The Trinity?

[Ovedya]

Assuming that your answer is yes, do you deny that there is unity in plurality/ plurality in unity in nature? If there is, then shouldn't that aspect of creation also reveal the same about the God that created it all? If we humans were created with a body, a soul, and a spirit, which are all separate parts of our being (And yet are also all one within ourselves), and we were created in the image (mirror reflection) and likeness (inner aspects) of God, then how can it be that God is not also a plural being as well?

He isn't a plural being because He says that He is not. He says that He is one. That there are no others besides Him. You are talking about God who is everything and trying to say that He is broken down into three persons. That is putting limits on an all-powerful God isn't it?

Well, likewise, isn't saying that God is not something placing limitations on Him? God never states anywhere in the Bible that, "I am not three." Saying, "I am one," is not saying, "I am not three." That's arguing from a negative, which can't be done.

You see, you are addressing only one aspect of the Trinity - that He is one, and ignoring the other aspect - that He is also three-one.

Ask yourself why there is unity in plurality/plurality in unity in the Bible, and then try to argue from that negative standpoint. It can't be done, because these are two sides of the same truth. There are four gospels, are there not? Why would God inspire the writing of four gospels instead of just one? Obviously God could have inspired only one writer to write one complete gospel; yet He chose four.

There are at least four aspects of the Christ as the Savior: In Matthew He is the King Savior - the one anointed by God, selected from the line of David, to establish His heavenly Kingdom on the earth. In Mark He is the Slave Savior, the One who willingly laid aside His divinity to serve man, to obediently go to the cross to accomplish redemption for us. In Luke He is the Man Savior. He is the One who came in the image of corruptible man, yet without sin, and as part of the old creation died for all of those who bear the image of the corruptible. Finally, in John Jesus is the God-Savior. He is the Word of God, who was from the beginning God, through Whom all things were created and all things came into being. He is the incarnation of the eternal God - God in the flesh.

These four aspects of the Christ are revealed to us in the four gospels; yet the Christ, Jesus, is one Person. There are so many other examples of unity in plurality/plurality in unity in the Bible: From the heavenly manna, to the ark of the covenant, to the tabernacle, to the temple, and all the way to the New Jerusalem in the book of Revelation. In each and every one of these things there is unity and there is plurality. Therefore, we can only conclude that, from the evidences of Scripture, these things point directly to the nature of God - who He is, and how He is. To ignore the evidence of one is forsaking the evidence of the other, and you are not completely in the truth.

I would beg to differ with you that body, soul, and spirit are three in one because you can separate the soul and spirit at death. The body is not living yet the soul is still alive. Now you have one as being one since I see the soul and spirit as together. They each play a role for us as human beings. Yet when the one dies the other still lives apart from it. That is why when Jesus comes back to complete His work on earth, there will be no more need for the Sonship and God will be all in all once again. Your approach is a good one but not one that makes a trinity of God any more prevalent.

Actually evidence from Scripture indicates that the soul and the spirit are separate, although they are both closely associated with another. Were it so that the soul and the spirit are one, then there wouldn't have been verses written like, "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb. 4:12), and, "And the God of Peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) (Bolds added for emphasis on each verse).

So, actually, "soul" and "spirit" are not interchangable terms. The Scriptures show in many places that the human soul and the human spirit are separate parts of our being, with different functions. In your answer you used Ecclesiastes 12:7, which is probably one of the most misused verses; it says, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Notice that is says, "...and the spirit returns to God..." It does not say, "..and the soul returns to God, or, "...and the soul/spirit returns to God." The Hebrew word used is "Ruwach" which corresponds (is the same as) the Greek word used in the new Testament (pneuma).

But *sigh* I wrote earlier that I didn't want to get into the semantic of this (If you want to learn more about what I just wrote, try reading through THIS website). You still agree with me that you are a plural being! And if you are a plural being then that must say something about the One who created you!

You never did answer my earlier question about whether I should call you "He," "she," or, "it," by the way.

[Brother Chad]

Assuming that your answer is yes, do you deny that there is unity in plurality/ plurality in unity in nature? If there is, then shouldn't that aspect of creation also reveal the same about the God that created it all? If we humans were created with a body, a soul, and a spirit, which are all separate parts of our being (And yet are also all one within ourselves), and we were created in the image (mirror reflection) and likeness (inner aspects) of God, then how can it be that God is not also a plural being as well?

He isn't a plural being because He says that He is not. He says that He is one. That there are no others besides Him. You are talking about God who is everything and trying to say that He is broken down into three persons. That is putting limits on an all-powerful God isn't it?

Well, likewise, isn't saying that God is not something placing limitations on Him? God never states anywhere in the Bible that, "I am not three." Saying, "I am one," is not saying, "I am not three." That's arguing from a negative, which can't be done.

You see, you are addressing only one aspect of the Trinity - that He is one, and ignoring the other aspect - that He is also three-one.

Ask yourself why there is unity in plurality/plurality in unity in the Bible, and then try to argue from that negative standpoint. It can't be done, because these are two sides of the same truth. There are four gospels, are there not? Why would God inspire the writing of four gospels instead of just one? Obviously God could have inspired only one writer to write one complete gospel; yet He chose four.

There are at least four aspects of the Christ as the Savior: In Matthew He is the King Savior - the one anointed by God, selected from the line of David, to establish His heavenly Kingdom on the earth. In Mark He is the Slave Savior, the One who willingly laid aside His divinity to serve man, to obediently go to the cross to accomplish redemption for us. In Luke He is the Man Savior. He is the One who came in the image of corruptible man, yet without sin, and as part of the old creation died for all of those who bear the image of the corruptible. Finally, in John Jesus is the God-Savior. He is the Word of God, who was from the beginning God, through Whom all things were created and all things came into being. He is the incarnation of the eternal God - God in the flesh.

