserve the same rights that others enjoy.

Again, just the same old emotional rot and perverted understanding that permeates your posts. Anyone who goes back and reads my posts on this thread will see the truth.

How dare they, those evil wicked beings, claiming to have rights, how awful, they should be eliminated so our beloved elite can have everything for themselves and not have to bother with the idolatrous unclean vermin.

Strange, it is the Arabs who are calling the Jews "vermin" and also "infidels." No one has called the Arabs those names. It is the Arabs who have claimed that all of the Middle East is theirs and refuse to acknowledge the "rights" of the Jews. They persecuted Jews before the nation existed by instituting numerous pogroms of Jewish villages in pre-Israel centuries before Israel was created.

So how are the Jews following God by this brutal oppression and why can't they share the land with the Palestinians instead of wanting to rid the land of them? Even many Christian supporters of Israel think like them. Israel's aim is not peace and a Palestinian homeland side by side with Israel, it is, like you, the purging of the land of Palestinians so the Jews can have it all. This is racism, not love!

Again, history records that the Jews have tried to share the land, they have tried to give the Palestinians what they wanted, and the Palestinians just walk away and start up more terrorism. It is the Arabs who refuse to share the land with the Jews and they have made no secret that they long to destroy Israel and every Jew in the world. So, because the Jews do not want to die, you (like your Arab buddies) label any attempt by Israel to defend itself against destruction, as oppression.

If the Jews wanted it all they could take it!! Israel has the fourth most powerful military in the world. If Israel is so tyrannical and want it all for themselves, they could destroy the Palestinians, the Lebanese, and the Jordanians. If Israel were the land grabbers you make them out to be, Israel would be much larger geographically than they are now.

Israel's aim is not peace and a Palestinian homeland side by side with Israel, it is, like you, the purging of the land of Palestinians so the Jews can have it all. This is racism, not love

This is so laughable!! The Arab citizenry of Israel has ballooned from 100,000 in '48 to 1.5 million today. The Palestinians have gone from appr. 600,000 in '48 to 5 million today. If Israel were "purging the land" of the Palestinians, the population would not have increased so rapidly in such a short period of time.

Your posts continue to show the weaknesses of your arguments everytime you post. Frankly, this debate is getting pretty boring. You have nothing of substance to offer. Just a lot of ranting about racism and religious extremism. You make a lot of baseless accusations of oppression that are easily refuted. Your arguments are simply the result of a stubborn, adolescent refusal to examine the merit of facts that are readily available.

[JohnS]

[Guest idolsmasher]

What have the Palestinians done to prove that they deserve a homeland?

How about living in Palestine and then having another race move in and take over the neighbourhood? As far as I know they never agreed to the partitioning in the first place, it was forced on them by outsiders. It's really a simple concept, they are human beings and they deserve what others have.

The Jews have negotiated settlements that's true, but usually they overlook key demands of the Palestinians. For instance, the 2000 agreement you refer to left them in a non-contiguous state divided into cantons and left in place the Jewish roads and settlements that divided these cantons. No Palestinian leader could accept such a huge compromise. Just because Israel and the US come up with a plan doesn't mean it is good for the Palestinians or that they should accept whatever crumbs are thrown to them. I don't think you really even understand the issues yourself shiloh, you are just going by what you have been taught it seems. At least you speak very generally and from a one-sided bias with very few facts to back up what you are saying. You have to look a little deeper than what the US and Israeli media says to get the whole picture.

They have been given opportunities to have one. They have been given billions to build a homeland, and all they do is buy weapons to destroy Israel. Arafat has rejected any practical attempt by other countries to improve the Palestinian people's condition. He only accepts aid that he can turn into weapoons to useagainst Israel.

To be honest with you, this sounds like your own bias being vented here because it is full of imagination and heresay. The whole infrastucture that was built over the years by UN aid had built many things for the Palestinians which greatly improved their quality of life. If Arafat was spending so much money on weapons, how come he doesn't have any, or at least anything worth mentioning. Israel on the other hand is given billions in US aid every year and they have built a nuclear arsenal and are one of the most weaponized countries on earth. America gives and sells them tons of the most lethal military weapons on earth every year. What has Isael done with those weapons? They have purposely destroyed the very infrastructure that international aid has built and decimated the Palestinian means of having a viable and functioning state. Under this recent occupation, Israel has made it impossible for the Palestinian leadership to improve the Palestinian people's condition.

Most of the violence initiated against Israel started before any of the issues you claim are an obstacle to peace existed.

And the Jewish violence against Arabs too, so what's that got to do with what the obstacles are now?

Arab terrorism against Jews living in Israel, can be traced back as early as the 17th century. It has a history that pre-dates settlements, and the nation of Israel itself.

Terrorism and violence can be traced back to Cain and Abel but it has nothing to do with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

My assumption is not wrong where this issue is concerned. One of your main objections to Israel is that they are more powerful than the Palestinians.

Ok, I'm only gonna say this once so I hope you get it this time. Israel's might is not the issue! What they do with that might to a defensless people is the issue. It is the abuse of their power that is the issue.

