The Trinity?

[Guest NewPilgrim]

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This to me seems like an opportune time to make it known at creation that they created man in their own image.

Exactly as he did in verse26. Verse 27, as you'll note is a narrative, an external description of the same event, referring once more to God as "elohiym" (the powers) the term which in itself suggests plurality, or more specifically to the topic, trinity.

The obstacle that many "oneness" protagonists face is this "I just dont get it" view of Gods trinity> "How can he be one and be three? its just not possible" Yet it is. In fact, it SIMPLY is. God is who he says he is, certainly not bound by our simple understanding of Math and limitation. God indicates that he is one and three and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I have always found it the most natural thing to understand about God, I find it remarkably easy to see and accept. Its just who he is

[Joe@actsii]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

Actually it is true. Jesus never claimed to be the Father. He claimed to be one with the Father (one in diety). What you are essentially posing here is modalism. It states that because God is one, He could not possibly exist in 3 persons. So modalism posits that each of the persons of the God-head is not a person, but is a modal expression of God. God appeared as the Son. God functions as the Spirit. This view stresses the unity of God (which is a good thing), but ignores passages that describe members of the trinity interacting with one another(for example the Son praying to the Father). Currently there is only one non-catholic denomination that holds to this position: the United Pentecostal Church.

There is also more then one non-catholic denomination the believes and teaches the Oneness. Here are just a few.

Links removed by moderator

[Joe@actsii]

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This to me seems like an opportune time to make it known at creation that they created man in their own image.

Exactly as he did in verse26. Verse 27, as you'll note is a narrative, an external description of the same event, referring once more to God as "elohiym" (the powers) the term which in itself suggests plurality, or more specifically to the topic, trinity.

The obstacle that many "oneness" protagonists face is this "I just dont get it" view of Gods trinity> "How can he be one and be three? its just not possible" Yet it is. In fact, it SIMPLY is. God is who he says he is, certainly not bound by our simple understanding of Math and limitation. God indicates that he is one and three and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I have always found it the most natural thing to understand about God, I find it remarkably easy to see and accept. Its just who he is

NewPilgrim, let me try to put it a way that will make a little more sense. The way you feel about the Trinity and the Oneness is often the same way we feel. Let me use your own words to show you what I mean. I want you to know that I am not trying to make fun of you, only help you see my view.

The obstacle that many "Trinitarian" protagonists face is this "I just don

[EricH]

For me, Jesus' proclamation was enough.

When He said that the Father is the ONLY true God... that's very much enough.

Lord Jesus, the Son, precisely is not the Father...

The Father is the ONLY true God (according to Jesus Himself)...

Therefore, the Son (nor the holy spirit), is definitely not the TRUE God.

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

Actually it is true. Jesus never claimed to be the Father. He claimed to be one with the Father (one in diety). What you are essentially posing here is modalism. It states that because God is one, He could not possibly exist in 3 persons. So modalism posits that each of the persons of the God-head is not a person, but is a modal expression of God. God appeared as the Son. God functions as the Spirit. This view stresses the unity of God (which is a good thing), but ignores passages that describe members of the trinity interacting with one another(for example the Son praying to the Father). Currently there is only one non-catholic denomination that holds to this position: the United Pentecostal Church.

There is also more then one non-catholic denomination the believes and teaches the Oneness. Here are just a few.

Links removed by moderator

If you look at those denominations, they all come from the single break with the Assemblies of God. They are basically Pentecostal Oneness

[Joe@actsii]

They may all be Oneness Pentecostal, but they are different orginazations or denominations.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Joe, I understand what you are saying, and I take no umbridge to your statement, I do see the similarities. The difference that I guess I'm trying to put across is that I have no problem with the pinciple of one=one. And indeed God says he is

one God. However, the "oneness" difficulty in understanding is the 1=3 concept, but the trinity of God is not that "linear" o in fact that complex lol. He is indeed one God and his nature is triune, he is one triune God. You may perhaps be ofay with this principal, I'm not sure, but I know there are many "oneness" protagonists who aren't.

(NB I hope no-one takes my common use of the word "protagonist" to mean someone in an offensive/hostile position. Not intended as such )

If Yahweh was not triune and gav no such indication, sure no, problem for me. I wouldnt be looking for a triune God. But if you know and feel the presence of God (which I'm sure you do joe) ultimately you will know his true nature, which is brought to ones attention many times in scripture as we are currently discussing. On of the biggest affirmations (if you like) for me is that Creation speaks of him and creation itself is triune in nature, something I have pointed out in more detail in a couple other posts. If you want the links, let me know and I'll get for you

In the meantime a few eg's:

DNA

States of matter

Nature of the Atom

Earthly domains

[Unico]

The statement of Jesus not being the Father is not all together true. Jesus specifically said that "the Father and I are one" and "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus was both fully man and fully devine. He was God manifested in flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) He was not God the Son, He was the Son of God in His humanity and He was God the Father in His divinity.

No. When Jesus clearly points out that "the Father is greater than I" and "there are TWO who testify - the Son and the Father"; also, Jesus was praying to the Father... it is clear, definite, and concise that Jesus [the Son] is not the Father -- and the Father is not the Son.

Jesus proclaimed indeed that "the Father and I are one" (in John 10:30) but the context is not about Jesus' being God. It was about the common purpose of the Father and Jesus Christ -- They are one [not of being God] but one in purpose or in accord -- which is to take care of the flock (John 10:28-29).

Edited January 23, 2006 by Unico

[Unico]

Currently there is only one non-catholic denomination that holds to this position: the United Pentecostal Church.

No comment on that, since I'm not aware of the UPC doctrines.

[Unico]

Exactly as he did in verse26. Verse 27, as you'll note is a narrative, an external description of the same event, referring once more to God as "elohiym" (the powers) the term which in itself suggests plurality, or more specifically to the topic, trinity.

The obstacle that many "oneness" protagonists face is this "I just dont get it" view of Gods trinity> "How can he be one and be three? its just not possible" Yet it is. In fact, it SIMPLY is. God is who he says he is, certainly not bound by our simple understanding of Math and limitation. God indicates that he is one and three and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I have always found it the most natural thing to understand about God, I find it remarkably easy to see and accept. Its just who he is

Actually, Elohim is a plural itself. But it appears in many usage and form and not exclusive to God alone. It appears in both singular and plural usage. Singular, in the sense that it is really one in number. Plural, in the sense that it is used as emphasis or in plural number... but never in the sense that the noun being referred to by the Elohim is a compound nature or a "uniplural" form.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Unico

[Unico]

It's just that, there is no Biblical proof of the Trinity.

The Bible is not saying that the 'Three' are equal in any ways.

The Father is always greater than Jesus... that's what Jesus Christ Himself told us.

Yet, in Trinity, "none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another."