These four aspects of the Christ are revealed to us in the four gospels; yet the Christ, Jesus, is one Person. There are so many other examples of unity in plurality/plurality in unity in the Bible: From the heavenly manna, to the ark of the covenant, to the tabernacle, to the temple, and all the way to the New Jerusalem in the book of Revelation. In each and every one of these things there is unity and there is plurality. Therefore, we can only conclude that, from the evidences of Scripture, these things point directly to the nature of God - who He is, and how He is. To ignore the evidence of one is forsaking the evidence of the other, and you are not completely in the truth.

I would beg to differ with you that body, soul, and spirit are three in one because you can separate the soul and spirit at death. The body is not living yet the soul is still alive. Now you have one as being one since I see the soul and spirit as together. They each play a role for us as human beings. Yet when the one dies the other still lives apart from it. That is why when Jesus comes back to complete His work on earth, there will be no more need for the Sonship and God will be all in all once again. Your approach is a good one but not one that makes a trinity of God any more prevalent.

Actually evidence from Scripture indicates that the soul and the spirit are separate, although they are both closely associated with another. Were it so that the soul and the spirit are one, then there wouldn't have been verses written like, "For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb. 4:12), and, "And the God of Peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) (Bolds added for emphasis on each verse).

So, actually, "soul" and "spirit" are not interchangable terms. The Scriptures show in many places that the human soul and the human spirit are separate parts of our being, with different functions. In your answer you used Ecclesiastes 12:7, which is probably one of the most misused verses; it says, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Notice that is says, "...and the spirit returns to God..." It does not say, "..and the soul returns to God, or, "...and the soul/spirit returns to God." The Hebrew word used is "Ruwach" which corresponds (is the same as) the Greek word used in the new Testament (pneuma).

But *sigh* I wrote earlier that I didn't want to get into the semantic of this (If you want to learn more about what I just wrote, try reading through THIS website). You still agree with me that you are a plural being! And if you are a plural being then that must say something about the One who created you!

You never did answer my earlier question about whether I should call you "He," "she," or, "it," by the way.

You can just call me they since I am obviously in your eyes three in one!

[Brother Chad]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God not another person of God. They didn't understand that God manifested Himself in flesh. Not that there were three persons in God. There is plurality in the Godhead but it is one of roles or functions that the one God uses and not three persons. If three persons then tritheism.

[Brother Chad]

How do you present the Gospel to people who don't believe in:

1. Jesus as the Messiah

2. THe Trinity?

Deuteronomy 6:4 (original meaning of course)

I Timothy 3:16

Ephesians 1:6-7

I John 2:1

John 3:16

Acts 2:38

There is obviously more but that would be a good start for any new believer.

[Ovedya]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be God not another person of God. They didn't understand that God manifested Himself in flesh. Not that there were three persons in God. There is plurality in the Godhead but it is one of roles or functions that the one God uses and not three persons. If three persons then tritheism.

And if only one, then modalism. So who was running the universes when God came down to be a man?

Edited February 2, 2006 by Ovedya

[EricH]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

Who wrote this verse of scripture? They didn't understand what they were writing?

Moses wrote it. He also wrote the passages in Genesis that described the plurality of the God-head active in creation. So I think Moses did understand. It is those that came after him that perverted the meaning.

[Brother Chad]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

Who wrote this verse of scripture? They didn't understand what they were writing?

Moses wrote it. He also wrote the passages in Genesis that described the plurality of the God-head active in creation. So I think Moses did understand. It is those that came after him that perverted the meaning.

Yes namely the Trinitarians after Jesus death and resurrection. There is no plurality in creation. I know you speak of Genesis 1:26 and in verse 27 what does "Moses" write:

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Brother Chad

[Ovedya]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

Who wrote this verse of scripture? They didn't understand what they were writing?

Moses wrote it. He also wrote the passages in Genesis that described the plurality of the God-head active in creation. So I think Moses did understand. It is those that came after him that perverted the meaning.

Yes namely the Trinitarians after Jesus death and resurrection. There is no plurality in creation. I know you speak of Genesis 1:26 and in verse 27 what does "Moses" write:

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Still more unity in plurality: So God created man (plural) in His own image (singular)...

[Brother Chad]

Do you even realize that the Jews believe the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is one of their most sacred verses and they don't believe that there are three persons in one God?

The Jews also don't believe Jesus is their Messiah. They might have missed some things. In fact that is the reason they rejected Jesus was His claims to be on an equal par with the Father: Their misunderstanding of the Shema and its implications forced them to reject the idea that Jesus could be God

Who wrote this verse of scripture? They didn't understand what they were writing?

Moses wrote it. He also wrote the passages in Genesis that described the plurality of the God-head active in creation. So I think Moses did understand. It is those that came after him that perverted the meaning.

Yes namely the Trinitarians after Jesus death and resurrection. There is no plurality in creation. I know you speak of Genesis 1:26 and in verse 27 what does "Moses" write:

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Still more unity in plurality: So God created man (plural) in His own image (singular)...

So how does this make a case for a tri-une God?

[Ovedya]

Uh...Have you been here the whole time?

Go back and re-read through a couple of my last responses; especially that last big one that you only responded to with a short sentence (even though I asked at least three questions in it).