They started the violence

Would if during the Cold War Russia sent settlers to the US and started to take people's land so they could expand their settlements to take over the country? What would America do, ask them nicely to leave? No, they would send in the army and wipe them out. Is it any wonder then that the Palestinians fought against the Jewish settlers? Who caused the violence depends on how you look at it. Definitely settling the land before the Arabs had agreed was a provocation and cause of violence just as it would be anywhere else.

Anyone who goes back and reads my posts on this thread will see the truth.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo! That's a good one.

It is the Arabs who have claimed that all of the Middle East is theirs and refuse to acknowledge the "rights" of the Jews.

You want a fact? Here's one. Egypt, Jordan, and the PLO have all said they recognize the right of Israel to exist. That's called a concession.

Again, history records that the Jews have tried to share the land, they have tried to give the Palestinians what they wanted

This just shows you don't really know the issues because Israel has never agreed to give the Palestinians what they want.

If the Jews wanted it all they could take it!! Israel has the fourth most powerful military in the world. If Israel is so tyrannical and want it all for themselves, they could destroy the Palestinians, the Lebanese, and the Jordanians.

They probably could, but that would be a crime. Not that they wouldn't do it if they thought they could get away with it, but the rest of the world wouldn't stand for it.

This is so laughable!! The Arab citizenry of Israel has ballooned from 100,000 in '48 to 1.5 million today. The Palestinians have gone from appr. 600,000 in '48 to 5 million today.

I guess the occupation has given them lots of time to make babies.

What I meant was that that seems to be their goal, along with many misguided Christian folk.

[Guest shiloh357]

Idolsmasher

How about living in Palestine and then having another race move in and take over the neighbourhood?

They did not live there. As I pointed out in another post, even Mark Twain said that the land was unteneted by anyone. It was worthless land and disease ridden to boot. The ancestors of the Palestinians did not arrive until AFTER the Jews came back under the authority of the British mandate. They got jobs working for Jews who bought the land from Arab landowners who were all to happy to sell worthless land for an inflated price. The Palestinians of today are the descendents of those migrant workers. There was no Palestinian nation in exsitance for the Jews to usurp.

For instance, the 2000 agreement you refer to left them in a non-contiguous state divided into cantons and left in place the Jewish roads and settlements that divided these cantons. No Palestinian leader could accept such a huge compromise.

To make the land contiguous would leave Israel with nearly indefensable borders. The contiguous issue was still on the table for negotiations. It was not settled. Arafat walked away without even making a counter offer. That is not negotiating. The contiguous issue might have been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties had Arafat engaged Barak at the table as a responsible negotiator would have.

If Arafat was spending so much money on weapons, how come he doesn't have any, or at least anything worth mentioning.

Because the lion's share of the money he receives in "foreign aid" goes into his pocket and the rest goes to buy the weapons. If Arafat was not sitting on nearly $2 billion, they could afford to buy better weapons. As it stands, he gets everything and his people run out in the streets and blow themselves up just to make him richer.

And the Jewish violence against Arabs too, so what's that got to do with what the obstacles are now?

Terrorism and violence can be traced back to Cain and Abel but it has nothing to do with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

My point is that you claim that the settlements are obstacles to peace, yet history shows us otherwise. Jordan and Egypt signed peace treaties with Israel when the settlements existed, and they were not an obstacle to peace. Even before the settlements existed, Israel was subjected to three wars and 19 years of terrorism, and there were no settlements.

Sure Cain and Abel do not have anything to do with the conflict, but you miss the point. The Arabs have historically initiated pogroms on the paltry Jewish communties in pre-Israel prior to twentieth century. I see this as the old "chicken and egg" scenario. Which came first- Israeli or Arab violence? I believe that history clearly shows that Israel has been in a defensive posture for the last 55 years. The modern conflict started when the Arabs (not the Palestinians) started the '48 war. That war has not really ended, the Arabs are just waging it on different fronts.

It is the abuse of their power that is the issue

Look at what the other nations have done to terrorists in their borders. Israel is much more restrained when compared to the US, Russia and Britain. When Arafat tried to over throw Hussein of Jordan, thousands of Palestinians were slaughtered in just ten days. Israel does not come close to that record. Assad of Jordan slaughtered thousands more Palestinians when there was an uprising in Syria. Again, Israel has been quite restrained when compared to other nations who faced a similiar threat.

Would if during the Cold War Russia sent settlers to the US and started to take people's land so they could expand their settlements to take over the country? What would America do, ask them nicely to leave? No, they would send in the army and wipe them out. Is it any wonder then that the Palestinians fought against the Jewish settlers? Who caused the violence depends on how you look at it. Definitely settling the land before the Arabs had agreed was a provocation and cause of violence just as it would be anywhere else.

This example is inconsistent with history since there was no Palestinian nation for the Jews to overthrow. Israel was given the right by the mandate to be in that land. The international community recognized that. Today, the Arabs have waged a very sofisticated media war and revisionist history campaign to hide the facts as they actually happened.

I guess the occupation has given them lots of time to make babies.

Yes it has. The women are told not to use birth control. They are told that the best gift they can give allah is more suicide bombers. Children are not born out of love, but out of a sick desire to breed human bombs. Why dont you address those human rights violations?

[Guest shadow2b]

What I find most interesting is the fact that IF the arab brethren of the so-called palestinians "who are a-rab muslims" just like ALL those a-rab muslims surrounding Israel, why don't all those a-rab muslims just cut off say 100 miles of their adjoining land & create a palestenian state for their a-rab muslim brothers?????? NO big problems there are there????one hundred miles of desert all looks pretty much the same doesn't it???? WHY have the SO called palestinians been kicked out of every A-rab-muslim country they ever tried to settle in????? hMMMM??? They were kicked out{at gunpoint} because they tried to overthrow the existing governments of Syria,saudia Arabia,& lastly JORDAN----SO much for brotherly love between a-rab muslims---IF anyone wants to HATE the JEWISH people why not just be honest about it & not try to hide behind some slightly veiled humane concern for a poor oppressed people such as the palestinians????????

What is even more distressing to me is the fact that some professing christians would take a stand against the JEWISH people,believe the lies, distortions of truth by the so called news media..

Sometimes I think some of those that post on these boards areNOT christians at all but just folks with an agenda to slander Israel & to create confusion & division on christian talk boards.....

Just a few thoughts for ya'll to ponder on a bit..----GOD-BLESS------------------Gary---

[Guest shadow2b]

QUOTE 

I guess the occupation has given them lots of time to make babies.

Yes it has. The women are told not to use birth control. They are told that the best gift they can give allah is more suicide bombers. Children are not born out of love, but out of a sick desire to breed human bombs. Why dont you address those human rights violations?

IT just blows my mind that an entire group of people could be told to "breed" more babies to blow themselves up while murdering JEWS & americans....HOW COULD ANY WOMAN WANT TO SEE THEIR CHILDREN BLOW THEMSELVES UP?????? WHY don't arafat & the muslim mullahs strap on bombs & go be the martyrs???? The mullahs are the "religious" leaders aren't they???? they should be "good examples" to their people--practice what they preach--so to speak----I'm afraid they would run out of arafats & mullahs too quick & then there just might be PEACE when these scumbags wereNOT around to preach their doctrines of devils & palestinian women could learn to LOVE their children instead of sending them out to be those human bombs --------------------Gary

[OneAccord]

Gary:

This is propaganda, don't buy into it. In order to justify violence against the enemy, you have to dehumanize them, demonize them.

Jesus told us to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (except for the Palestinians, it seems) Never forget that. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES

Don't believe that Palestinian women are breeding machines, that they don't love their children but are faithfully raising a generation of baby suicide bombers. That is utterly ridiculous. Palestinian women are people too, children of God, who love, laugh, do dishes, weep, grieve, and all those things that make us human.

The Jewish people are not united in this whole conflict, and never have been. Chriistians seem to think that if they fervently side with the Zionist extremists in this situation, that God will give them a special blessing. Even if this means spouting hateful propaganda, condoning violence and brutality, and oppression of the poor, fatherless, widows, and aliens.

In blessing these certain Jews that push their Zionist agendas at all cost, they are also cursing the rest of the Jews who do not agree with all this. So which Jews does God want us to 'side' with? Which agenda should we be alligning ourselves with? I say those Jews that have accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord and Saviour of their souls. GOD, THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL will bring the Jews into the land AFTER the tribualtion and Jacob's trouble. What we are seeing right now in Israel is not the dawning of the New Jerusalem. Not yet.

In the story of David, he greatly desired to build a temple for God, but God would not allow him to because he had too much blood on his hands. Apparently God does not want us building His house by the blood of others.

We should be standing for Jesus, and we should be obedient to His commandments, one of which says LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS. The Palestinians are our neighbors, too, as are the Iraqis, the North Koreans, the Syrians, the Iranians, the Israelis, the Canadians, the Wiccans, the Mormons, ad infinitum.

[Guest shadow2b]

Gary:

This is propaganda, don't buy into it. In order to justify violence against the enemy, you have to dehumanize them, demonize them.

Jesus told us to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES (except for the Palestinians, it seems) Never forget that. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES

ONE A---PROPOGANDA?????? "IF" we were to do as you suggest{which IS in GOD'S WORD} LOVE YOUR ENEMIES----I bet we would be speaking IN the deutchland language right now---I really don't understand "how" you can come to these conclusions that are so obviously wrong{imho}--DO you really believe the "news??media"??? & their documented distortions of the truth????? I really doNOT want to be insulting or rude to you & I hope i am not.....

Please explain to me "how" you have come to the conclusions you have concerning ISRAEL--the palestinians--& the arab world in general & their hatred of the JEWISH people---I am really trying to understand your point of view, so please splain this to me-----PEACE-----Gary---